You have fallen under the spell of the double rifle and decide a double should be the tool of the trade for everything from whitetails to elk to the largest of bear and of course, your return to Africa for Cape buffalo, Elephant and Plains Game.

You already have a 600NE and 9.3x74R and that certainly covers everything quite well.

BUT ... you can't help yourself and are eyeing another double but cant decide between a 450NE and 500NE ...

Yes, I know it's crazy but let's have a bit if fun and imagine you've left the 600 and 9.4 in the tent and might come across a trophy (insert game of choice here) ...

Question:
Would you choose a ...

Choices:
450 Nitro Express
500 Nitro Express

 

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
You have fallen under the spell of the double rifle and decide a double should be the tool of the trade for everything from whitetails to elk to the largest of bear and of course, your return to Africa for Cape buffalo, Elephant and Plains Game.

You already have a 600NE and 9.3x74R and that certainly covers everything quite well.

BUT ... you can't help yourself and are eyeing another double but cant decide between a 450NE and 500NE ...

Yes, I know it's crazy but let's have a bit if fun and imagine you've left the 600 and 9.4 in the tent and might come across a trophy (insert game of choice here) ...

With a 600NE, and a 9.3X74R doubles, I wouldn't get either one! I'd keep the 9.3 and buy a nice trim 450/400NE 3" , sell the 600NE and buy a 500NE.

..............

450 and a scoped 9.3, .375, .450/400 would be a pretty hard combo to beat. I really like the .450s-.475s.

Brett

I voted for the 450 and I'll agree with what Mac said!

quote:

I'd buy a nice trim 450/400NE 3"

Hey Mac, where would you buy one of those?

I would go the 450

I vote mainstream for once. My pair are a Chapuis in 9,3x74R and an early Searcy in .470 NE.

If I were to add a third, the choice would be between a .577 and .600 NE.

The .470 NE is just too readily available and a better hammer than any of the .45's.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

I'd buy a nice trim 450/400NE 3"

Hey Mac, where would you buy one of those?

I'd have Butch build me a classic at 9 1/2 to 10 lbs. Most of my big bore bolt rifles run 10 lbs or a little more loaded with scope attached!

You "Need" as many as the wife will let you

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:

The .470 NE is just too readily available and a better hammer than any of the .45's.

Rich
DRSS

How do you fugure that the 470 is better than a 450 NE? Other than it's 16/thousandths bigger hole?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
You "Need" as many as the wife will let you

And this is why Snowwolfe's sig line is so very true

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:

The .470 NE is just too readily available and a better hammer than any of the .45's.

Rich
DRSS

How do you fugure that the 470 is better than a 450 NE? Other than it's 16/thousandths bigger hole?

See Mike_Dettorre's signature - line number 2.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
With a 600NE, and a 9.3X74R doubles, I wouldn't get either one! I'd buy a nice trim 450/400NE 3" , sell the 600NE and buy a 500NE.

..............

BLASPHEMY!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:

The .470 NE is just too readily available and a better hammer than any of the .45's.

Rich
DRSS

How do you fugure that the 470 is better than a 450 NE? Other than it's 16/thousandths bigger hole?

You didn't know Rich was a mental gymnastics gold metal olympian???

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
With a 600NE, and a 9.3X74R doubles, I wouldn't get either one! I'd keep the 9.3 and buy a nice trim 450/400NE 3" , sell the 600NE and buy a 500NE.

..............

BLASPHEMY!!!

...............

MacD37,


Are you saying you would have a 9.3x74R, a 450/400NE 3" AND a 500NE?

If so,then you would definitely need to have a 600NE or even a 700NE to even out the spread

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
MacD37,


Are you saying you would have a 9.3x74R, a 450/400NE 3" AND a 500NE?

If so,then you would definitely need to have a 600NE or even a 700NE to even out the spread

Paul, right now I own a 8X57JR double, two 9.3X74R doubles, an O/U, and S/S, a 470NE, a 500/450 Westly Richards, a 458RCBS S/S, a 58 cal percussion double, and 58 Berdan/20 ga cape gun, an 8X57JR/16 bore Cape gun, and several big bore bolt, and single shots. SO, I don't think a 600NE would make my life more complete!

I've owned two 577NE doubles, and saw little need for anything bigger than a 500NE double, so I sold them both in favor of a very clean Army&Navy 450/400NE 3" which sadly I no longer have! I had to let 8 double rifles go, a few yrs back, for some fast funds needed for medical reasons.

The 600NE and 700NE are OK if you want them, I simply see no need for anything larger than a 500NE for this planet. However we all know that "NEED" is trumped by "WANT" every time! So enjoy your 600NE, I'm happy for you!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

Paul, right now I own a 8X57JR double, two 9.3X74R doubles, an O/U, and S/S, a 470NE, a 500/450 Westly Richards, a 458RCBS S/S, a 58 cal percussion double, and 58 Berdan/20 ga cape gun, an 8X57JR/16 bore Cape gun, and several big bore bolt, and single shots. SO, I don't think a 600NE would make my life more complete!

I've owned two 577NE doubles, and saw little need for anything bigger than a 500NE double, so I sold them both in favor of a very clean Army&Navy 450/400NE 3" which sadly I no longer have! I had to let 8 double rifles go, a few yrs back, for some fast funds needed for medical reasons.

The 600NE and 700NE are OK if you want them, I simply see no need for anything larger than a 500NE for this planet. However we all know that "NEED" is trumped by "WANT" every time! So enjoy your 600NE, I'm happy for you!

WOW - very, very nice collection.

You are absolutely right, need has nothing to do with any of this at all. All that is really needed is to enjoy ...

to whatever is needed to enjoy life

John "Pondoro" Taylor said that most men in the bush seemed to

lean toward the idea that if you needed more than something in

the range of 450NE through 475 #2 that it made little sense to go

to 500 NE, better to go 577NE or 600NE. Your two cal's now, 9.3

and 600 would be perfectly augmented by the best rifle that you

can afford from 450 NE through 475 #2. I think that 470 NE am-

mo is a bit easier to get while IN AFRICA, so I'd lean that way. A
nice 5000 FP's energy, what's not to love?!?!

The 470 is better because Rich has one

I want a 450 NE, a 500 NE and a 577

All straight cases without shoulders.

Mike & Brett,

obviously the two of you have a better handle on things RE Double Rifles than my sixteen years of ownership has provided me. I bow to your superior knowledge and experience.

That said, I have four different head stamped .470 NE rounds sitting on my desk. More fools unaware of your reality.

I also took some time to research the matter with a number of builders and importers of Double Rifles. Those ninnies are as ignorant and unenlightened as I and the ammunition manufacturers are. They think that slightly over fifty-percent of their sales the past several years have been .470 NE chamberings. Just call Searcy, KEBCO, and Dale Nyland and ask the sales ratio of 45 caliber to 470 doubles.

I went to two gunshops in April while I was hunting in RSA. They had boxes and boxes of 470, but no 450 caliber ammunition for DRs. Same thing at the Cabela's in Boise. No .450 anything. Two brands of 470 NE, softs and solids.

One last thing: in a post here, RAC has been trying to find those popular 450 dies with no luck. I checked all the sources he checked, and they all have 470 NE dies, brass, bullets, and a shellholder in stock. Hmmmmm...

Rich
DRSS

I may be wrong, but did I detect just the faintest whiff of sarcasm in the above text??????????

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
I may be wrong, but did I detect just the faintest whiff of sarcasm in the above text??????????

Jon,

YOU are Detective material!
________________________________________________________________

As Rich has endorsed, it's about getting loaded ammo and the supplies to reload ammo.

I doubt there's a man anywhere, that could prove that a beast hit by either round in the

exact same spot, at the exact same velocity, with the exact same type of bullet, would

be more seriously injured or die quicker, from one caliber over the other.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Mike & Brett,

obviously the two of you have a better handle on things RE Double Rifles than my sixteen years of ownership has provided me. I bow to your superior knowledge and experience.

That said, I have four different head stamped .470 NE rounds sitting on my desk. More fools unaware of your reality.

I also took some time to research the matter with a number of builders and importers of Double Rifles. Those ninnies are as ignorant and unenlightened as I and the ammunition manufacturers are. They think that slightly over fifty-percent of their sales the past several years have been .470 NE chamberings. Just call Searcy, KEBCO, and Dale Nyland and ask the sales ratio of 45 caliber to 470 doubles.

I went to two gunshops in April while I was hunting in RSA. They had boxes and boxes of 470, but no 450 caliber ammunition for DRs. Same thing at the Cabela's in Boise. No .450 anything. Two brands of 470 NE, softs and solids.

One last thing: in a post here, RAC has been trying to find those popular 450 dies with no luck. I checked all the sources he checked, and they all have 470 NE dies, brass, bullets, and a shellholder in stock. Hmmmmm...

Rich
DRSS

By that reasoning a .470 is a better "hammer" than a .600NE because guns, ammo, and reloading parts are more readily available????? Really???? I think some other factors MAY dictate why one cartridge is more popular than another. Those factors you mentioned are quite frankly erronius to the question at hand. And pray tell what did all the manufacturers you spoke with say that diffinitively pointed to the .470 being a far supperior stopper than a .450? Like Mike the ONLY thing I can come up with is a 16 thousands of an inch diameter difference which I conseed would add a VERY SLIGHT increase in energy transfer due to a slightly greater surface area. One could also argue the .450 is a "much greater penetrator" than the .470 due to the "huge difference in diameter". But really who care's they're pretty much identical.

Brett

Rich,
I'm not stateing that the 470 isn't more popular right now. It replaced the 450 way back when just because of the political situation. Today with the limited options available for reloading supplies I forcast that the 450 will regain popularity.
I'm saying that both will toss out a 500 grn slug at the same speed. They'll have the same effect on the critters because they're equal power. The 470 is just a touch larger diameter so it's going to make a bigger hole. (but not by much)

Will, I just found a Jeff 450/400 3" at a local shop, economy caused a guy to bring it in that had owned it for 20 years. Made in 1914, 24" barrels, ejector, engraved tigers, sharp checkering, two lb. crisp triggers, barrels as shiny as a new nickel and shoots like a charm!! How's that for a blind hog finding an acorn??

Brett,
the 577 and 600 are in a whole nother class.

Mike,

I know, this is the first time I have gone with the mainstream chambering.

We all three voted with our pocketbooks, I just got a screaming deal on the .470. Very popular chambering.

I didn't say I couldn't find space to store you or Brett's 450's just that I can't find a good one I can afford.

Rich
DRSS

If it wasn't for Ivan Hornady probably wouldn't have bothered making the .450 NE. Now he's gone on to the .600. Maybe that will be in Hornady's future. The gun makers had to have something new to sell. That's the current popularity of the .450.

So the .450 is the flavor of the month on AR. So what?

All sorts of experienced hunters knew that the .470 was more effective than the .450, including the likes of Harland and, obviously, John Taylor.

This sounds like an Gerard-bullet shout-down because someone is not blindly enamored with the latest Miss Popularity Cartridge on AR.

If there is no difference between a .450 and a .470 then is there a difference between the .500 and .470, or between the .500 and the .577?

Or let's just go all the way, and declare there is no difference between the .450 and the .600.

Silly boys.

Will are you smoking crack again? A .450 and .470 shoot the same weight bullet at the same velocity. Tell me the significant difference between the two? By signifigant I mean a difference that would actually have any real world affect what so ever. A .450/.470 compared to a .500? Sure there's a differenece. A .500 compared to a .577? Sure there's a difference. A .450 compared to a .470? No way! You and Rich are still welcome to explain to me or lead me to some reading or show me the terror cards you used to come up with this theory.

Brett

PS. I know I have a .450, but I could care less about that in regards to this discusion. I originally looked for a .450 with the idea that somehow shooting .458 bullets would be an advantage as far as availability. The more I find out the less I think a .450 is a boon for parts up here in Alaska. All reloading supplies for double rifles seem to be about as equally difficult to procure in Alaska be they .450/400, .450, .470, .475, .500, .577, or .600.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Brett,
the 577 and 600 are in a whole nother class.

We certainly agree on that. I've shot 9.3s, .375s, .450/400s, .450s, .470/.475s and they are a considerable step down from the .600 I shot! I still haven't shot a .500 or .577 yet.

Back to the standing question: Why do you think and what did all those "industry insiders" tell you that made you and them conclude a .470 is "a better hammer than any of the .45's."? I'm still waiting for this logic as it surely escapes me.

Brett

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
If it wasn't for Ivan Hornady probably wouldn't have bothered making the .450 NE. Now he's gone on to the .600. Maybe that will be in Hornady's future. The gun makers had to have something new to sell. That's the current popularity of the .450.

Guys, Will is correct with his statement. It always has to do with what new eye candy you or I haven't seen yet and manufactures trying get us to buy the newest, biggest, baddest toy just look at the shooting industry over the last ten years...seems like there is always a new caliber coming out or something brought back from the dead.

quote:

Originally posted by dirklawyer:
Guys, Will is correct with his statement. .

I bet that's the first time in recorded history that statement has been made!

I still contend that it's easier to find reloading gear that uses a normal sized bore. The 500 would be next in line.

Rich, the next time you wander up here we'll have to take you out to Borchwood or Cals for some shooting.

Let's look at the differences between the 470 and 450 Nitro rounds a little more closely. The 450 does not use the same weight of bullet as the 470. The standard for the 450 is 480 grains versus 500 grains for the 470. Both are listed at 2,150 fps by the factory's. I suspect most of us will actually see velocities in the 2,050 to 2,090 fps range in our rifles. The 470 uses a larger bottle necked case compared to the 470's straight walled case, so pressures will be somewhat lower in the 470, meaning less possibility of heat related pressure problems with the 470.

So what does this all mean? We can expect the 450 to penetrate slightly better and the 470 to hit slightly harder. Both have enough penetration and hitting power for any animal and any differences we might see in the field will be more illusionary than real.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Brett Adam Barringer:
Will are you smoking crack again? A .450 and .470 shoot the same weight bullet at the same velocity. Tell me the significant difference between the two?

I agree with your take on the 450NE, but your facts are incorrect in the statement above!
The 450NE 3 1/4" uses a 480 gr bullet, and the 470NE uses a 500 gr bullet!

Admittedly there is little difference between the 470 gr, and the 500gr bullets, but there is a difference However the difference in penetration, and FPE is not measurable by a cape buffalo hit in the same spot from the same distance with the same bullet construction between the 450NE, and the 470NE.

The choice between the two is nothing more than a personal choice. Certainly, as Will states, there is a difference between the 450 or 470, and the 600NE. Anyone who would seriously deny that fact must have suffered a frontal lobotomy.

Mac,
I use 500 Hornadys in all 3 of my 450's and they shoot to the same point of impact/regulation as the 480 (not 470) grains that Hornady uses. The DGX and DGS are just more spendy for use here.

never seen a 470 grain bullet for the 450 nitro....I am on the side of I don't think there is much difference between the 450 & 470 nitro....500 & 577 sure.....your fooling yourself if you think there is a huge gap between the 450 & 470...

Mac

Hey Mac, go get that second cup of coffee. You're thinking 480 grs. but typing 470 grs.

Hope you are doing well.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
Mac,
I use 500 Hornadys in all 3 of my 450's and they shoot to the same point of impact/regulation as the 480 (not 470) grains that Hornady uses. The DGX and DGS are just more spendy for use here.

The 470 was a habit in this post as it concerns the 470NE. A typo on my part! That being aside there are many bullet weights that can be used with some careful worked up loads so they regulate. The 480 gr is standard weight for the 450NE 3 1/4". I personally believe the different chamberings are more dependant on the advantages or disadvantages brought on by things like the weight of the rifle, the recoil differences, and how acustomed the shooter is to the rifle he chooses.

I think it is that people too often the depend on one of the total factors to decide which is best to justify their pick!

When you boil it all down, if both shooters are equally proficient, one with a 450NE, and the other with a 470NE I doubt the Buffalo would know the difference between the two!

I've never had a 375H&H fail on Cape Buffalo, but nobody in his right mind would say without doubt because of that fact that the 375 H&H is the end all for cape buffalo. What I am saying however is all the chamberings are good for everything you are likely to run across in Africa, as long as everything is just right. However, the smallest have their drawbacks, and the largest have theirs, they just aren't the same drawbacks. In other words they are all good, it is just that some are "GOODER" than others depending on the over all package!

I'm aware the traditional load for a .450 is with a 480 grain bullet and I shoot 480 Woodlieghs in mine.....never the less people load 500 grain bullets in .450s to similar velocities as in a .470. I'll have to agree with 465H&H as the only difference I can see is a slight penetration edge to the .450 and a slight energy transfer edge to the .470. And when I say slight I mean so little as it doesn't make any real world difference and is unnoticable on either end of the rifle.

Brett

We're in total agreement Mac!