quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Well, not sure what model I have exactly. My metal work is identical to the one in your original photo (coin finish with engraving versus the case colors). My stock does not have tear drops and the forearm appears to be longer (more like the stock in your photo above). Maybe I have a transition model, I do not know. Nice rifle though.

Yes, you and I have the Round Body transition models. That's a good way of describing it. I know this because Ken and I were in deep negotiations for trading out my rifle for this "WR" model shown on the previous page with the more Westley Richards styling. In the end, we couldn't make the numbers work. I think Larry Shores traded his Round Body for this "WR" model, or he may have ordered a new one but I think that's the VC he currently owns.

That little gold line on the rear site is not just a domestic feature. I was impressed how it brought the eye to the front site and kept it there. I am not saying it is as good as a red dot, but similar. I did not get this upgrade on my anniversary model (not an expensive up grade) because the American factory rifles I have had that use the line or triangle were not done "right" and were more of a distraction than a benefit.

Whether one is looking at a new 88, 89, VC, or Sabbati that was going to have your favorite double rifle smith to knock out the bugs for a bargain, I would recommend the line or triangle inlaid rear site.

I think Ozhunter not to long ago posted his large frame, true splinter. English model VC in 470. If any one wants to compare picture to picture. Ozhunter if this is not correct, I apologize.

Can it be got with a peep or ghost ring rear and no quarter rib?

Damn, I wish I had these problems. Well, if i quit buying a bunch of other stuff, I could have bought more than a Chapuis. I like it a lot, but I have a passel of guns that could add up to an upgrade. However, I have a connection to almost all of them to the point I may not want to sell.

quote:

Adam, not sure I would call the modern made H&H doubles true English-style doubles any more. I think H&H's double rifles have been looking pretty poor for decades now. I would much rather have a pre-War H&H than a modern H&H. IMHO.

The sad but undeniable truth, unfortunately. A friend of mine took delivery of a new Royal .500 NE last year and, frankly, the rifle was an embarrassment. The quality of the stockmaking, in particular, was atrocious and not at all what one would expect on a rifle in that price bracket. Similarly, the two Centenary-edition .375 bolters I've seen were just as bad. They weren't even proofed in the centenary year but two years prior to that!

Now, the Model 89B, on the other hand, has me salivating. Beautiful lines!

quote:

Similarly, the two Centenary-edition .375 bolters I've seen were just as bad.

Agree. The ones I saw fell quite short of even interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:
Can it be got with a peep or ghost ring rear and no quarter rib?

Yes, we build a peep sight. The aperture is removable to make a "ghost ring," but it is not possible to build a set of barrels without the quarter rib.



Disclaimer: Those are"scrap" barrels the sight is shown on, so they are not polished correctly, nor are they rust blued. They are just for demo purposes.

Recessed Swivel Base

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Specifically referring to this VC model on display at the Jan 2014 DSC show:

That action looks more like a searcy than a westley richards

Lovely looking rifle new_guy.

quote:

Originally posted by ithadtobesaid:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Specifically referring to this VC model on display at the Jan 2014 DSC show:

That action looks more like a searcy than a westley richards

Actually, in person, that VC "WR" action looks NOTHING like a Searcy action. If I'm not mistaken, it's the standard VC Round Body action but on a stock and splinter reminiscent of the WR British rifles.

To my eye, it appears the VC movement toward British lines went the Westley Richards route while the new Heym has gone the Holland and Holland route. Again, it's nice to see both companies listening to the market and getting away from the beavertails and such as previously mentioned.

I just hope the DR market can stay afloat as it seems to be pretty soft right now. More than likely, a result of the import bans and "anti" undercurrent we've all been subjected to lately.

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
Recessed Swivel Base

Looks great along with the peep sight! The CCH on the swivel stud looks great without the bright colours. Can the Action be done with less of the bright blues and reds?

quote:

I just hope the DR market can stay afloat as it seems to be pretty soft right now. More than likely, a result of the import bans and "anti" undercurrent we've all been subjected to lately.

Todd, not sure I understand this. here are my thoughts:
1. A double is first and foremost a hunting rifle. There are fewer hunters in the USA than in previous years, and, the type of hunting we do in the USA is not fully conducive to using a double.
2. The minute a new double comes out there are double aficionados who will rip it to shreds for whatever reason, witness the K gun and the Blaser, not to mention O/U doubles!
3. Not too many hunters can afford the 5K and up prices of the lower end doubles, forgetting the $20K price tag of the one in this thread!
Sorry but I don;t see "anti gun sentiment affecting the purchase of a double rifle by anyone who is interested , and can afford, one.
I am not aware of any import bans that would affect the market for decent doubles. I could be wrong of course.
Doubles are both functional and aesthetic. Both are responsible for the price tag!
Peter

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:

quote:

I just hope the DR market can stay afloat as it seems to be pretty soft right now. More than likely, a result of the import bans and "anti" undercurrent we've all been subjected to lately.

Todd, not sure I understand this. here are my thoughts:
1. A double is first and foremost a hunting rifle. There are fewer hunters in the USA than in previous years, and, the type of hunting we do in the USA is not fully conducive to using a double.
2. The minute a new double comes out there are double aficionados who will rip it to shreds for whatever reason, witness the K gun and the Blaser, not to mention O/U doubles!
3. Not too many hunters can afford the 5K and up prices of the lower end doubles, forgetting the $20K price tag of the one in this thread!
Sorry but I don;t see "anti gun sentiment affecting the purchase of a double rifle by anyone who is interested , and can afford, one.
I am not aware of any import bans that would affect the market for decent doubles. I could be wrong of course.
Doubles are both functional and aesthetic. Both are responsible for the price tag!
Peter

Peter,

Your first comment I agree with and it goes to my point. Not sure the second point applies but your third point missed the mark a bit. When I said "anti", I didn't mean anit-gun sentiment, but rather anti-hunter sentiment and the restrictions on trophy imports they have been successful with of late. To put a fine point on it, take a look at the used DR market. Prices are plummeting. Any ideas why?

Antidotally, it appears to me that the prices started falling about the same time as when the Zim elephant ban on imports to the USA began. How many ele hunts have been canceled since the ban went into place early 2014? And most guys, client hunters, not PHs, that hunt with doubles, do so for elephant and to a lessor extent, buffalo. With elephant unavailable for import from Zim, and Zim being the more affordable ele hunts by far, I think it would be hard to argue the ele hunting market hasn't been hit hard, and by extension, the DR market.

I"m kind of hoping we may see some turn around and movement in the right direction on that matter soon however. Time will tell. Would be a real shame to see the gun makers who are finally listening to the market put DR production back on the shelf like they did after the 458WM hit the market and DR ammo dried up mid 20th century.

Peter, here's how I see it. For the most part, a large-bore double rifle is for one purpose, to hunt Africa. But with the constant barrage of bad news concerning African hunting, enthusiasm is starting to wane....Cecil publicity, trophy import restrictions, CITES upgrades, ebola, Boko Harum...for those who might have considered going to Africa, such press may put them off. Also, many who have tried a double rifle for hunting have reverted back to magazine rifles, finding them more familiar and effective.But I think the most important part of the decline lies in our age group. We grew up watching Tarzan, reading Ruark, Capstick and Hemmingway, and dreamed of hunting the Dark Continent. But now our age group is to the point where our best days are behind us. Pensions and Social Security incomes may restrict our ability to run off to Africa with the latest in double rifles. Friends in the gun trades tell me that firearm sales are healthy, but not for the kind of firearms we prefer...Black rifles and handguns are the hot commodities with our younger generations.

I'm just glad I got to do it while I could.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Peter, here's how I see it. For the most part, a large-bore double rifle is for one purpose, to hunt Africa. But with the constant barrage of bad news concerning African hunting, enthusiasm is starting to wane....Cecil publicity, trophy import restrictions, CITES upgrades, ebola, Boko Harum...for those who might have considered going to Africa, such press may put them off. Also, many who have tried a double rifle for hunting have reverted back to magazine rifles, finding them more familiar and effective.But I think the most important part of the decline lies in our age group. We grew up watching Tarzan, reading Ruark, Capstick and Hemmingway, and dreamed of hunting the Dark Continent. But now our age group is to the point where our best days are behind us. Pensions and Social Security incomes may restrict our ability to run off to Africa with the latest in double rifles. Friends in the gun trades tell me that firearm sales are healthy, but not for the kind of firearms we prefer...Black rifles and handguns are the hot commodities with our younger generations.

I'm just glad I got to do it while I could.

100%

Todd, thanks for the clarification. I admit I misunderstood your point. You and Biebs make perfectly valid points. In my own case, I went on a plains game hunt in Namibia, enjoyed it so much that I started to plan a DG hunt, for which, as you pointed out, I bought some doubles! That hunt never happened! In large part though this was because the price of ele hunts went up significantly. I can afford one, but just choose not to. I now enjoy shooting more than I do hunting. For one, I can do a lot more of the former! I still have my doubles although I did sell my M.K. Owen in 450NE. Biebs raises an interesting point about a generational influence on double rifles.
Peter

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Peter, here's how I see it. For the most part, a large-bore double rifle is for one purpose, to hunt Africa. But with the constant barrage of bad news concerning African hunting, enthusiasm is starting to wane....Cecil publicity, trophy import restrictions, CITES upgrades, ebola, Boko Harum...for those who might have considered going to Africa, such press may put them off. Also, many who have tried a double rifle for hunting have reverted back to magazine rifles, finding them more familiar and effective.But I think the most important part of the decline lies in our age group. We grew up watching Tarzan, reading Ruark, Capstick and Hemmingway, and dreamed of hunting the Dark Continent. But now our age group is to the point where our best days are behind us. Pensions and Social Security incomes may restrict our ability to run off to Africa with the latest in double rifles. Friends in the gun trades tell me that firearm sales are healthy, but not for the kind of firearms we prefer...Black rifles and handguns are the hot commodities with our younger generations.

I'm just glad I got to do it while I could.

Not so sure about the age group argument Jon. When Heym hosted its shoot in Dallas in October one of the most surprising things to me was the number of younger double owners. It was so noticeable I think I even commented on it when I posted about the event. The younger men were not there to play with doubles owned by older shooters, they were there shooting doubles they owned. Admittedly that is a small data set but it was different enough from my expectations that I noticed it. Nostalgia may be alive and well regardless of generation.

quote:

Nostalgia may be alive and well regardless of generation.

Mike

Mike, I sure hope you're right.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Not so sure about the age group argument Jon. When Heym hosted its shoot in Dallas in October one of the most surprising things to me was the number of younger double owners. It was so noticeable I think I even commented on it when I posted about the event. The younger men were not there to play with doubles owned by older shooters, they were there shooting doubles they owned. Admittedly that is a small data set but
it was different enough from my expectations that I noticed it. Nostalgia may be alive and well regardless of generation.

Todd, and Beibs both have very good points, and I agree with them both. However Mike seems to have Chrystal ball hidden somewhere in his trophy room, because his predictions seem to come to pass far more that they fail to!

Of course the old guys who have been playing with doubles most of their adult life will, at least, hang on to the doubles they have, and buy others when a bargain is found regardless of their smaller retirement income.

I must agree with both Todd, and Biebs on the younger generation being prone to buy machinegun look-alikes and high capacity handguns. I said, years ago, when I saw nothing at gun shows but military junk on every table that these things would be our down fall!

The public in general do not understand these things and are of the opinion that they are all machineguns not hunting guns. They are wrong of course but they are the ones backing the gun grabbers in Washington!

.....................................................................

No crystal ball here for sure . . . just look at my consistently off base election predictions . . . and my data set is exceedingly small, but I was surprised for sure at the number of younger shooters at the Heym event. Not just young shooters but young double rifle owners. Sometimes I think as we get older we fall into the trap of thinking things will never be the same as they were for us, never be as good as we had it, the better days are behind us, etc. I am sure my Dad said the same thing and his Dad before him and so forth for generations. I guess we will all have to just stick around for the next several decades and see how it all plays out.

Here is a really small "data set"

I bought my first double when I was 34 and had dreamed of owning one since I was in my early 20's....I started reading Capstick and in particular Boddington's Safari Rifles and I was hooked.

...also makers like Heym, VC, Searcy, ect. have really helped provide younger guys with the ability to afford and purchase a DR long before they could buy a vintage one....Even if I could have afforded a vintage gun, I was never comfortable enough pick one out due to my lack of knowledge. The last thing I needed in my early 30's would be to buy a pre war gun only to find out the barrels were junk and the gun was off face.

quote:

I bought my first double when I was 34 and had dreamed of owning one since I was in my early 20's

Now that you're 70, what do you think :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:

quote:

I bought my first double when I was 34 and had dreamed of owning one since I was in my early 20's

Now that you're 70, what do you think :-)

This cold snap we just had this past week makes me feel 70...

quote:

we will all have to just stick around for the next several decades and see how it all plays out.

One can but hope!!!
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:

quote:

Nostalgia may be alive and well regardless of generation.

Mike

Mike, I sure hope you're right.

Today I got to handle a friend's 1903 drop lock Westley Richards in 256 mannlicher. To say I felt nostalgic would be an understatement. I still have a shit-eating grin on my face.

Nostalgia is gasping for air among the under 50 generation; this is the first generation that will not do as well, financially, as their parents and it takes money to support nostalgia in the form of double rifles and African hunts. It is simple economics. I talk to young guys/shooters all the time and they have no concept of the things we think are neat Hell. even walnut stocked rifles are hardly being made any more; just look in any gun store and all you will see is plastic. Sad, but each era comes and goes; some come back; some don't. It's like Rhino hunting; once was very popular; it ain't coming back. Of course there will always be some collectors, but trends come and go.

Very well stated dpcd.

Our market is relatively acute, but I have definitely seen the average age of our clients trending downward.

Personally, I think this has negatively impacted "classic" double sales, but it has also been positive for new double sales.

Nostalgia DOES cost money! Having said that, wood stocks were that way because it was the only material available for the purpose! Now we have various materials to choose from. I have a Tikka T3, 308 in a composite stock. It is very accurate and is an all weather rifle. I would not go to war with a wood rifle stock! The differing materials have a role to play. So, a double rifle with a synthetic stock would be a contradiction IMHO!
Peter.

Wood selecting at the Heym factory.
Best wishes.

I wasnt exactly the wood that cought my eye there, Herr Bock...

quote:

Originally posted by Pondoro:
I wasnt exactly the wood that cought my eye there, Herr Bock...

What wood?
Is there wood in the photo?
Cal

No Cal.

Now YOU tell me WHO has the wood?

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by Pondoro:
I wasnt exactly the wood that cought my eye there, Herr Bock...

What wood?
Is there wood in the photo?
Cal

The lady is an huntress from U.

She hunts allways with Heym, mostly with an (older) Heym Express light.

Now she wants to buy an (very exclusive) Heym double.
:-)

To your questions Gentleman, she loves to hunt in the forests, mostly from the back of great horses...

quote:

Nostalgia is gasping for air among the under 50 generation; this is the first generation that will not do as well, financially, as their parents and it takes money to support nostalgia in the form of double rifles and African hunts. It is simple economics. I talk to young guys/shooters all the time and they have no concept of the things we think are neat Hell. even walnut stocked rifles are hardly being made any more; just look in any gun store and all you will see is plastic. Sad, but each era comes and goes; some come back; some don't. It's like Rhino hunting; once was very popular; it ain't coming back. Of course there will always be some collectors, but trends come and go.

100%.

When I was in my thirties 1987 to 1997 I wanted a Boss SLE. The ones I looked at cost around 10,000 UK Pounds.

Twenty years later and at fifty-nine I could afford to buy one. And the ones I looked at cost around 10,000 UK Pounds. So I did. And re-stocked to fit.

Like you say nobody, now, in their thirties wants these things. Just us late middle age "odd uns". It's all Beretta SO and top end grade Perazzi MX over/unders.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:

Like you say nobody, now, in their thirties wants these things. Just us late middle age "odd uns".

Curious, so how do you explain the 20 and 30 year olds at the Heym shoot that already own doubles and were ordering another? Or Chris's comment above that the average age of his customers is trending downward?

Ah, that's the US.

Here, today, in the UK it's rare to go on a driven day where the number of people using sided by side guns is greater than the number using over and under guns.

Yet when I started shooting you never saw an over and under on a driven day. Yes Boss, Woofdward, Purdey made them but you never a continental O/U being used. Nowadays it's rarely anything but...