quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
I'll have to pass.

A gathering of double rifle men is way above my class level rating .

I have one double rifle (sold Joyce's). I'm not sure how you think that may have changed me as a person but you are welcome to your opinion.

We also have full auto at the double shoots up here so there is that element of culture if you prefer.

The guy that bought Joyce's double works at the dock so I doubt he would fit your preconceived notions of double rifle ownership. Alaska can be odd that way. I know lots of "normal" people that own their own airplanes whereas in Missouri that might seem like a big deal.

Come on up Ted, we might surprise you.

Cheers
Jim

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
I'll have to pass.

A gathering of double rifle men is way above my class level rating.

You'd be surprised on who they let in...

That's hitting the nail on the head....in red

I have spent some time with the DR crowd.....

I have friends in lower places thanks but no thanks

Ted, what ever gave you the idea that folks who own and/or hunt with double rifles are anything special?

I was born in a ranch house during the depression, and am still just a country boy for all practical purposes. However, I like double rifles and like the guy who likes bass fishing who spends $20K for a bass boat, or the guy who likes four wheelers and pays $45K for four door Jeep and both work in a gas station, or in construction, and has to make payments for his LIKES is the same guy who saves for years to go to Alaska, or Africa. But he is still and country boy who considers himself no better than anyone on AR because of what he owns.

I simply don't see owning a $7 or 8K double rifle giving him a pass to the elite upper crust. I certainly am not a rich person, nor to I consider myself any better, or lower than anyone here no matter how much money or property they have. They probably worked for it! Anyone with a job can afford a double rifle if he wants one!

..................................................................You must not think much of yourself if you consider yourself less than anyone on AR!

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
I'll have to pass.

A gathering of double rifle men is way above my class level rating.

You'd be surprised on who they let in...

That's hitting the nail on the head....in red

I have spent some time with the DR crowd.....

I have friends in lower places thanks but no thanks

Hi Ted,

I assure you that you are way off base here. I know Cal, Rob, Mike Brooks, Jim And Joyce. They are all no different than you, salt of the earth.

I did an OZ Buffalo hunt with this rabble. We spent an afternoon fishing. Mike tossed a lure into an overhanging tree. I saw him climb up into that tree and make his way through a morass of tangled limbs overhanging this creek. All to retrieve a 1.00 lure. Is that the high minded attitude you would expect?

Rob is as down to earth as anyone I've ever met.

Cal....well, he's Cal.

I will do my very best to make this one. If I can make reservations in Cals loft or Jim and Joyce's place, I'll commit.

You should fly up and partake.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
I'll have to pass.

A gathering of double rifle men is way above my class level rating.

You'd be surprised on who they let in...

That's hitting the nail on the head....in red

I have spent some time with the DR crowd.....

I have friends in lower places thanks but no thanks

Hi Ted,

I assure you that you are way off base here. I know Cal, Rob, Mike Brooks, Jim And Joyce. They are all no different than you, salt of the earth.

I did an OZ Buffalo hunt with this rabble. We spent an afternoon fishing. Mike tossed a lure into an overhanging tree. I saw him climb up into that tree and make his way through a morass of tangled limbs overhanging this creek. All to retrieve a 1.00 lure. Is that the high minded attitude you would expect?

Rob is as down to earth as anyone I've ever met.

Cal....well, he's Cal.

I will do my very best to make this one. If I can make reservations in Cals loft or Jim and Joyce's place , I'll commit.

You should fly up and partake.

Steve

Steve you are welcome anytime. We have a friend from Whidbey Island likely flying up for this shoot and he already had dibs on our spare bed but that doesn't matter unless you are pickier than I think you are.

We have a very comfortable truck camper, couches, and a cot we can easily throw up to accommodate folks.

Cheers
Jim & Joyce

I bought my double after evaluating the ranges I've shot stuff at. 90%+ of what I've shot, was under 200yds. At least 75% of that, was under 100yds. That is in BC and Alberta over 40 yrs.
Plenty of times I wondered why I brought a rifle, could have whacked it with my bow. Those 60-200yd critters, have no idea they are back in the danger zone nowadays, with the double.

So, I bought something that is adequate for the purpose around here. It will do what needs doing at 200yds, I have a 1-6x scope for it. I have also just used the irons, while in the bush. It's a fun learning curve to figure how to make it work the way I wanted it to. Very different to what I've been using, but, with some practice and work with some loads, I got to understand it, to the point where I am comfortable with it. It's no tack driver, but it is functional for my purposes. If it looks too far, I just get closer. If I screw it up in the process, that is life, it will still be there to hunt, tonite or tomorrow.
To me, the double feels like a real hunting rifle to carry and shoot. I find my single shots, boring to shoot now.

If the rifle is properly regulated and sighted, and if the shooter does enough shooting to have great confidence in it and in his own abilities, then a double rifle can well be a 250 yard weapon, with a solid hold. I'm sitting in my African trophy room as I type this. When I look around me, I see eland,red hartebeest, nyala, Chobe bushbuck, scimitar-horned oryx, grey duiker, klipspringer, Cape buffalo, blue wildebeest, 2 warthogs, and a sable, all taken with double rifles. The sable was at 208 yards with my .450 #2 NE. Add to that list about 10 whitetails, and 3 Russian boars. I believe that is good evidence of the effectiveness of the double rifle at longer ranges, if it is used well.

quote:

Originally posted by ron vella:
If the rifle is properly regulated and sighted, and if the shooter does enough shooting to have great confidence in it and in his own abilities, then a double rifle can well be a 250 yard weapon, with a solid hold. I'm sitting in my African trophy room as I type this. When I look around me, I see eland,red hartebeest, nyala, Chobe bushbuck, scimitar-horned oryx, grey duiker, klipspringer, Cape buffalo, blue wildebeest, 2 warthogs, and a sable, all taken with double rifles. The sable was at 208 yards with my .450 #2 NE. Add to that list about 10 whitetails, and 3 Russian boars. I believe that is good evidence of the effectiveness of the double rifle at longer ranges, if it is used well.

..............................................................

The biggest limitation of a double for me was after I bought it I have found it uninteresting to shoot.

I think I shot in 3 times and a total of 20-30 rounds and have lost all interest in it. I have not shot it in the last 2 years.

One of my goals is to shoot it more in 2017. I should shop around for some 450-400 cheap shooting ammo from Hornady.

Mike

quote:

The biggest limitation of a double for me was after I bought it I have found it uninteresting to shoot.

And you can't get one with a 30-round banana clip :-)

quote:

And you can't get one with a 30-round banana clip :-)

Oh, Biebs, but you can! And it dates from 1915!

Here you are...your double barrel, twenty-five round banana magazine, DR for that most dangerous all of "dangerous game"...man!

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
The biggest limitation of a double for me was after I bought it I have found it uninteresting to shoot.

I think I shot in 3 times and a total of 20-30 rounds and have lost all interest in it. I have not shot it in the last 2 years.

One of my goals is to shoot it more in 2017. I should shop around for some 450-400 cheap shooting ammo from Hornady.

Mike

With the great deals on Elephant Safaris at the moment, this should not be a problem.
Nothing like getting in close to DG with a big bore, particlarly one with two barrels.

quote:

Here you are...your double barrel, twenty-five round banana magazine, DR

Mike will take 2!!!

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
The biggest limitation of a double for me was after I bought it I have found it uninteresting to shoot.

I think I shot in 3 times and a total of 20-30 rounds and have lost all interest in it. I have not shot it in the last 2 years.

One of my goals is to shoot it more in 2017. I should shop around for some 450-400 cheap shooting ammo from Hornady.

Mike

With the great deals on Elephant at the moment, this should not be a problem.
Nothing like getting in close to DG with a big bore, particlarly one with two barrels.

I would not shoot an elephant if someone paid me a million dollars

But I am thinking of using it to shoot some eland at Tholo or maybe a buff in the save.

I am also thinking of going to the alaska double shoot.

Admiral/Subsailor74 has loaded me some 450-400 rounds and offered generously to load ammo for me.

So I want to start 2017 with trying to get some hornady ammo to target shoot and great brass to reload.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:

quote:

Here you are...your double barrel, twenty-five round banana magazine, DR

Mike will take 2!!!

You should see the video Biebs - says it all "put as much lead on target as possible" = ie shoot till you kill your moose.

Not look for a cig, admire your blaser, ask others to do your shooting

Keep shooting - if there is lead in the air - there is hope.

No one ever killed anything with the ammo in their culling belt or magazine

Mike

Mike sez, he needs a banana clip to take care of all your wounded's. Just kidding Jon. A fine day to all.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:

quote:

The biggest limitation of a double for me was after I bought it I have found it uninteresting to shoot.

And you can't get one with a 30-round banana clip :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Rockdoc:
Biggest limitation on a double rifle for me is my shooting

Followed by my eyesight with fine beads!

Me too.

Yes, that's an issue...by the time you're old enough to afford a nice one, your eyes are too old to use it :-(

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Gentlemen of AR:
In my post of my elk hunt several raised the questions of the limitations of a double rifle. Now, by choice, I have only hunted with a double since 2003. Prior to that I used a double and also a bolt and sometimes a lever action. Doubles do have their limits. Accuracy, weight, open sights, and (of course) the cost. What else?

So, fellas, how about doubles? What do you see as their limitations and also what are doubles best used for, what are they marginal for, and what situations would you never use a double? Be specific and touch of the subject of open sights and a scoped double, please.

In my own experiences I has passed on shots that could have been easily made with a scoped bolt rifle, and also missed a few.

As an added plus, tell us what doubles you have hunted with and game taken with them.

What say you, gents?
Cheers,
Cal

My Blaser BD97 in 9.3x74R

Disadvantages compared to Blaser R93 repeater and Blaser K95 Stutzen single shot.

1. More expensive
2. Heavier
3. Slightly less accurate if you consider both barrels groups 2x2 versus 4 shots from a single barrel
4. Can take longer to regulate both barrels and sight in.
5. Barrels regulated for one sight system are generally not regulated for another. Ie Scope and aimpoint
6. Unless stock is u/o or full beaver for sxs the barrels can get very hot after repeated firings
7. Cleaning barrels takes twice as long as there are two of them
8. Fast reloading for rapid shots takes some practice, especially if you are using extractors with a rimless cartridge
9. Some idiot will always insist action is broken and if you have auto safety it makes getting the first shot off slow.
10.Can't put a moderator on them or a muzzle break (not an issue for me)
11. They can rust on the extractors if you hunt a lot in the rain

Advantages
1. Right weight for calibre to manage recoil ie 3.5kg for 9.3x74R although I would prefer all my rifles to be 2.55kg and if necessary I'd drop down to a 7x65R if I had to do it.
2. Second shot is instinctive
3. They take down easy and fit in small cases
4. Accuracy of modern german doubles is right up there with a standard bolt gun and good enough for 250m
5. You can get a shotgun and combination barrel set for them, I have which are also lighter
6. You can put nice game scene sideplates on them
7. Modern ones will allow easy sighing platforms for quick release mounting systems
8. It is short and easy to carry through thick regrowth.

I don't like carrying a double on my shoulder for 10 hours stalking. I prefer my 2.5kg stutzen in 30-06. I've used it for stalking, driven hunts, hochsitz, however the only reason I wouldn't use a double for long range shooting past 400m as the scope and the weight would be too much to carry.


Game???

Mainly fallow deer, wild goats, foxes and rabbits.
If you include the second combination barrel set, fallow deer, sambar deer, pigs, foxes, goats, rabbits, hares, ducks

I've regulated several blaser doubles and all of them without fail have surprised the average bolt action hunter.

quote:

Yes, that's an issue...by the time you're old enough to afford a nice one, your eyes are too old to use it :-(

Or...like my Boss side-by-side when one day I'll think it's too cold or too wet to go out and shoot.

But, fortunately, I'm not quite yet at that stage...maybe another ten years...time stops for no one.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
The biggest limitation of a double for me was after I bought it I have found it uninteresting to shoot.

I think I shot in 3 times and a total of 20-30 rounds and have lost all interest in it. I have not shot it in the last 2 years.

One of my goals is to shoot it more in 2017. I should shop around for some 450-400 cheap shooting ammo from Hornady.

Mike

With the great deals on Elephant Safaris at the moment, this should not be a problem.
Nothing like getting in close to DG with a big bore, particlarly one with two barrels.

The deals are there but the ele are not.
I am sure if you had a honest account of all the hunters who went on a bull ele hunt during the last few years and did not get one you would agree.

A couple of years ago I saw a African hunt on one of the cable shows where a hunter took an eland withe his scoped double at 300 yards, I believe it was a 470 since he latter took an elephant, I my self considered doubles a 200 yard limit with one barrel and a scope

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Yes, that's an issue...by the time you're old enough to afford a nice one, your eyes are too old to use it :-(

Biebs:
Don't hijack my thread. It's about doubles, not your experience with hookers.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:
The biggest limitation of a double for me was after I bought it I have found it uninteresting to shoot.

I think I shot in 3 times and a total of 20-30 rounds and have lost all interest in it. I have not shot it in the last 2 years.

One of my goals is to shoot it more in 2017. I should shop around for some 450-400 cheap shooting ammo from Hornady.

Mike

With the great deals on Elephant Safaris at the moment, this should not be a problem.
Nothing like getting in close to DG with a big bore, particlarly one with two barrels.

The deals are there but the ele are not.
I am sure if you had a honest account of all the hunters who went on a bull ele hunt during the last few years and did not get one you would agree.

Not nessasarily.....

The biggest limitation where a double rifle is concerned is the guy failing to learn to shoot it properly, or work up proper loads for it!

.....................................................................OPINION!

Sometimes I think the only limits (within reason) are in our minds. My iron sighted Chapuis 9,3x74R accompanied me on two moose hunts. Hunt 1 resulted in a dead bull killed roughly 110 yards away and hunt 2 ended the same way with the bull being lazered after the kill at either 283 or 287 yards away.
Hunt 2 was most likely a lucky shot. Its surprising the more we practice the luckier we become.

My vision would be the biggest problem for me. I need optics or a real big target real close. I don't care because they make solutions to that problem. Optics make it possible to continue with DR's.

quote:

Biebs:
Don't hijack my thread. It's about doubles, not your experience with hookers.
Cal

Cal, they're much cheaper than double rifles :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:

quote:

Biebs:
Don't hijack my thread. It's about doubles, not your experience with hookers.
Cal

Cal, they're much cheaper than double rifles :-)

.................................................................

That's kind of a loaded question in that the shooters skill is the most important portion of the subject and that varies to a great degree..

Speaking only for myself, I have killed 3 buffalo at 200 to 250 yard two with a 450-400-3" and one with a .470..all three were one shot kills, but a buff is a damn big target..

I believe the double rifle is a 150 yard elk rifle in any caliber, maybe a 200 yard gun with somef that poses exceptional shooting skills, but when shooting at a noble animal like an elk I would like to sneak another 50 or 100 yards closer. much the same as I would with a muzzle loader.I have never shot an elk or deer with a double rifle preferring a bolt action scoped rifle or a iron sight lever action in heavy timber....

A double imo or for my shooting is a DG African rifle only, and Ive shot a lot of buffalo with them, most at under 50 yards, and most offhand.

That's just for me, what someone else chooses is their business as long as its legal and moral.

If one knows his capabilities and has good judgment, then let fly my friend, Im all for you.

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
I'll have to pass.

A gathering of double rifle men is way above my class level rating.

Cal keeps inviting me so class doesn't enter into the equation at all. One of these years he'll have it when I'm not on the slope and I'll be able to attend.

quote:

Originally posted by mart:

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
I'll have to pass.

A gathering of double rifle men is way above my class level rating.

Cal keeps inviting me so class doesn't enter into the equation at all. One of these years he'll have it when I'm not on the slope and I'll be able to attend.

Mart:
Ted does not have a problem with double rifles nor the those that shoot them. He was giving a few shots at me due to my threads on my elk hunt and the contract questions(s). Ted is welcome, of course, and I will offer to pick him up at the airport to save him car rental, house him so he won't have to get a hotel, and eat at my home to avoid restaurant meals. I've apologized to him if my threads offended him in any manner.

When a date is picked for our shoot, I don't have a clue as to anyone's schedule. I've tried to accommodate individuals in the past but there is always a day when somebody can't attend and if I pick that day to shoot, they may take offense. So, it is quick and innocent just to pick a date 6-8 months in advance. With lots of notice, some can plan and those out of state can work out their air line schedules and to cash in their miles.

I do hope you and all others on AR can attend. We usually have 40+ doubles and all are invited to shoot other's rifles. Then, with doubles in hand, each shooter can determine the advantages and disadvantages of double rifles for themselves. The largest calibers (.600 & 4-bore) kick a bit, but the .350 no2 Rigby (3 at the last shoot) are like a .30-06. And, everything in between. Accuracy is ok, but nothing like a aingle barrel with a scope can shoot. Here is a sample of an average 50 yard target. This one is from my .450 no2 at 50 yards, 10 shots.

If you can't make the shoot, I shoot a few times each month in the winter in my heated shooting shed, and you're welcome to drive up.

Cheers,
Cal

PS. Second pic is my first cape buffalo with the .450 no2 Lang--two shots in the heart. He went down quick and it was my first experience hearing the death bellow. Made in 1904 it has good history--owned my a retired officer from the Boer War who went to Kenya to start a hog farm. Whe it failed he became a White Hunter. This was his rifle and it stayed with the company until 1956 when it was returned to Lang for repairs. I bought it in 2000.

Cal,

Love to see the pictures you post of game taken with a double gun.

One of these years I'll get to attend the doubles shoot. This year was crazy though with working extra rotations and family health issues to deal with. It seemed like I was always gone this year when the fun stuff was happening. Doubles shoots, salmon season, most of hunting season.

Etta and I thoroughly enjoyed our visit to your cabin and I look forward to another someday soon.

You are welcome anytime, Mart.
Cal

I have found the double rifle guys to be the nicest, 'most down to earth people I have ever met on the internet.

Thank you, Colin, so have I.
Cal

B-625:
I can think of nothing else I would rather do than hunt ele with my doubles. I mean nothing. Each of us have our own tastes. I would take a million if offered, though.

.


Happy 2017 all !

Interesting and fun thread.

I own and shoot 3 doubles - a Krieghoff 470 open sights, a Krieghoff .375 scoped and a 8x57 Wolf, also scoped. The .375 was my first DR and I hunted with nothing else in Africa for years, from dangerous game down to steenbok. The .470 I use for big and DG and the 8x57 mainly in Europe (and Mauritania for warthog).

Pros - two rifles in one should one mechanism fail, quick second shot etc etc. Plus you don't get them in camo synthetic stocks and stainless barrels ! A huge plus in my mind!

Cons - if any maybe Price, but I have also seen a lot of very expensive bolt Actions in London and Continental Europe!


Now Cal as regards the Alaska DR shoot, I would love nothing more than to come over for it if I may but 2017 is planned.

When you have an idea of 2018 dates and if someone will give Anja and I a bed for a night or the then its a trip that we would think worthwhile making. Is black bear season open around the time of the shoot? That could be a great combination trip!

Happy New Year to all of you!

Charlie

.

quote:

Originally posted by Charlie64:
.


Happy 2017 all !

Interesting and fun thread.

I own and shoot 3 doubles - a Krieghoff 470 open sights, a Krieghoff .375 scoped and a 8x57 Wolf, also scoped. The .375 was my first DR and I hunted with nothing else in Africa for years, from dangerous game down to steenbok. The .470 I use for big and DG and the 8x57 mainly in Europe (and Mauritania for warthog).

Pros - two rifles in one should one mechanism fail, quick second shot etc etc. Plus you don't get them in camo synthetic stocks and stainless barrels ! A huge plus in my mind!

Cons - if any maybe Price, but I have also seen a lot of very expensive bolt Actions in London and Continental Europe!


Now Cal as regards the Alaska DR shoot, I would love nothing more than to come over for it if I may but 2017 is planned.

When you have an idea of 2018 dates and if someone will give Anja and I a bed for a night or the then its a trip that we would think worthwhile making. Is black bear season open around the time of the shoot? That could be a great combination trip!

Happy New Year to all of you!

Charlie

.

Charlie:
The 2018 shoot will be the first or second Saturday in May. Black bear is open year 'round and the limit is three bears. However, if a non US citizen you must hire a professional guide.
With enough lead, I can find one for you and you can hunt right out of my front door.
Cal

I have seen double rifles used quite a bit in Germany, usually from stands. Most shooting is within 75 yds usually on grazing game or game moving to and from cover. Don't think doubles are a good choice for driven hunts unless the shooter is willing to limit shooting to maintain a cooler barrel. I have personally shot 4-6 hogs within several minutes and felt a bolt action was the better choice for driven hunts (Treibjagd).

they're not a real good choice for Bench Rest, or the 600-1000 yard matches. Definitely not for the Ko2M.

They were designed to give a pre-1900 African/Asian DG hunter that fast 2nd shot when his life was at stake. For DG I do not see a better option.