MAC's comments are usually GOODER than most!

Time to add some fuel to this fire

Have any of you shot enough animals with both the 450 and 470 to be able to formulate as educated opinion as to which is the better killer?

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Time to add some fuel to this fire

Have any of you shot enough animals with both the 450 and 470 to be able to formulate as educated opinion as to which is the better killer?

Very good point, and I doubt that even most PHs have not had enough experience with more than a couple of rifle types, and couple of chamberings to say definitively that one is absolutely better than the other.

Like everyone else we all generally use one or two chamberings and rifle types for the dangerous game. This includes the PHs of long standing. Most buy the rifle that is available when they start out new, but sooner or later will pick one rifle type, and caliber and stick with that for most of their career. IMO, client hunters are more prone to use several types, and chamberings over time than PHs. Most PHs are not gun nuts, and simply use what they have found to work for them. Clients, and especially American clients tend to use several different chamberings, and rifle types over a span of years! I don't think you will find many PHs using 600NE rifles! Not even many will be using 577NE rifles. The 470NE, 470NE class in doubles and and 458 Lott, and 458 Win Mag bolt rifles seem to be in the hands of a lot of PHs, but many use the 375H&H for most of their careers with a larger rifle for follow-ups.

Mac,
That is exactly the point I was hoping to bring out. There is no difference in killing power between the 450 or 470.
Cheers

Sniff. I spent all that money on a Heym 450 NE double and now I found it is nothing but a glorified 45-70. I will never get to kill an elephant now. And I am never going to find any reloading dies so I will have to just keep shooting that Hornady ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by RAC:
Sniff. I spent all that money on a Heym 450 NE double and now I found it is nothing but a glorified 45-70. I will never get to kill an elephant now. And I am never going to find any reloading dies so I will have to just keep shooting that Hornady ammo.

I assume you'll aslo be selling your .458 double for something with some more "hammer" to it.....like a .470!

Brett

RAC,

if you're going to snivel in public I don't (personally) think you are ready to move up from one of those peashooter 450's to a manly man's Double like my .470!
Ahahahahahahah!!!



I's just funnin' you three. I could live with a 450 if it looked like Brett's. Happily ever after.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I also took some time to research the matter with a number of builders and importers of Double Rifles. .... They think that slightly over fifty-percent of their sales the past several years have been .470 NE chamberings. Just call Searcy, KEBCO, and Dale Nyland and ask the sales ratio of 45 caliber to 470 doubles.

I had the opportunity to ask two well known overseas makers of big bore doubles the same question. They both said they get more orders for .470 than any other cartridge.

I've never hunted with either cartridge but I do prefer shooting the .450NE. I use Hornady factory loads. They are offered with DGS solids and DGX expanding bullets. I have to order them online but I'm used to that. There isn't a sporting goods retailer within 250 miles that carries half the ammunition I need.

Regarding the pocketbook, Hornady's .450NE costs about $23 per box less then their .470NE. But that difference should not matter one way or the other. If one were to factor it into the cost of a hunt it would be negligible.

I would consider the difference in bullet diameter and energy to be just as negligible.

Perhaps the perfect solution would be a 450NE by 470NE cape gun. That way you could shoot the 450 at smaller big dangerous game and the 470 at bigger big dangerous game.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I also took some time to research the matter with a number of builders and importers of Double Rifles. .... They think that slightly over fifty-percent of their sales the past several years have been .470 NE chamberings. Just call Searcy, KEBCO, and Dale Nyland and ask the sales ratio of 45 caliber to 470 doubles.

I had the opportunity to ask two well known overseas makers of big bore doubles the same question. They both said they get more orders for .470 than any other cartridge.

I've never hunted with either cartridge but I do prefer shooting the .450NE. I use Hornady factory loads. They are offered with DGS solids and DGX expanding bullets. I have to order them online but I'm used to that. There isn't a sporing goods retailer within 250 miles that carries half the ammunition I need.

Regarding the pocketbook, Hornady's .450NE costs about $23 per box less then their .470NE. But that difference should not matter one way or the other. If one were to factor it into the cost of a hunt it would be negligible.

I would consider the difference in bullet diameter and energy to be just as negligible.

Would also bet that since Hornady "reintroduced" the 450 NE has been gaining sales every month. Every time Hornady produces a round of reloading dies they sell out almost immediately then are backordered again.
I think both are here to stay but a lot of us big bore freaks have a huge stash of .458 bullets and that helps the decision.
Also, Chapuis absolutely makes more 470's. Since they do not even offer the 450, yet

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
Rich,
I'm not stateing that the 470 isn't more popular right now. It replaced the 450 way back when just because of the political situation. Today with the limited options available for reloading supplies I forcast that the 450 will regain popularity.
I'm saying that both will toss out a 500 grn slug at the same speed. They'll have the same effect on the critters because they're equal power. The 470 is just a touch larger diameter so it's going to make a bigger hole. (but not by much)

As others have already said the 470NE is the darling of the double rifle field today.

However,the reason for the 470NE’s popularity, or existence had nothing to do with the banning of the 450NE in India, and the Sudan Initially. The fact is, the 470NE came out before that ban and what made it so popular was the fact that is was released to the trade, where many others were kept as a proprietary cartridge of the designer to be chambered only in their rifles. The ban helped with the 470NE’s popularity once the ban was in place, because the rifle makers needed to build new rifles in other chamberings rather than the banned .450s, and the 470NE was available to them.

The fact is, today, the reason is that the 470NE is all over the place, and so components, and factory loaded ammo is available just about everywhere. This will change, IMO, once the 450NE doubles get rolling, because of many new reasonably priced double rifles are now available in 450NE as well as good factory ammo being available, and components are as well. As far as bullets are concerned there has always been a very good availability of .458 dia bullets in the USA. The reason the stocks of dies, and brass are constantly back ordered now is because the makers of components were not aware that there would be such a large demand for the .450NE components and tools so existing supplies ran out very quickly, and suppliers simply can’t catch up. They will, and when they do, the 470NE will take a step down with American buyers!

I have a 470NE, and it is a good chambering, however I would rather have a 450NE 3 ¼” double, and if I wanted anything larger it would be a 500NE double. That is another one that is becoming very popular today, and the .450NE, and the 500NE bracket the 470NE quite well. So stand by!

I may be wrong but I think that the 470 has too large of a head start for the 450 to ever catch up.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I may be wrong but I think that the 470 has too large of a head start for the 450 to ever catch up.

465H&H

I think you are correct in that assumption, however, I think you are going to see a lot more 450NE doubles around in the next few years!

The 450/400s twenty years ago could be bought for three or four thousand dollars for very well appointed Britt rifles. Today you will be lucky to find one for sale unless it is a new one, and the prices for the older ones has gone through the roof. I the 80s I saw a lot of very fine 450/400s selling cheaply,or being traded in on rifle of less quality, because of lack of componants to load the 450/400s. Not today.

The 450NE double rifles will make a come back as well, simply because of the ease of loading, and the versitility of the round for many things other than just for dangerous game. I have a 470NE double rifle, and I use it to hunt just about anything I want to hunt, and I can tell you it has made several double taps on running wild boar for two shots two boar, so it is versitile as well but not as versitile as a 10 pound 450NE! If I could only have three double rifles they would be a 9.3X74R, a 450NE, and a 500NE.

There is no moss growning of the 470NE, that is very true, and anyone who thinks there is a death knell for the 470NE is in for a suprise, but there is nothing the 470NE can do that the 450NE can't do as well!

The fact that rifle maker are chambering double rifles for the 450/400NE, and the 450NE is not a fluke, they know the market is there, So it all boils down to what the customer wants! We will see what happens in the next ten years, that is if Obamanation doesn't make it so expensive to own a firearm that everyone simply gives up!

If I could only have three double rifles they would be a 9.3X75R, a 450NE, and a 500NE.


Couldnt agree more! Even though I have zero use for a 500 I want one just because the name "500 Nitro" sounds so damn badass!, lol

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
I want one just because the name "500 Nitro" sounds so damn badass!, lol

and 9.3x74R ... 450NE (or 500NE) ... and 600 NE doesnt?

Starting to lean towards the 450 Nitro Express as the "middle ground"

[/QUOTE] and 9.3x74R ... 450NE (or 500NE) ... and 600 NE doesnt?

Starting to lean towards the 450 Nitro Express as the "middle ground" [/QUOTE]


I already have a 9.3 and now the 450 NE. Does this mean I need to get a 600 NE to complete the set!?

quote:

Originally posted by RAC:

I already have a 9.3 and now the 450 NE. Does this mean I need to get a 600 NE to complete the set!?

Of course! You want to be part of the "IN" crowd, don't you

RAC needs a 577 NE to make his trio "right".

CCMDoc should go 470 NE or 465 NE to sit between his .600 and .366.

Well, the 500NE is numericlly closer to mid-way for me but I can't get over the availability and variety of .458 bullets with which to play.

Besides, Michael has done so much work with the 458 bullet ... just can't go wrong!

And now I am tortured as I consider the 450-400. I should have made the poll a three-way with the 450-400 the middle choice.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
And now I am tortured as I consider the 450-400. I should have made the poll a three-way with the 450-400 the middle choice.

Get the 450-400 AND the 465 or 470, or 450 if your heart pulls you there.

Doc,

did I mention that there is a fabulous looking Gustav Genschow in 465 H&H here in town for sale?
Dies, bullets, brass, etc.

Dare to be different!

Rich
DRSS

Rich,

I wish you hadn't - I have enough indecision as it is.

Jack,

That's my outlook - but with days being so long this time of year, there isnt enough time to slip out under cover of darkness and return with the goods unnoticed!

Just saw this fine thread. Very interesting, thoughtful posts.

BUT...no one has answered the original inquiry correctly. Here ya' go:
1. Sell both doubles.
2. Buy a bespoke Dakota 76 or Empire Mauser in .458 Lott. Load it any way you see fit.
3. Use the change to go hunting.

See? Wasn't that easy?

quote:

Originally posted by mauser93:
Just saw this fine thread. Very interesting, thoughtful posts.

BUT...no one has answered the original inquiry correctly. Here ya' go:
1. Sell both doubles.
2. Buy a bespoke Dakota 76 or Empire Mauser in .458 Lott. Load it any way you see fit.
3. Use the change to go hunting.

See? Wasn't that easy?

Sorry Mauser,

But I already have all of the bolt action rifles I need including a GMA-action 600 Overkill with which I took my Cape buffalo as well as a plethora of others down to .224 Weatherby. No Dakota though.

Wayne (Bitterroot) of AHR will be building me another 600OK if I ever get the ever get the stainless steel PH action I ordered and paid for some time ago, but I dont see other bolts in my near future (that can change in a moment's notice, of course)

No, the question still is:

500NE vs. 450NE vs. 450-400NE double

But thanks for your input

VS: 465H&H...

I get a visual of you just spinning a Wheel of Fortune set up with the diffferent calibers on it.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by mauser93:
Just saw this fine thread. Very interesting, thoughtful posts.

BUT...no one has answered the original inquiry correctly. Here ya' go:
1. Sell both doubles.
2. Buy a bespoke Dakota 76 or Empire Mauser in .458 Lott. Load it any way you see fit.
3. Use the change to go hunting.

See? Wasn't that easy?

And the winner is ...

450 Nitro Express


Brass and Hornady DGX bullets on their way from Cabelas, Dies on their way from Midway, just need a shellholder (have to look among my huge assortment - might have one already). Have a pile of 405 grain softs that will probably make amighty nice "SPLAT" on charging water jugs, deadly pumpkins and life-threatening watermellons.

Next - 45-70DR!