Hey Guys,

I was out shooting my Krieghoff 9.3 today.....did I tell you how much I love this rifle?.....oh, anyway, I was shooting it at 25 yards and 75 yards. Although I've fired it a few times, today is the first time I've actually put it on serious paper at a real range. Anyway, like I was saying, I shot two rounds of S&B 286's and they hit about an inch and half apart at twenty five yards BUT, they were about four inches BELOW the point of aim.

SO, I then fired two more at 75 yards and they were still an inch or so apart but then they were 8 inches below my point of aim. Now, I know I should try some other ammo first before I start anything, but I was just wondering if there is something I should be looking for other than the ammo. The gun is used but in perfect condition just like it came from the factory. I can't imagine what would be wrong with it, but I don't know as much about doubles as you guys do, so I'm asking what you all think about this.

Do you think its the ammo?

Do you think I need to do some adjusting with the barrel wedge up front?

Do you think I should do something else?

Please let me know your thoughts on this one. I'm totally confused.....

Thanks for your time.

Do you have a flip-up longer range rear sight?

Sounds like it is regulated (both barrels hitting close together) with your ammo. Correction will likely involve a higher rear sight, or a lower front sight, or taking a fuller bead on your aim.

Probably should shoot some more rounds using different shooting positions and rests before making any changes.

I agree. How far apart are the centers of the muzzles? This is how far apart the holes in the target should be, assuming perfect shooting and perfect regulation.

Elevation of POI, so long as both rounds impact at the same height and together doesn't really matter in load development. Just get the barrels shooting together and then change front blade height and you'll be in business. Sounds like you're not too far off now.

JPK

Are you using 6 o'clock hold or a dead-on hold? Either way elevation issues are easy to solve.

Hey Thanks guys. Now I feel much better. For a minute, I thought the gun was messed up or something. The gun only has one rear sight. It doesn't have an extra flip up. I was using a sight picture with the front sight right dead center of the target. I like your suggestions about using more of the front sight as well as trying other makes of ammo. Thanks guys. That was a big help.

If anyone has any other ideas, I'm still open to suggestions.

The way you hold/rest your rifle matters too. Doubles should not be shot, resting on sandbags. Hold on to the forearm and rest your hand + no sandbag under the stock, rest your elbow instead. British makers used to test-shoot their double rifles from a standing rest, so as not to interfere with recoil as experienced in the field.

quote:

Originally posted by Andre Mertens:
The way you hold/rest your rifle matters too. Doubles should not be shot, resting on sandbags. Hold on to the forearm and rest your hand + no sandbag under the stock, rest your elbow instead. British makers used to test-shoot their double rifles from a standing rest, so as not to interfere with recoil as experienced in the field.

This is a good pint. You need to hold the forend and not rest it, or any part of the rifle on bags.

JPk

the .286 gr S&B sp's shoot nice in my chapuis DR... since i scoped the rifle, i have it 1" hi at 50...

I too, got seriopus about regulating and years ago, purchased a mother of God STURDY camera rest from"Majesic" The center column is 2.75" in dia. adjustments are up, down, tilt...etc...you name it. Made a rest out of 2x12 with appropriate padded areas and man...can you hold a double steady with this rig.. standing up and holding the rifle in hands approximates off hand about a close as possible...not cheap...the set up cost me over $800.00 maybe 20 yrs ago....and it's portable! money well spent!

Well, here's an update. I took the gun out and shot it today. My first rounds were to see if I could get it on paper at 25. I was still 8 inches low. I changed my sight picture and it was still low, just not as low.

My second set was at 50 yards. I was shooting at the Caldwell Orange peel targets with 8 inch black bullseyes and orange all around them. You've seen these on tv, they're the ones that turn orange when you hit them. Well at 50 yards I had to hold the gun at the top of that 8 inch black bull to hit anywere in the bottom of the bull. So, I put on a Leupold 1.4 x 5 scope.

With the scope on, I was hitting about four inches to the right of point of aim with the right barrel and four inches to the left of the point of aim with the left barrel.

My next targets were at 75 yards. I was hitting the orange targets but I was hitting about three inches to the upper right of the point of aim with the right barrel and three inches to the left at 9 oclock with the left barrel.

After firing 24 rounds just to get it to this point, I stopped. I'm not sure if the problem is me, the ammo, the gun, the scope, the weather (which was great!) or what.

I changed up ammo while doing all this shooting. I started out shooting Norma 286 Alaskans and then went to S&B 285's. I did not see any change at all. They all seemed to print about the same place.

Now this is the SECOND time I've been out to shoot this gun and I still can't hit what I would consider even close to being able to harvest an animal.

Does ANYONE have any ideas of what I'm doing wrong, or what I should do next. I'm getting depressed rapidly and wondering if I've made a mistake buying this gun.

Don't get me wrong, I love this gun. However, if I can't hit anything with it, it's just a nice thing to look at.

ANY and ALL suggestions or tips will be highly appreciated!!!!!

Thanks for your time.

Since it appears that you do not reload, if the gun continues to shoot this way, I would pack it up and send it, along with $600.00 and three boxes of whatever your favorite ammo/load combo is, to Champlin Arms. They will regulate the gun and send it back in a couple of weeks and all will be well.

Geronimo

Hey Thanks Geronomo,

I appreciate your help with this. I do reload for other cartridges, but have not purchased a set of dies for the 9.3x74 yet. Would reloading change anything that I'm experiencing?

I would love to fix this problem without a whole lot of expense. However, if I need to send it off to someone, I guess I should consider it.

I want to keep this gun, but like I said, if I can't hit anything with it, then why waist your time.

In my shooting session that I had today, my sight picture was a fine bead on the dead center of my 8 inch diameter black bull. My rounds printed almost 8 inches low of the center. The right barrel was at about 5 oclock and the left barrel was at about 7 oclock. They were about four to five inches apart.

I raised my sights up to the top of the bull and my rounds hit around the outside of the bull, but still at about 8 inchese lower than my point of aim.

I couldn't get the gun to do too much better when I put the scope on it. I put my Leupold on it and I thought things would get better. The rounds came up after a few adjustments, but they still printed six to eight inches apart out to 75 yards.

I never shot it at 100 yards, so I don't know how it would have printed there. I stopped after having fired 24 rounds from 25, 50 and 75 yards.

I really want to keep this gun, but I'm beginning to wonder if it's a waist of time and money. So, with that being said, am I being to impatient about all this? OR am I being logically minded by thinking about cutting my losses and moving on to another gun after I sell this one?

I appreciate all your thoughts, comments, ideas, suggestions, etc. At this point, all suggestions are helpful, appreciated, considered worthwhile, and respected.

Thanks for your time.

I will buy your gun but then I will feel guilty and your will feel remorse in the long run.

First, DON'T WORRY ABOUT ELEVATION!! This is easily corrected with a front blade/bead height change after you get your barrels shooting together.

Looking at your targets would be helpful, if you can post them.

Are you sure the loads you've shot are spreading rather than crossing?

I read your post to say that with a scope you get the same sprad/cross as without. This is great news!!

Don't surrender, your close to gettting all perfect. But get the dies!!

JPK

Thanks JPK,

I might have mispoken....miswritten what the shots were actually doing. They do appear as if they are getting closer the farther out I go with them. And shooting with the scope did bring the shots up into the bullseye. However, that was about the best I could get with the scope. I finally got tired and after the 24th round figured I should give it a rest for the day. Then I started shooting my Marlin .357 magnum rifle......big difference there!!

Anyway, you post and info are very incouraging. I wonder where I could get a new front sight? Would I have to go to or get in touch with Krieghoff for that? OR is there someone else I can contact? I've heard there are authorized gunsmiths that take care of Krieghoffs, is that true?

I sure do hope I can salvage this situation.

Thanks for the positive feed back. Your info is very helpful.

Take Care!

Here is my best advice. It will seem that you are starting over, and that ain't wrong.

Shoot at 25yds. What does the horizontal spread look like, with and with out scope?

Now try at 50yds, same q's.

Now at 75yds, same q's.

This should resolve the question fo whether your rifle is shooting and crossing or shooting apart, with and without the scope.

This info is critical.

For front sight blades height, I'm sure Kreighoff offers what you need, but you can go to New England Custom guns and get them too.

Please try my approach, you need to issolate variables so pick one brand, weight... of ammo, which ever seems to shoot best. You need to chronograph the load too.

Then report back and the next step will become obvious (I hope and believe.)

Make sure you do your shooting while holding the forearm/barrels and not resting them on bags. You can rest your hand on the bags but you need to hold the forearm/barrels as if you were shooting off hand.

JPK

Thanks JPK,

I appreciate the info. I'll get to work on this and report back just as soon as I have results.

I truly appreciate your guidance in this situation. I was about to give up on the whole idea of owning and enjoying a double rifle.

My heart was set on this gun. I keep watching the "Bored to Death" and "Death by Double Rifle" videos and I keep wondering how those guys got so good with their guns. They seem to be able to shoot them "off-hand", standing, with and without sticks, and while running. What's really shocking is that they are real good at it and hit what they're shooting at. Then this happens to me and I'm wondering what's wrong with this picture?

Anyway, it's late, I should turn in and start working on this all over again tomorrow.

Thanks again.

dblhunter ,
I know your frustration ,many years ago I had an accuracy problem with a beautiful EGO in the same calibre, it was very well regulated , but for Norma 232 grains ammo..I was unable to get more of that and since I am a reloader , I started to reload , with very bad results. In these days I was an ignorant respect the mecanics of double rifles , I installed a scope ,but the problem of crossing and diverging shots, continue , I sold the rifle to a hunter that in his country will not have problems to acquire the correct ammo...Then I bought the book"The hammerless double rifle", and later "Shooting the British double rifle", then I understood many things.
If you have problems with crossing or diverging shots, I understand that Krieghoff rifles in your calibre comes with a muzzle wedge with some screws,those will be able to correct in the horizontal plane, in the vertical plane you can correct/change the scope and /or the iron sights.
It is a must that you shoot your rifle to see where each barrel is impacting. Use the scope. If one is impacting higher than the other then the problem is bigger. If both are impacting at the same level, the moving wedge should solve the problem. The manufacturer should provide you the instructions to use the regulating wedge. Remember than Krighoff , Blaser, and now Merkel mod. 141 comes with that gadget and they use it as a hook to sell more.

Wish you a lot of luck !
Pulki.

quote:

Originally posted by dblhunter:
Thanks JPK,

I might have mispoken....miswritten what the shots were actually doing. They do appear as if they are getting closer the farther out I go with them. And shooting with the scope did bring the shots up into the bullseye. However, that was about the best I could get with the scope. I finally got tired and after the 24th round figured I should give it a rest for the day. Then I started shooting my Marlin .357 magnum rifle......big difference there!!

Anyway, you post and info are very incouraging. I wonder where I could get a new front sight? Would I have to go to or get in touch with Krieghoff for that? OR is there someone else I can contact? I've heard there are authorized gunsmiths that take care of Krieghoffs, is that true?

I sure do hope I can salvage this situation.

Thanks for the positive feed back. Your info is very helpful.

Take Care!

I don't think any thing is wrong with your rifle. Double rifles are like a fine woman, it takes time to figure them out. They will frustrate you to no end in the process. But once you find the sweet spot....pure pleasure awaits.
There are some great resources on this site that will be more than willing to offer suggestions. I recomend doing some searches on shooting techniques as a place to start.

Good luck and stay with it!

quote:

Double rifles are like a fine woman, it takes time to figure them out. They will frustrate you to no end in the process. But once you find the sweet spot....pure pleasure awaits.

Man. Sounds like that trip to Africa was a little too long! The velvet is off the antlers and Roscoe is in the rut!

dblhunter,
Im new to regulating double rifles but two things that I lern:

1- shoot standing up right with minimum suport, I get the best groups standing by my truck and suporting only my front elbow. Bench shooting sometimes make two groups according how I rest my elbows.

2- shoot on to two targets side by side, one on the right for the right barrel and the other on the left for your left barrel. This way you really know witch is each barrel group. The make a composite group puting both targets together.

Hope this helps.

Martin

I have not understood how you are aligning your iron sights. If the rifle has a wide vee backsight, then your front bead should normally fit all the way down into the bottom of the vee, with the bottom round edges of the front bead seeming to be in contact with the sides of the vee but the whole bead visible. If you want to lower the group you raise the front bead out of the base of the vee and see daylight between the vee and the bead. If you want to raise the group you lower the front bead until the vee obscures part of it. Sorry if this is elementary to you, but we all need to be sure we are on the same page . You will put the point on the target you wish to hit just on top of the bead; for example, if you have an eight inch black bull and the center of 10-ring is white, go ahead and try with the white on top of the bead. (I can't see well enough at 100 to do that so I put a three inch orange spot in the middle of my black eight inch target.)

If you are holding properly, then you just need a lower front bead and can hopefully buy a new sight insert, as suggested. As I recall the Brownell's catalogue has a chart of insert sight heights for given distances between front and back sights that can guide you to how much lower to start with.

Follow JPK's suggestions to see where your barrels print horizontally at the various ranges and go out to 100 if you can. If the group from each barrel is really tight but your composite group is too large by a couple of inches (for me a six inch composite group at 100 yards is too big) you can likely handload to tighten it to three or four inches. Sounds as if you've got the background to try all this and use re-=regulation as the last resort.

Regards

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:

quote:

Double rifles are like a fine woman, it takes time to figure them out. They will frustrate you to no end in the process. But once you find the sweet spot....pure pleasure awaits.

Man. Sounds like that trip to Africa was a little too long! The velvet is off the antlers and Roscoe is in the rut!

I am always in the Rut!

RANGE REPORT!!!!

Hi Guys,

I just got back from the range. It's a good thing I learned how to read and comprehend some time ago. However, I don't always remember what I've read....So, here's what happened. I read a lot of great advice on what to do. One fellow suggested I start real close to see how the rounds are printing and work back from there. Another....or maybe it was the same one....suggested I put up two targets and shoot the right barrel at one and the left barrel at the other to see how they are printing......WELL, GUESS WHAT........I'M ON PAPER!!!!!!

Yep, that's right. I started hitting right off.....now I also owe this to another person who suggested that I change up my "sight picture"......I WAS shooting a "fine bead" on all my shots. So, I simply raised the front sight till it was even with the top of the rear sight and voila!!! Rounds started hitting where I was aiming!!!!!

I sat on the ground, and shot over a pair of "flip out", "fold-out" shooting bipods sticks...you've seen those that fold up to about a foot long....well, I pulled those out of my deer hunting back pack and took them with me.

I put the gun across the shooting bipod and held on to the front half like I was standing and shooting off hand. I guess the only contact would be the bipod right at the rear of the forend where it contacts the action. The gun shot totally different than what it did the last two times from a bench rest with sand bags, etc. What a difference.

Also, one of the guys suggested that I don't give up on her yet and shoot it alot before I form my opinion. Well, that's what I did today. I shot 24 rounds yesterday with S&B and Norma. Today, I fired 30 rounds mixed with S&B and RWS. I could not see a difference in the two at all. They appeared to hit about the same places.

In addition, I took the scope off and only shot with open sights. I shot REAL GOOD at 25 yards. I shot pretty good at 50 yards, and it took me a while to shoot good at 75. I guess my eyes aren't what they used to be. Anyway, I found out how the gun shoots now at each of those and I'm more confident in the gun than I was yesterday.....what a difference a day makes.

So, I've just about shot up all my ammo. I think I have six rounds of RWS left. I started out with four boxes. I guess now it's time to break down and buy some dies. They cost about the same as a box of ammo, but the return is in the future product.

I'll have to continue to follow your advice in shooting the gun more when I start reloading for it. I've read alot of great info on here about the different loads, etc. So, I'll just follow your suggestions and see what happens.

I owe most of this success to all who have contributed info and advice to my questions and concerns. I'm sure I would not have learned as quickly as I did if it were not for reading your posts and honoring your experience. I deeply appreciate all that you have done to help out. You are all a great bunch of guys.

Thanks alot!!

Take Care!!

Sounds like you found the sweet spot! Now it is time to start saving for your next double because like women....no real man can have only one!