Gentlemen of AR:
In my post of my elk hunt several raised the questions of the limitations of a double rifle. Now, by choice, I have only hunted with a double since 2003. Prior to that I used a double and also a bolt and sometimes a lever action. Doubles do have their limits. Accuracy, weight, open sights, and (of course) the cost. What else?

So, fellas, how about doubles? What do you see as their limitations and also what are doubles best used for, what are they marginal for, and what situations would you never use a double? Be specific and touch of the subject of open sights and a scoped double, please.

In my own experiences I has passed on shots that could have been easily made with a scoped bolt rifle, and also missed a few.

As an added plus, tell us what doubles you have hunted with and game taken with them.

What say you, gents?
Cheers,
Cal

I think an awful lot of limitations are in the mind . Now I am not rushing out to try a 1,000 yard shot with my 500 NE but they can easily handle shots much further than most think.

Jeff (Bwana Bunduki) and I started shootings at stumps about 300 yards away. Surprisingly , it was easier than we thought. It gave me a lot of confidence.

Weight is a definite problem .

Cal, I will never have the privilege of owning a double; I sired too many kids, and a subsequent divorce squashed many dreams, among them, owning a double.

But I would add that the ONLY drawback I can see would be caliber selection. Rifleman skill makes up for a lot, and I have to believe that you are quite familiar with the calibers you own, and as a result, you choose which one you will use based on where you will hunt, etc.

In summation, I think a double in the hands of an experienced marksman would be every bit as good as those of us with the conventional bolt action rifles.

There is an old saying out there: "Beware of the single rifle owner: he probably knows how to use it."

Interesting question Cal and if anybody can answer this it would be you but here are some thoughts

1 depends on animal and cover. Big African 3 of elephant, buffalo, and rhino I would prefer a double in dense close cover and for wounded. Weight is not an issue for me since I use a backpack style military hip holster. My .577 and Gibbs .505 are about the same weight. Taken buffalo with both and with .375&.470.

Open cover or longer shots I prefer my Gibbs. Penetration is also better and more retained velocity. More accurate with scope and groups off sticks about 3" at 300 yds. Also good for plains animals.

2. Plains game or deer, elk.

I have a 45-70 double at P loads for deer but that s because of Ohio law. Theoretically not that different than a 450-400, a good proven Africa double before the .375 H&H, but larger
diameter. Better than a slug gun and good practice for Africa, another reason why I bought it. However, given a chance I prefer one of my .375/404/.505 Gibbs rifles. I ve taken elk from 117 yds to 636 yds with one and mule deer in NM out to 805 yds with the second. Too far for double. I also prefer scoped 30-378 wby or Gibbs .505 for Plains game.

Interesting question. You've already covered most of the perceived limitations. For reasonable shooting distances, I wouldn't necessarily consider accuracy a limitation. My 470 can print composite groups at 100 yards, provided I do my part, that can rival most big-bore bolts. The limitation is that to be "accurate", the rifle really needs to only contact the shooters shoulder and the hand on the forearm. This limits some of the shooting positions (and accessories such as bi-pods) one might use on a bolt.

Weight is not a limitation in my opinion. For the typical calibers associated with doubles, one would typically want a similar weight in a bolt. I prefer all my guns to be heavy for stability and recoil management, so a 10 - 12 lb double is no different than my 10 - 12 lb bolts.

I do view open sights as a limitation, especially as I get older. I tried a scope on a previous double, but the weight effected the point of impact too much. I've since settled on the red dot sights (Docter and Trijicon RMR). For the distances I prefer to be within (100 yards or less), the red dot is perfect. My youngest son (teenager) can nail steel silhouettes with open sites (Heym 450) at 135 yards repeatedly.

There is nothing faster for a second shot, aside from an auto or semi-auto. I feel the double is the best rifle for elephant, period. I also feel it is the best choice for wounded game follow-up.

Provided you're willing to wait and get close enough to ensure a clear, clean shot - a double for buffalo is great as well. For the cats and crocs, given many will come with marginal or added light, or sitting or prone shooting positions, the double, even with a red dot, may not be the best choice.

Cost is major limitation. One can acquire quite the collection of bolts for a fraction of the cost of a single, quality double.

All-weather capability. Many are celebrating Heym's new 89B - the "English version" of this German creation. I'm the opposite - form follows function, and one of these days my 88 PH is going to be coated with an all-weather treatment and the cracked (thanks to SAA), upgraded walnut stock will be replaced with a laminated version.

In response to your "added plus", my boys and I have hunted with a Searcy (470), Chapuis (9.3 X 74R and 450/400) and Heym (470 and 450). Tried a Sabatti, but it didn't make it long enough to hunt with. We presently have the 2 Heyms. We've taken elephant, buffalo, zebra, whitetail, axis, blackbuck as well as a backup shot in a lion.

The biggest burden of a double is on my heart.

Every time I see a nice one or even a photo of one, my heart takes off at 300% .

Every time I get a chance to shoot one, my head also goes into a trance.

Worst of all is the effect it has on me because I do not own one.

How I wish for that daily dose of the piece of art and craft in my hands - the wood, the steel, the well worn patina, the balance of instinctively pointing it - of a fine English double.

Even an old BPE hammer would do - particularly an Alex Henry!

Oooooh my heart!

Biggest limitation on a double rifle for me is my shooting

Followed by my eyesight with fine beads!

Let's see now. . .
Weaker action as compared to a bolt rifle. Really designed to shoot only one weight bullet over a specific powder charge.
Originally designed for dangerous game hunting by assuring two large caliber bullets delivered in tropical heat and ease of reloading without jamming.

Lots of limitations that most shooters of double rifle seem to over come. I guess that's why double rifles are still being made and improved. And why those created over a century ago are still in demand and use!

My experience with doubles is limited but I have taken Mule Deer, elk, Kudu and Cape Buffalo with the few that I have. One, my Chapuis 9.3x74 wears a Leupold 4 X scope. The others a Turner 500-450 BPE a C&H 577 BPE and a James Lange 577 BPE all have open sights. The limitation of open sights has become a problem at my tender age of 71 hence the scope on the Chapuis. Last year I used the C&H for the Kudu and buffalo and while I got the job done it would have been much easier with my scoped 375 or 416. Accuracy at open sight range for me has not been a problem when I can see the sights. Under the right conditions, meaning good light from behind, I would not hesitate to take a deer or elk out to 200 yards with the C&H as it is a remarkably accurate rifle. When the range exceeds 150 yards or the light is bad in dark timber I really want a scoped rifle and it would normally be a bolt gun.

I find the only real drawback with a quality double rifle is PRICE, even though I am aware of the justification for that cost!

The fact that ones eyesight begins to fail with age, and the mounting of glass becomes a necessity for some folks. I am right handed and in my 80th year of life, and have developed Macular degeneration in my right eye requiring the addition of at least a Docter-Optic or a low powered illuminated scope on my doubles has become a necessity. Again the only draw back, to that is,IMO, also cost.

I hunt almost exclusively with double rifles and cape guns these days for just about everything I hunt other than P-dogs, and have not found the double to be a drawback for hunting even in open country of west Texas and New Mexico where shots are often cross canyon for muledeer, and elk.

Now in Alaska I use my Whitworth bolt 375H&H in a synthetic stock, a 3-9 scope and iron sights because of the incessant rain in September when I hunt there! If the weather there was dry I would certainly use my doubles.

....................................................................

I'm not aware of double rifles having limitations.



Now, I freely admit there are shooters of double rifles with limitations.



For some reason, a couple of them by the name George and Jon come to mind!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I'm not aware of double rifles having limitations.



Now, I freely admit there are shooters of double rifles with limitations.



For some reason, a couple of them by the name George and Jon come to mind!

................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I'm not aware of double rifles having limitations.



Now, I freely admit there are shooters of double rifles with limitations.



For some reason, a couple of them by the name George and Jon come to mind!

George and Jon maybe twins. They have much in common and do look somewhat alike.
Cal

I'm not convinced that a good double gives any ground to a bolt rifle at normal hunting ranges (300yds or closer) with normal acceptable hunting accuracy.
My old scoped Genossenschaft 7x65R could easily kill an elk at 300yds and my Alex Henry 500bpe can hit a 24x16" gong at two hundred with open sights (with the left barrel anyway).
My guess is that at least one of a doubles barrels would be pretty accurate even if it didn't regulate that well at those ranges.

Rifles are tools. Some tools are better for certain jobs than other tools. If you need to dig a big hole, use a regular shovel not a sharpshooter. A double is great for reasonably close shots, particularly on dangerous game in thick cover. For long shots in more open country, a scoped bolt is a better tool. I think being wed to one tool is a mistake. It leads to lost opportunities or worse wounded and lost game. Use what makes sense based on the application. Doubles have their limitations and it is not heresy to admit the same.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Rifles are tools. Some tools are better for certain jobs than other tools. If you need to dig a big hole, use a regular shovel not a sharpshooter. A double is great for reasonably close shots, particularly on dangerous game in thick cover. For long shots in more open country, a scoped bolt is a better tool. I think being wed to one tool is a mistake. It leads to lost opportunities or worse wounded and lost game. Use what makes sense based on the application. Doubles have their limitations and it is not heresy to admit the same.

Exactly, Mike. I have been wed only to doubles since 2003 and my game bag would be much larger had I shot my scoped .375 Cogswell. That said, it was my choice and gladly accepted. There is also a joy from taking a challenge and being successful--such as a bow hunter who must stalk much closer than an open sighted double rifle hunter (I do not include the bow hunters that sits in blind close to the only waterhole on a fenced property). True bow hunters have my utmost respect. What they to to get close as absolutely amazing.
Cal

Have had truly remarkable DR's, average ones and so-so ones.

The remarkable guns are as accurate as any standard "hunting" rifle- not purpose built long-range rifles.

Dependent on the gun and the shooter, these particular DR's could be successfully used exclusively at the classic hunting distances , i.e. to 350/400 yrs.

With the gun media's fascination of late on 800 to 1000 yd hunting-- not the DR's forte, the argument for a bolt gun escalates rapidly.

quote:

Originally posted by Clan_Colla:
Have had truly remarkable DR's, average ones and so-so ones.

The remarkable guns are as accurate as any standard "hunting" rifle- not purpose built long-range rifles.

Dependent on the gun and the shooter, these particular DR's could be successfully used exclusively at the classic hunting distances , i.e. to 350/400 yrs.

With the gun media's fascination of late on 800 to 1000 yd hunting-- not the DR's forte, the argument for a bolt gun escalates rapidly.

Really, CC?
I once saw and handled a Boswell .577 bpe with sights out to 1200 yards!!
Cal

A .577 bpe to 1200 yards. Must have been a tang rear sight. With a trajectory of a mortar, I can't visualize a 1200 yard leaf.

All of the deer and elk I've killed at about 80 yards or less. I shot a few deer and 1 elk with a double and didn't feel unduly handicapped. That said, I still think a scoped bolt rifle is a better choice. I am scoping a 7 x 57r double, we'll see how that works.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Rifles are tools. Some tools are better for certain jobs than other tools. If you need to dig a big hole, use a regular shovel not a sharpshooter. A double is great for reasonably close shots, particularly on dangerous game in thick cover. For long shots in more open country, a scoped bolt is a better tool. I think being wed to one tool is a mistake. It leads to lost opportunities or worse wounded and lost game. Use what makes sense based on the application. Doubles have their limitations and it is not heresy to admit the same.

Agreed. There are very few who can shoot a double accurately at distance and neither do they want to.

My double is sighted in at 25 yards and here there are no limitations.

I like to hunt up close,max out maybe 100-150 yrds,never felt any limitations at that distance with my double rifles,I do like to shoot at the range all the way to 200 yrds for fun,& have taken a pig @ 250 yrds,so I think what game & your style of hunting will dictate what your limitations are,if any for your application.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by Clan_Colla:
Have had truly remarkable DR's, average ones and so-so ones.

The remarkable guns are as accurate as any standard "hunting" rifle- not purpose built long-range rifles.

Dependent on the gun and the shooter, these particular DR's could be successfully used exclusively at the classic hunting distances , i.e. to 350/400 yrs.

With the gun media's fascination of late on 800 to 1000 yd hunting-- not the DR's forte, the argument for a bolt gun escalates rapidly.

Really, CC?
I once saw and handled a Boswell .577 bpe with sights out to 1200 yards!!
Cal

Have seen numerous guns from that period with long distance sights--
not many doubles though-
think the longest folding leaf set on a double, 6 leaves as I recall only went to 500 yds

Interesting reading--
http://home.earthlink.net/~sha...yHook/SandyHook.html

http://blog.1800gunsandammo.co...4570-trapdoor-rifle/

The .577 bpe double I wrote of had leavs to 700 yards and a tangent from 8-1200.

A friend has a .600 with leaves to 700 yards!

Cal

Here is the reply I put on the American Hunting forum:

I love answering questions on my passion, double rifles.

There are a few limitations on double rifles. Those being:
1. weight
2. open sights
3. accuracy

Weight.
Doubles in comparable calibers will weigh 2-4 pounds over their bolt counterparts. Larger doubles are much heavier to soak up recoil such as my .600 at 16 pounds and my 4-bore double at 22 pounds (23 when loaded!). Weight makes is difficult to walk long distances--more so in the heat of Africa. The positive side is the weight soaks up the recoil and a heavier rifle is more steady when shooting. A double does not have the added weight of a long bolt action but the weight comes from the extra barrel and the size of the action to accept the barrel width at the breech or face.

Open sights.
Are definitely a factor in accurate and/or long range shooting. The vast majority of doubles are open sights with leaves marked for distance. Most common is a fixed or standing leaf for 100 yards and two folding for 200 and 300 yards. I've seen the first leaf as low as 25 yards and the longest range leaf to 1200 yards. Optimistic to say the least. A few doubles were scoped at the factory and some as after market. I own two scoped doubles now: a .450-400 with a Swarovski 1.25 to 4x 30mm and a Rigby .350 no2 with a Leupold VX3 1.5-5x. A year ago I sold a Holland and Holland Royal .500 with an ancient scope of 2 3/4 or 4x (I forget which).

Accuracy.
A double will never be as accurate at a single barrel rifle. When a rifle is fired it recoils up and back. When a double is fired it also recoils up and back but in addition the right barrels recoils to the right and the left barrel recoils to the left. Because of this, if the barrels were soldered parallel they would shoot apart. To compensate for this the barrels have a slight convergence when they are fastened together. This allows the barrels to group with acceptable accuracy. What is acceptable? Two inch groups at 50 yards is a good target for four shots. My .350 no2 Rigby is the best shooter I have and groups six shots into one inch. Three inches at 50 yards is about as big as one should get and larger than that the barrels should be re regulated or perhaps a different charge or type of powder to shrink the groups. All that said, generally, doubles are made to shoot one bullet weight, at one velocity for the best accuracy. Change the above and the physics of recoil changes and will, in turn, change the pattern of the target. Too fast a velocity will cause the barrels to crossfire and too slow a velocity will cause the group to be too wide. Before one spends the time and money to re regulate a double (about $1000 today plus shipping) one should play with the loading--both powder charge and burn rate of the powders--and try to get a good target at safe pressure levels. Usually, this can be done.

When a scope is mounted on a double it can be regulated for accuracy but that will decrease the accuracy when using open sights (the added weight changed how the rifle recoils). I have had doubles that were regulated to an acceptable level of accuracy with both the scope and open sights but they could be more accurate if regulated for one or the other. To solve the accuracy issue, I now sight the scope in for left barrel accuracy only (I shoot the rear trigger first), i.e. an accurate single shot. With the scope the right barrel shoots all over the place, but if take the scope off for close shooting then accuracy with both barrels is still there. My longest shot with the scoped .450-400 is a caribou at 195 yards, although most shots are much less both with and without a scope.

I hope this helps.
Cheers and good shooting to you.
Cal

Double Rifle?

I can't see why anyone would want one.

But by all means use whatever rifle blows you're skirt up.

It's a Kilt, laddie.

quote:

Originally posted by Clan_Colla:
It's a Kilt, laddie.

Per a couple of friends that wear such it's a kilt if you wear nothing under it. It's a dress if your wearing underwear.

It is a funny thing --what strikes our individual fancy.

Guess I have been largely an anglophile with respect to rifles since childhood;
that is, except when I stray to an Austrian or German mistress.

The Brits (and Scotts and Irish) truly sorted out the handling, pointability and aesthetics over 100 years ago.

From an 1840's Scottish Percussion stalking rifle , through the Martini,Greener and Farquharson singles,the Midland Enfield bolt sporters to the Queens of the hunt--the Double Rifles, the Brits consistently produced a rifle that came to the eye,weight in the hands and almost effortlessly settled into the correct mounted position.

Though I came to appreciate the British rifle as a pre-teen, I truly did not know the depth of the lust until, as a teenager, I traded my most prized possession, my 1967 SS396, for Wilkes.

Those of you that see no need for a DR, or , can't comprehend --
well you may never.

Those of us so afflicted will most likely continue despite your incredulity and lack of understanding.

Hunting with numerous DR's over the past 45 years has indeed been one of life's true pleasures for me-
perhaps not so for others

I like my choice , if you like your choice, so be it--
sort of like liverwurst or foie gras
each to their own

each may feed a hunger

quote:

Originally posted by Clan_Colla:
It is a funny thing --what strikes our individual fancy.

Guess I have been largely an anglophile with respect to rifles since childhood;
that is, except when I stray to an Austrian or German mistress.

The Brits (and Scotts and Irish) truly sorted out the handling, pointability and aesthetics over 100 years ago.

From an 1840's Scottish Percussion stalking rifle , through the Martini,Greener and Farquharson singles,the Midland Enfield bolt sporters to the Queens of the hunt--the Double Rifles, the Brits consistently produced a rifle that came to the eye,weight in the hands and almost effortlessly settled into the correct mounted position.

Though I came to appreciate the British rifle as a pre-teen, I truly did not know the depth of the lust until, as a teenager, I traded my most prized possession, my 1967 SS396, for Wilkes.

Those of you that see no need for a DR, or , can't comprehend --
well you may never.

Those of us so afflicted will most likely continue despite your incredulity and lack of understanding.

Hunting with numerous DR's over the past 45 years has indeed been one of life's true pleasures for me-
perhaps not so for others

I like my choice , if you like your choice, so be it--
sort of like liverwurst or foie gras
each to their own

each may feed a hunger

100%

So long as the barrels are correctly positioned & aligned and the trajectory and distance are known , then the only limitation is the shooter .

I use a combination gun a lot 7x65r Ok it's not a true double rifle - but it soon will be when a new liner barrel arrives.

Limitations - well a lot of sucking of teeth from the plastic stocked, biopodded moderated with Hubble telescope turret twiddling brigade - but I am confident in taking shots out 200 yards which is more than enough. I have taken Roe at 160 and foxes a bit further. Given its lack of weight it's not as steady as a bolt action rifle, nor as comfortable in a prone position. But in the real world it's easy enough to shoot well.

It's silent to load, unload and reload. I am sure deer are not overly worried about a bang, but rattle of a bolt sends them running.

Thin barrel soldered to the next is an issue. They heat up quickly and warp. It shoots very tight groups if the barrel is cold. A second and third quick shot will go 1" and the 4" high. 4th and 5th - anybodies guess. In 90% or 99% of hunting that's not an issue - one or two bullets is all you need. If you are doing a cull then that's the place for a magazine rifle. When I add the liner barrel I will four or five shots before heat moves them too far. But I am talking 100 yard range. I can hit side plate sized targets at 30 to 40 yards as fast as I can dump in ammo.

Bolt actions are slow to reload. Bolt actions with detacheable magazines are slower. With a double gun you can keep up a high rate of fire as long as you have cartridges handy - why do you use a double shotgun on driven pheasants. Yes it's tradition, but you can keep reloading.

Cost is a factor especially if playing around with changing scopes etc and you have claw mounts. But latest blazer, Merkel etc with swing mounts nor more or less costly than a top end bolt action mount system. And as to the cost of a double - yes more than a plain Jane bolt action, but once you get to higher end rifle, not a lot in it, especially if you like over and unders.

What Phil said.

One of my favorite stupid human tricks is to bang steel at 500 yards with my iron sighted .470.

I am NOT saying I'd shoot at game at that distance but after figuring out the holdover and cross at that distance I can hit an 18" plate pretty reliably. If not hitting it I can make the unwashed masses ohh and awe with a near miss.

All in the name of fun.

Gentlemen:
Allow me to break in here and, while you are discussing the merits of a double rifle (or lack thereof), let me invite you gents to our Alaska double rifle shoot on May 6 of next year. Surestrike, Phil, Clan, and Ted, and the rest of you, if you have the weekend free, have the air miles to spend, come on up. The regulars are most helpful in airport pickup (to avoid car rental) and a spare room (to avoid hotel charges).

We begin shooting at the Birchwood range at 10am, provide lunch at noon, and then shoot until folks decide to go home--maybe due to sore shoulders. We usually have 15 or so regulars and 20-30 folks who stop by. Several come from the Lower 48 and one from New Zealand. We have 40-50 doubles there from .350 up to .600 and black powder express rifles and bore rifles up to 4-bore (had three last shoot). Everyone is welcome to shoot the rifles and we don't charge for ammo or food. It's just a good time.

And, that evening we may have a cocktail party at Paul's house!!!!! Attend the party and take a redeye flight home.

So, consider you all invited!
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Gentlemen:
Allow me to break in here and, while you are discussing the merits of a double rifle (or lack thereof), let me invite you gents to our Alaska double rifle shoot on May 6 of next year. Surestrike, Phil, Clan, and Ted, and the rest of you, if you have the weekend free, have the air miles to spend, come on up. The regulars are most helpful in airport pickup (to avoid car rental) and a spare room (to avoid hotel charges).

We begin shooting at the Birchwood range at 10am, provide lunch at noon, and then shoot until folks decide to go home--maybe due to sore shoulders. We usually have 15 or so regulars and 20-30 folks who stop by. Several come from the Lower 48 and one from New Zealand. We have 40-50 doubles there from .350 up to .600 and black powder express rifles and bore rufles up to 4-bore (had three last shoot). Everyone is welcome to shoot the rifles and we don't charge for ammo or food. It's just a good time.

And, that evening we may have a cocktail party at Paul's house!!!!! Attend the party and take a redeye flight home.

So, consider you all invited!
Cal

I have a friend from Seattle likely coming up so our guest room is taken but if you are low maintenance I'm sure we could provide some others with shelter.

Cheers
Jim

I, too, have a room as well as a futon in the loft.
Cal

I'll put it in my schedule and see if I can make it work next year.

MAC, Larry, and the rest of you gents--you're all invited.
Cal

I'll have to pass.

A gathering of double rifle men is way above my class level rating.

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
I'll have to pass.

A gathering of double rifle men is way above my class level rating.

You'd be surprised on who they let in...

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
I'll have to pass.

A gathering of double rifle men is way above my class level rating.

You'd be surprised on who they let in...

That's hitting the nail on the head....in red

I have spent some time with the DR crowd.....

I have friends in lower places thanks but no thanks