Fair enough...

I think these makers are close but they need to finish off these rifles the last 1%. Some, maybe the last 5%...

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Nonsense. Only if a mechanical problem with the sears, etc., will doubling occur if the rear trigger is pulled first. Two gents had my .450 and .600 double and they fired the front trigger first. I shoot the rear first and have done so for a long time and never, ever, had a double issue.
Cal

Cal I presume you accept that a double shotgun with double triggers is designed, in deference to the set up of the chokes in the individual barrels, to fire the front trigger first and presumably this is how you would use such a shotgun.
I think by definition double rifles when they were first made following on from double shotguns, and still today, are also designed to fire the front trigger first.

Now in your case you choose to use the rear trigger first which from your conversation is not because it is some affliction unique to you but because it lessens or eliminates doubling of a rifle.
One solution to a problem but it doesn't answer or solve the root cause of the problem. Transvaal seems to have a valid point as to what is likely to cause doubling.

I have used several double triggered shotguns over the years, most old as the hills and starting from before I was in my teens but I have never ever experienced a double discharge. Always used front trigger first. I have now used a single trigger O/U shotgun firing god knows how many rounds for hunting and competition and again never once experienced a double discharge and never once have seen such a thing happen to any other shooter in competition.

Why would a single trigger gun have any less propensity to double than a double trigger gun as far as the mechanicals of the guns go, leaving the shooter out of it.

If some double rifles have a propensity to double and others of similar recoil etc. don't then the root cause is either the shooter or poor design/adjustment of the gun. Why not identify and fix rather than change to pulling the rear trigger first.
I don't own double rifles, have used a few, but I would be as frustrated as hell if I couldn't identify and fix a problem gun and had to resort to a firing technique that was at odds with the norm.

I agree shotguns, due to choke, are designed to fire the front trigger first. For shotguns with identical chokes (Such as my Jeffery waterfowl gun choked F&F) it matters not. I don't believe there is "design" built into a double to fire one trigger before the other (on a two-triggered weapon).

I have fired the left barrel first for 25 years as it is more comfortable for me and I believe I shoot it more accurately with my finger comfortably on the closer trigger than reaching the finger forward and extra 3/4 of an inch to the from trigger. It is not right or wrong, it is just what I've always done. The fact that I've never had a doubling incident is just coincidence, maybe.

I really don't understand the doubling issue as to "fanning" the rear trigger. I really don't see the mechanical probability of a finger firing the front trigger and then slipping back to "strum" the rear trigger. In both cases when two gents doubled my rifles (Jim and my .450 no2 Lang and [my correction] two gents with my .600) I was there and I do not recall and shot and a second shot a split second after. Neither did those in attendance who discussed the matter. It seemed to all of us, including the shooters, both barrels fired at the same time. The .600 Wilkes double was a local MD with lots of double experience, and also a guest to our shoots from New Zealand.

I guess I really can't provide a definite answer. It would be nice to focus a slow motion camera on the trigger fingers and catch a double firing incident. Then we would all know.

I will stay out of the modern vs. vintage argument as none of us need anything to shoot, it is what we want to own and shoot.

Cheers, my mates.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

I agree shotguns, due to choke, are designed to fire the front trigger first.For shotguns with identical chokes (Such as my Jeffery waterfowl gun choked F&F) it matters not. I don't believe there is "design" built into a double to fire one trigger before the other (on a two-triggered weapon). [/B]

Cal you are correct in the case of the gun having identical chokes, I maters not! If the gun has different chokes in each barrel one must be able to fire either trigger at will. A bird coming in especially if coming in in pairs the tight choke will be fired first and then at the un-hit bird slides in closer before turning the open choke is used, and vive versa for walking up birds where the open choke is used first, and the tighter choke as the bird get farther out is used. This is the reason most all O/U and single trigger single trigger guns have selective triggers so the change in choke selection is possible.

quote:

I really don't understand the doubling issue as to "fanning" the rear trigger. I really don't see the mechanical probability of a finger firing the front trigger and then slipping back to "strum" the rear trigger. In both cases when two gents doubled my rifles (Jim and my .450 no2 Lang and [my correction] two gents with my .600) I was there and I do not recall and shot and a second shot a split second after. Neither did those in attendance who discussed the matter. It seemed to all of us, including the shooters, both barrels fired at the same time. I guess I really can't provide a definite answer. It would be nice to focus a slow motion camera on the trigger fingers and catch a double firing incident. Then we would all know.

The fanning/strumming is cause most times by a person who is firing a rifle that has far more recoil than he is used to or doesn’t expect. The doublings are so close together that one rarely knows that both barrels have fired. They usually swear they only fired one barrel till they open the rifle and find both fired.
The phenomenon involved in the strumming is tied to the unexpected recoil, and the grip on the trigger hand and the fingers perches on the front trigger. The heavy recoil pushes the shooters shoulder rapidly back while the trigger hand slides slightly forward letting the trigger finger off the front trigger and when the shooters shoulder moves forward again the back trigger hits the finger causing the back trigger to fire. In fact a single trigger can get a double discharge fore the same reason with the gun coming back at hitting the trigger finger. I had my youngest son get a DD on a single trigger 12 ga double on a shotgun I had had for years with no such happening, and like most I couldn’t understand how that was possible unless something was amiss inside the action. There was nothing wrong with the shotgun and that puzzled me for years. My son was only five at the time and was small for his age. I mentioned this on this website four or five years ago, and was told by a competition sporting clays shooter that novices often get double discharges with single trigger guns. He explained to me why this happened to my five year old recoil being harder on him than us and not to me or my older sons with this shotgun as I described above.
Your idea of a slow-motion camera trained on the trigger hands of shooters is a good idea. However one never knows when a strumming will occur.

Like you, I’ve had one double discharge in all the years I have been shooting double barreled guns and rifles and that one was with very light 9.3X74R double that because I was not expecting the amount of recoil it would generate, being used to very large bore doubles, I did not hold the rifle properly. I’ve had that ONE double discharge in 58 years of shooting double rifles, and 65 yrs of shooting double barreled shotguns, I’ve never had a mechanically caused double discharge in my life of just under the age of 80 years.
.....................................................................

I'm convinced most doubling is done by bolt gun shooters who are used to light triggers, I find a lot of them don't follow through with the trigger pull after firing causing trigger fingers to flip around unnecessarily.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Little:
I'm convinced most doubling is done by bolt gun shooters who are used to light triggers, I find a lot of them don't follow through with the trigger pull after firing causing trigger fingers to flip around unnecessarily.

Now the above is a man who can say volumes with very few words! Absolutely true words as well!
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Maybe so, but not in the fifteen documented cases with Merkels. How come we hardly EVER see or hear about other makers with this issue?

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Maybe so, but not in the fifteen documented cases with Merkels. How come we hardly EVER see or hear about other makers with this issue?

Jorge, the only place we hear of all those doublings is from one person, YOU! Strange isn't it?
....................................................................

My Merkel digested 20 trail boss loads and 20 full power loads this am without any doubling events. I shall continue to count myself as lucky, I suppose?

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Maybe so, but not in the fifteen documented cases with Merkels. How come we hardly EVER see or hear about other makers with this issue?

Jorge, the only place we hear of all those doublings is from one person, YOU! Strange isn't it?
....................................................................

What's strange,no pathetic is your inability to click on links to other threads and on other websites posted by OTHER people about Merkels, not to mention other threads by other posters here, and even stranger that one "supposedly" is the Orifice At Delphi of doubles refuses to acknowledge fact because "HE" has decreed his affinity for Merkels, so we all have to assume said endorsement comes from the Burning Bush. I really DGAF what you think or do, but when you impugn my integrity you can just go ahead and FOAD.

PS: Here's just one link started by my other login name of course... Merkel I can post more and embarrass you further if you'd like.

My data set is fairly limited. I owned one Merkel. It doubled twice. Both times were in the field while hunting elephant. Both times were my fault, not mechanical. Obviously just anecdotal.

I bought a brand new Merkel in 500NE, the first firing with Hornady 570 cartridges and it doubled on the forward trigger being fired...a real wake up. I figured a brand new quality double it must have been me. Well I has so much faith in the gun I tried her again and she slapped me twice, after that I put a live round in the left barrel and an empty in the right would not double, when I reversed the live round each time both casings would come flying out. Maybe that was a get out jail card when the big tusker is inches away you pull the right and give him both? but I don't think so

The gunsmith at Merkel asked if I knew how to shoot a double. ye, one barrel at a time I thought?

The repair ticket said they cleaned the gun (after 12 rounds?) and inserted a shim....whatever that means nevertheless it doesn't double any more

For you gents who have experienced a double discharge, did your rifle seem to

1. fire both barrels at once, or

2. did you notice a first and then a second shot after a split second?

Cheers,
Cal

Jorge, I recall a few other threads on this topic in which you pointed to the (then) 14 doubling events. I can't seem to find them now (was it here or 24hrCF?), but did any of the owners come to any definitive fixes for their rifles? If so, what were they?


Any links would be greatly appreciated.

In real time the shots appear to merge into one and from a shooter's perspective I perceived a single shot; however, in my case which involved operator error, when viewed on video in slow motion there are two distinct shots with the left barrel firing a nanosecond after the right barrel. In both cases only the bullet fired from the right barrel struck the elephant.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
For you gents who have experienced a double discharge, did your rifle seem to

1. fire both barrels at once, or

2. did you notice a first and then a second shot after a split second?

Cheers,
Cal

Cal,

When I doubled your old boat anchor Lang it sure felt like one shot. That said after doubling my .450 twice at the range (with many proper single intended shots in between) and once while aimed at a retreating Elephant in 2015 with Buzz I do think there is a nano second between barrels discharging and the fault, like Mike Jines admits, is entirely mine and not the fine gentlemen from 1902 that built the gun.

Cheers
Gentleman Jim

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Maybe so, but not in the fifteen documented cases with Merkels. How come we hardly EVER see or hear about other makers with this issue?

Jorge, the only place we hear of all those doublings is from one person, YOU! Strange isn't it?
....................................................................

What's strange,no pathetic is your inability to click on links to other threads and on other websites posted by OTHER people about Merkels, not to mention other threads by other posters here, and even stranger that one "supposedly" is the Orifice At Delphi of doubles refuses to acknowledge fact because "HE" has decreed his affinity for Merkels, so we all have to assume said endorsement comes from the Burning Bush. I really DGAF what you think or do, but when you impugn my integrity you can just go ahead and FOAD.

PS: Here's just one link started by my other login name of course... Merkel I can post more and embarrass you further if you'd like.

Jorge,

There are probably many here who aren't familiar with the terms DGAF and FOAD. Perhaps you could elaborate?

I'll let "google" be their friend, but whilst I'm at it, here's more of my "made up" stuff:
doubling

Short & sweet

My Merkel .470 has never doubled.
I personally am faster with a bolt gun than a double.
I have bought 6 doubles trying to figure out what I am missing. Conclusion-nothing, still prefer by bolt action.
I have been on 11 safaris and not one PH carried a double.
I do think doubles are cool though.

I had a 2x3 foot cardboard at 20 yards when I did my first firing (it was the 1st double) there was only one hole from what I was aiming for. Don't know where the other barrel hit but that tells me it fired a millisecond latter while the gun was in its recoil, however it was so close in sound that you would think the went off together.

The second double firing I really wasn't aiming just waiting to see what was to happen
In defense of Merkel I have fired this gun maybe 50 or so times without a problem with right barrel(forward trigger)

I had sxs shotgun double on me several times but it did not start till after a couple of years probably from a improperly fitted stock that shot itself in so to speak. I would expect that. The funny thing was it was a Full/mod barrel set and it only doubled when I fired the rear trigger (full) first which was rarely done so it took a while to fire that out till one day I had opened the gun up and saw two unfired shells then kaboom when I opened I saw the that both primers where hit...it had extractors so I had to remove casings

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
For you gents who have experienced a double discharge, did your rifle seem to

1. fire both barrels at once, or

2. did you notice a first and then a second shot after a split second?

Cheers,
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
I'll let "google" be their friend, but whilst I'm at it, here's more of my "made up" stuff:
doubling

Thanks, Jorge, that's the one I was thinking of. Seems like in that case Merkel upfitted the rifle with the newer intercepting sears??

Brandon: There are a few out there, and if you took the time to do a search, you will find them. Last year whilst at the Dallas Safari Convention, I spoke with one of the guys at the annual DR shoot that takes place in Texas and he related there were more than one, but that Merkel will make it right. The problem is that way too many for my taste have (or had) this issue, and I for one do not want to ever have that experience, as it could really make you develop a flinch.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
The problem is that way too many for my taste have (or had) this issue, and I for one do not want to ever have that experience, as it could really make you develop a flinch.

I couldn't disagree with that at all. Keeping my fingers crossed that mine continues to function well. Honestly, if I were to do it all again, I'd probably go 500NE in a VC.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Maybe so, but not in the fifteen documented cases with Merkels. How come we hardly EVER see or hear about other makers with this issue?

Jorge, the only place we hear of all those doublings is from one person, YOU! Strange isn't it?
....................................................................

What's strange,no pathetic is your inability to click on links to other threads and on other websites posted by OTHER people about Merkels, not to mention other threads by other posters here, and even stranger that one "supposedly" is the Orifice At Delphi of doubles refuses to acknowledge fact because "HE" has decreed his affinity for Merkels, so we all have to assume said endorsement comes from the Burning Bush. I really DGAF what you think or do, but when you impugn my integrity you can just go ahead and FOAD.

PS: Here's just one link started by my other login name of course... Merkel I can post more and embarrass you further if you'd like.

Hmm, I thought the DR gang treated one another as gentleman, specially when they disagree.

I spoke to Cal not too long ago about this. I have a 9 or 10 year old LARM (Armeria de Madrid) 500NE, back action side-lock. I had it made to my specs, in all regards.

They asked me SPECIFICALLY about which trigger I would normally reach for first. I queried as to why. They responded that the trigger you pull first, will have a significantly lighter trigger pull the your normal second shot. (it does)

So, it would make sense that it may double if I shoot the rear trigger first, simply based on recoil and a light trigger.

Also, I have had one DR double on me. My first DR was a Kreighoff .470 my wife bought for me about 15 years ago. I doubled it the day after Christmas, with the third (and fourth) shots through the rifle. Operator error.

I shot Cals .600 over in Australia. I only put one round in it.

quote:

I shot Cals .600 over in Australia. I only put one round in it.

No, Steve, it was two shots--just doubled on you.
Cal

quote:

Hmm, I thought the DR gang treated one another as gentleman, specially when they disagree.

Until one's integrity is impugned. Carry on.

quote:

They asked me SPECIFICALLY about which trigger I would normally reach for first. I queried as to why. They responded that the trigger you pull first, will have a significantly lighter trigger pull the your normal second shot. (it does)

Now that is something I had not considered.

It would be a good project for the double owners here to measure their trigger weight on their doubles to see if this is coming into play.
I always figured that the big bore doubles would have comparatively heavy triggers compared to bolt guns or lighter non DG rifles.
I guess one could hope that the lighter trigger is the one they want to use first anyway.

You guys sure put up with a lot to shoot rifles whose technology was surpassed in the early 1900s! (zing)

Ah but nothing can replace the look and the feel of a nice double whether rifle, shotgun or M/L and I have them all

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
You guys sure put up with a lot to shoot rifles whose technology was surpassed in the early 1900s! (zing)

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
You guys sure put up with a lot to shoot rifles whose technology was surpassed in the early 1900s! (zing)

Some folks have all their taste in their mouth.

When you think about it, our love of doubles is very similar to our love of Harley Davidsons. Both are based on 100 year old technology, and cost several or more times what another comparable products cost, and have long since been replaced by cheaper, more reliable and efficient brands, but we buy them anyway!

When we buy Double rifles or Harleys, we are buying an image....of the African safari movies of our youth in the case of a double, or to project the tough, loud macho-man image associated with the Harley Davidson brand.

Go figure!

Up close, in thick jesse, against buffalo or elephant . . . the design and practicality of the double over a bolt rifle is proven year after year.

Mike, how's your Harley running? :-)

You mean the Norton . . . ?

Norton Commando? I used to ride with a guy who had one, back in the day. Great exhaust note and stellar handling!

I was just kidding . . . trying to pull the English versus Continental issue into the back and forth.

If you still had the Norton, it would be worth the price of a nice double.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Double Rifle Trigger Pull Weights

Interesting.
Looks as thought the majority have a lighter front trigger - meaning front first, no?

Correct. Theory being . . . as explained to me by someone trained at Purdy . . . is that the rear trigger (left barrel) is set higher to ensure that the recoil from the right barrel (front trigger) firing does not inadvertently cause the left barrel to fire . . . so set slightly higher as an added measure of safety against such a result.

I have always preferred 2.5lbs on the front trigger and 3.5 lbs on the rear. I have owned and shot at least a dozen Merkel DR's and never once has one doubled on me. I watched two clients double a Merkel .500, both times video proved it was a strumming of the rear trigger by the operator. I once posted a video here of the strumming.

I am of the belief that overly soft trigger pulls probably result in true doubling of DR's, but most "doubling" is a result of strumming.