Gents, over on 24HR Campfire, a new thread started on the never ending "which trigger does one pull first" non-issue, but it did pose a second more interesting question, basically,if one pulls the rear trigger first, the rifle will always double, which I think it's nonsense, on a properly tuned rifle. And this time it involves a Heym.
DOUBLING

Absolutely and patently false. If your rifle is doubling on an aft trigger pull you've got a serious issue with the rifle.

i've had 2 470's that dpib;ed frequent;y - solution was to trade em off. on better made rifles not on a blaser

Nonsense. Only if a mechanical problem with the sears, etc., will doubling occur if the rear trigger is pulled first. Two gents had my .450 and .600 double and they fired the front trigger first. I shoot the rear first and have done so for a long time and never, ever, had a double issue.
Cal

A number of things can cause doubling on DR's.

One item that a owner can check for himself is the amount of clearance (in thousands of an inch) that the triggers have between themselves and the sears. With the safety on and chambers empty, grasp each trigger individually with fore finger and thumb and attempt to move it to the rear as if you were to pull the triggers, as well as moving the trigger towards the muzzle. No movement should be present either direction. Next with the chambers empty push the safety off and slightly grasp the triggers and move them to the rear. There should be .002 to.004" at min between the triggers and sears with the safety off. I prefer a min amount of clearance. If there is no clearance at all, then you have a DR that is a candidate for doubling as well as firing when you are in the heat of a deadly battle and slam the DR closed.

I have experience with this happening on double guns and rifles and it is not fun, but it is easy to repair. One of the ways that the clearance can get out of whack is that a owner or an under educated "gunsmith" with tighten the handpin (the screw that is under the trigger guard at the rear) too deeply and thereby removing all the clearance that the original DR maker had between the triggers and the sears when the DR left his shop. Sometimes the clearance is taken away due to the butt stock swelling in high humidity or rain.

A skilled and experienced double rifle gunsmith will always check the trigger to sear clearance after he re-assembles a double rifle, because he has been caught with his pants down in the past by angry customer with a sore shoulder by not doing this after he serviced customers .500 Express.

Best quality DR and gunmakers (Purdey, H&H, Boss, Wilkes, Grant and so forth) in UK make/made their hand pins where they cannot be turned to far inward and delete the trigger-sear clearance. This is done by threading the pin(screw to us Americans) just enough and no more. An English best rifle gunmaker will spend hours making these pins perfect. By-in- large continental makers do not thread their pins short and the pin(s) can be turned to deeply. This is not always the case with continental firearms, and also those continental "best makers" (i.e. Belgian, Hartmann & Weiss and so forth) do the same as their British colleagues. Today's continental made DR's ( best quality and common grades) are wonderfully made as well as beautiful. Hartmann & Weiss rifles and guns are the best in the world, bar none. Alas they are retiring from the trade.

I am new, so f anyone could double a rifle it is me. I have got 45 rounds thru my new heym and no doubling. I have tried the triggers both ways. For the first four shots per range session I single load just in case. I use the heym cocking indicators to see if I double the rifle. I have not had a strum firing front trigger first or a jar firing back trigger first.

I suggest the owner of the rifle in question call Mr. Sells immediately.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
Absolutely and patently false. If your rifle is doubling on an aft trigger pull you've got a serious issue with the rifle.

SPOT ON

The doubling dilemma makes me question how one places their finger on the trigger and where on the finger the trigger contacts.

I shoot my Merkel exclusively front trigger first and have yet (approx 200 full power rounds and about half that trail boss loads) to have it double on me. I do have a tendency to bury the trigger closer to my DIP, rather than right in the center of the pad of my finger.

Some of the very first 88Bs @ 1981 were made with only one intercepting sear, and that was on the rear trigger. I've only seen one such rifle, but there are some out there.

If the rifle is doubling, then the intercepting sear and or trigger needs to be adjusted.

Believe it or not, man-made things can and do break from time-to-time. Unfortunately, I fear this may always be the case.

I have no idea what the actual details are on this particular rilfe, but I have reached out to the OP, and we'll get this sorted out.

I was hoping you'd chime in. Primarily because I was convinced he was getting bad advice from someone at Heym. It doesn't get any more reliable than Heym rifles.

I wonder when everyone will admit they use a double for nostalgia and stop pretending it's some magical DG weapon. They used it at the turn of the century because it's what they had. A big bore bolt is better pick for any safari. I don't wanna hear about "nothing is faster for a second shot." Ya..well nothing is slower for all the rest and the first one is the one that really counts. So let's see...1st shot is equal..2nd is faster for a double...3rd WAY faster for a bolt. Two outta three wins where I was raised. With as many doubling threads as I've seen on this forum in the past decade..one wonders if the dreamers might step back in to reality for just a second and confess.

I'll go first...I bought a double because I like the idea of hunting with a weapon from the "golden age of safari". It is not a better choice than my Mauser or various other bolt action rifles. Boy, that felt good, now your turn.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
I wonder when everyone will admit they use a double for nostalgia and stop pretending it's some magical DG weapon. They used it at the turn of the century because it's what they had. A big bore bolt is better pick for any safari. I don't wanna hear about "nothing is faster for a second shot." Ya..well nothing is slower for all the rest and the first one is the one that really counts. So let's see...1st shot is equal..2nd is faster for a double...3rd WAY faster for a bolt. Two outta three wins where I was raised. With as many doubling threads as I've seen on this forum in the past decade..one wonders if the dreamers might step back in to reality for just a second and confess.

I'll go first...I bought a double because I like the idea of hunting with a weapon from the "golden age of safari". It is not a better choice than my Mauser or various other bolt action rifles. Boy, that felt good, now your turn.

I will fully admit to the nostalgia angle, but riddle me this, why is it when given a choice, PHs prefer doubles? As to your second comment regarding the "all you need is one shot if you place the first in the right place" panacea, If a double offers two, why do you need a third if you hit them right in the first place? BTW, I am in complete agreement a scoped bolt action is definitively better for a safari. No arguments there.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
I wonder when everyone will admit they use a double for nostalgia and stop pretending it's some magical DG weapon. They used it at the turn of the century because it's what they had. A big bore bolt is better pick for any safari. I don't wanna hear about "nothing is faster for a second shot." Ya..well nothing is slower for all the rest and the first one is the one that really counts. So let's see...1st shot is equal..2nd is faster for a double...3rd WAY faster for a bolt. Two outta three wins where I was raised. With as many doubling threads as I've seen on this forum in the past decade..one wonders if the dreamers might step back in to reality for just a second and confess.

I'll go first...I bought a double because I like the idea of hunting with a weapon from the "golden age of safari". It is not a better choice than my Mauser or various other bolt action rifles. Boy, that felt good, now your turn.

I will fully admit to the nostalgia angle, but riddle me this, why is it when given a choice, PHs prefer doubles? As to your second comment regarding the "all you need is one shot if you place the first in the right place" panacea, If a double offers two, why do you need a third if you hit them right in the first place? BTW, I am in complete agreement a scoped bolt action is definitively better for a safari. No arguments there.

PH's aren't exempt from nostalgia...it might have a lot to do with their choosen profession.

I didn't mean to imply "one is all you need". I'm simply saying if follow up shots are required, then you're left with a back and forth game of some shots are quicker and so on. It is commonly thought that having a completely seperate set of firing mechanisms and barrel make for a redundant back up system...problem is that this brings a whole set of issues that a bolt doesn't suffer from. What was gained in theory is now lost in practice it seems.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
>>snip~I don't wanna hear about "nothing is faster for a second shot." Ya..well nothing is slower for all the rest and the first one is the one that really counts. So let's see...1st shot is equal..2nd is faster for a double...3rd WAY faster for a bolt.

.................... BULL CRAP! You have just never shot against a guy who can shoot and reload a double!

.................................................................

Then you've never seen someone who's truely skilled with a bolt.

Maybe another thread is appropriate...I apologize for the hijack

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
>>snip~I don't wanna hear about "nothing is faster for a second shot." Ya..well nothing is slower for all the rest and the first one is the one that really counts. So let's see...1st shot is equal..2nd is faster for a double...3rd WAY faster for a bolt.

.................... BULL CRAP! You have just never shot against a guy who can shoot and reload a double!

.................................................................

There is no way a double can beat a bolt on the third (or later) shots. You don't have to grasp anything (such as cartridges or even grasp the bolt)to quickly work the bolt or take the rifle down from your shoulder.

Why do PHs prefer heavy caliber doubles then? As explained by mine, my .375 H&H was the better hunting rifle but his .500 NE was the better STOPPING rifle. I believe he thought he might have to shoot at the last instant and probably could not get off more than two shots in any case.

That said, I think double rifles are really cool.

Mr Williams has a video where the double with ejectors is faster and more accurate with four than a bolt. The double w/o extractors was as fast to four. Of course, one and two are significantly faster with a double......

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
>>snip~I don't wanna hear about "nothing is faster for a second shot." Ya..well nothing is slower for all the rest and the first one is the one that really counts. So let's see...1st shot is equal..2nd is faster for a double...3rd WAY faster for a bolt.

.................... BULL CRAP! You have just never shot against a guy who can shoot and reload a double!

.................................................................

There is no way a double can beat a bolt on the third (or later) shots. You don't have to grasp anything (such as cartridges or even grasp the bolt)to quickly work the bolt or take the rifle down from your shoulder.

Why do PHs prefer heavy caliber doubles then? As explained by mine, my .375 H&H was the better hunting rifle but his .500 NE was the better STOPPING rifle. I believe he thought he might have to shoot at the last instant and probably could not get off more than two shots in any case.

That said, I think double rifles are really cool.

Bullshit. I personally watched a guy with a 500 Nitro shoot 4 shots at 50 yards faster than a guy did with a BAR rebarreled to 458 Win Mag. The double shooter kept all 4 shots in about a 6 inch circle as well. The Browning was maybe a 24 inch group at the same distance. I do not remember if the double had extractors or ejectors.

Isolated incident? Maybe, but it proves how fast a double can be in the hands of a good shooter.

This thread has deteriorated in to a mass-debate.

A very good bolt shooter can fire 6 rds in a three inch circle at 25yds in 6 seconds.Not taking any sides but that is what a double rifle shooter must be able to beat.This is assuming that the bolt rifle can hold 6 rds.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:

There is no way a double can beat a bolt on the third (or later) shots. You don't have to grasp anything (such as cartridges or even grasp the bolt)to quickly work the bolt or take the rifle down from your shoulder.

Why do PHs prefer heavy caliber doubles then? As explained by mine, my .375 H&H was the better hunting rifle but his .500 NE was the better STOPPING rifle. I believe he thought he might have to shoot at the last instant and probably could not get off more than two shots in any case.

That said, I think double rifles are really cool.

Doubles don't beat anything, it is the man shooting the double that is fast and accurate.

Don't bet your rent money on a bolt shooter shooting against a guy who can shoot and re-load a double rifle and keep his shots on target! If you do with several people I know you will be late with your rent, and walk away with a red face!

................................................................... ......

Here's the video referred to earlier:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SIaSDCCEN8

A couple of comments as we've been down this road before with the video.

First, Eric is an experienced big bore shooter. I specifically waited to do the video until I had someone with big bore experience in order to get a good comparison. Is Eric a professional? No. But he largely represents the type of guy who shows up to Africa with his DG rifle. BTW, Eric has 2 DG safaris under his belt.

Second, we started with Eric's 416 Rigby. A custom rig he commissioned several years ago. I'm not going to mention the name of the maker again as I received phone calls to take the video down when I identified the maker last time. I've shot that rifle many times, as has Eric. Never a hiccup. But, once the pressure was on to shoot accurately against the clock, he jammed it 3 times. We switched to my 416 Rigby. A CZ that has been worked over by one of the top CZ customizers. I've never had a hiccup with that rifle other than the trigger issue I've identified previously. And nothing since having it customized. Eric jammed that rifle the first try as well.

I've shot hundreds of rounds with Eric over the past 20 years. I've never seen him jam a rifle before this day. Again, he's not a pro but I'll wager he has fired more big bore rounds than the majority of guys who go on DG hunts. In other words, he's no novice.

I count 6 seconds on the Youtube clock from my first shot to my 4th. Accuracy counted as well so it wasn't just a matter of firing 4 rounds as fast as possible. Disregarding the fact that I got the first shot off before Eric, if counting from the time of his first shot to his 4th, I get 7 seconds.

As stated, it doesn't solve the old argument, but I've yet to see anyone else put up a similar video. If you know of one, please provide a link. I'd really like to see it. I'd also like to shoot against anyone else who'd like to do so. It really was a fun experiment.

Enjoy.

quote:

A CZ that has been worked over by one of the top CZ customizers. I've never had a hiccup with that rifle other than the trigger issue I've identified previously.

PM, please? I'd like to have mine done.

PS: so much for the double being slower on four shots and accuracy to boot.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

A CZ that has been worked over by one of the top CZ customizers. I've never had a hiccup with that rifle other than the trigger issue I've identified previously.

PM, please? I'd like to have mine done.

PS: so much for the double being slower on four shots and accuracy to boot.

PM sent Jorge!

Now that is settled with irrefutable evidence let us talk about the more important underlying issue...

Lets talk about all these mid-range doubles that are showing up new from the factory or very low round count that seem to have an unusually high failure rate. We have relatively new doubles from Heym, VC, Searcy and Merkel that need adjustments, repairs and the list goes on.

Are fit and finish or quality control lacking at these factories? Why do we have endless threads over the years of members just about ready to go on a hunt or just returned, telling us they're having an issue and JJ Perodeau saves the day or they need to send the rifle backto the factory for repair. Before we just toss it up to.."well anything mechanical can fail" stop to think for a moment about the quality that you expect for your money. These are not off the shelf rifles from Gander Mountain.

Excellent point.
Although I personally don't shoot my vintage doubles as much as many here, all of my doubles no doubt have hundreds or thousands of rounds through them.
Be they hammer or hammerless, British or European, I had never seen a double discharge, failure to fire, failure to open, failure to extract, in fact, no failure of any kind.
I know many here swear by new guns just as many swear at new guns but I am led by these stories to wonder just what one would save by buying a new gun over a well kept and proven vintage gun.

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
Excellent point.
Although I personally don't shoot my vintage doubles as much as many here, all of my doubles no doubt have hundreds or thousands of rounds through them.
Be they hammer or hammerless, British or European, I had never seen a double discharge, failure to fire, failure to open, failure to extract, in fact, no failure of any kind.
I know many here swear by new guns just as many swear at new guns but I am led by these stories to wonder just what one would save by buying a new gun over a well kept and proven vintage gun.

Of course, there is no proof that these vintage guns didn't have issues that needed smoothing out back when they were originally delivered. Hard to compare a rifle that's been around awhile and had any issues sorted out with a new gun that is just now being delivered. That said, I think we all agree that quality was more of a source of pride in days gone by.

We can't just speak to the mid grade guns of today. I've stated this before but I'll say it again. I have a friend that recently took delivery of a new H&H Royal. The rifle had to go back to the factory for re-regulation.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
------------. Lets talk about all these mid-range doubles that are showing up new from the factory or very low round count that seem to have an unusually high failure rate. We have relatively new doubles from Heym, VC, Searcy and Merkel that need adjustments, repairs and the list goes on.

Are fit and finish or quality control lacking at these factories? Why do we have endless threads over the years of members just about ready to go on a hunt or just returned, telling us they're having an issue and JJ Perodeau saves the day or they need to send the rifle backto the factory for repair. Before we just toss it up to.."well anything mechanical can fail" stop to think for a moment about the quality that you expect for your money. These are not off the shelf rifles from Gander Mountain.

well lets talk about Gulstream G550's, Bentleys, Rolexes that are new and have mechanical or other problems too while we are at it

fallible products made by fallible humans--

even the very best QC and CQI fail from time to time

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Of course, there is no proof that these vintage guns didn't have issues that needed smoothing out back when they were originally delivered. Hard to compare a rifle that's been around awhile and had any issues sorted out with a new gun that is just now being delivered.

I thought that would be brought up and this has been discussed before too.
IMO, the makers of double rifles, dangerous game rifles in particular, in that era HAD to deliver a product that was free of faults and incredibly unlikely to fail in the field. Their reputations (and the lives of their customers) depended on it.
Also, back in the heyday of the best British makers, there were craftsmen who worked only on actioning or lock making and nothing else. They knew what worked and what they were doing and did just that for decades. Properly fit and finished locks were expected to perform without fail for tens or hundreds of thousands of cycles - it was the norm.
Today, there is some of that tradition but not like during the end of the 19th Century or early 20th. Labor was cheap and makers could be very selective in whom they had working for them and the time spent on each arm insuring a quality product.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Here's the video referred to earlier:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SIaSDCCEN8

A couple of comments as we've been down this road before with the video.

First, Eric is an experienced big bore shooter. I specifically waited to do the video until I had someone with big bore experience in order to get a good comparison. Is Eric a professional? No. But he largely represents the type of guy who shows up to Africa with his DG rifle. BTW, Eric has 2 DG safaris under his belt.

Second, we started with Eric's 416 Rigby. A custom rig he commissioned several years ago. I'm not going to mention the name of the maker again as I received phone calls to take the video down when I identified the maker last time. I've shot that rifle many times, as has Eric. Never a hiccup. But, once the pressure was on to shoot accurately against the clock, he jammed it 3 times. We switched to my 416 Rigby. A CZ that has been worked over by one of the top CZ customizers. I've never had a hiccup with that rifle other than the trigger issue I've identified previously. And nothing since having it customized. Eric jammed that rifle the first try as well.

I've shot hundreds of rounds with Eric over the past 20 years. I've never seen him jam a rifle before this day. Again, he's not a pro but I'll wager he has fired more big bore rounds than the majority of guys who go on DG hunts. In other words, he's no novice.

I count 6 seconds on the Youtube clock from my first shot to my 4th. Accuracy counted as well so it wasn't just a matter of firing 4 rounds as fast as possible. Disregarding the fact that I got the first shot off before Eric, if counting from the time of his first shot to his 4th, I get 7 seconds.

As stated, it doesn't solve the old argument, but I've yet to see anyone else put up a similar video. If you know of one, please provide a link. I'd really like to see it. I'd also like to shoot against anyone else who'd like to do so. It really was a fun experiment.

Enjoy.

Thanks for posting the link again, and thanks for making the video--it was eye opening to me. If I ever get the time, I will compare my own ability with my 450 NE and my 416 Rem. That way I will know which one I myself am better with.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Nonsense. Only if a mechanical problem with the sears, etc., will doubling occur if the rear trigger is pulled first. Two gents had my .450 and .600 double and they fired the front trigger first. I shoot the rear first and have done so for a long time and never, ever, had a double issue.
Cal

Cal I presume you accept that a double shotgun with double triggers is designed, in deference to the set up of the chokes in the individual barrels, to fire the front trigger first and presumably this is how you would use such a shotgun.
I think by definition double rifles when they were first made following on from double shotguns, and still today, are also designed to fire the front trigger first.

Now in your case you choose to use the rear trigger first which from your conversation is not because it is some affliction unique to you but because it lessens or eliminates doubling of a rifle.
One solution to a problem but it doesn't answer or solve the root cause of the problem. Transvaal seems to have a valid point as to what is likely to cause doubling.

I have used several double triggered shotguns over the years, most old as the hills and starting from before I was in my teens but I have never ever experienced a double discharge. Always used front trigger first. I have now used a single trigger O/U shotgun firing god knows how many rounds for hunting and competition and again never once experienced a double discharge and never once have seen such a thing happen to any other shooter in competition.

Why would a single trigger gun have any less propensity to double than a double trigger gun as far as the mechanicals of the guns go, leaving the shooter out of it.

If some double rifles have a propensity to double and others of similar recoil etc. don't then the root cause is either the shooter or poor design/adjustment of the gun. Why not identify and fix rather than change to pulling the rear trigger first.
I don't own double rifles, have used a few, but I would be as frustrated as hell if I couldn't identify and fix a problem gun and had to resort to a firing technique that was at odds with the norm.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Nonsense. Only if a mechanical problem with the sears, etc., will doubling occur if the rear trigger is pulled first. Two gents had my .450 and .600 double and they fired the front trigger first. I shoot the rear first and have done so for a long time and never, ever, had a double issue.
Cal

The .450 gent would be me.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:
>>snip~I don't wanna hear about "nothing is faster for a second shot." Ya..well nothing is slower for all the rest and the first one is the one that really counts. So let's see...1st shot is equal..2nd is faster for a double...3rd WAY faster for a bolt.

.................... BULL CRAP! You have just never shot against a guy who can shoot and reload a double!

.................................................................

Paging Dr. Todd Williams, Dr. Williams ..... please put up your videos from yesteryear.

Oh crap!! Never-mind. Never reply to a post until you have read the whole thread.

Cheers
Jim

quote:

well lets talk about Gulstream G550's, Bentleys, Rolexes that are new and have mechanical or other problems too while we are at it

fallible products made by fallible humans--

even the very best QC and CQI fail from time to time

The things you listed are extremely complex mechanical devices with expected high maintenance costs..except for the Rolex.

...and as far as pre war British doubles...there is no way they would have tolerated the type of issues seen on newly made doubles. They would have been without rifles for most of their ivory hunting careers, considering how long the process of return/repair would have taken. Someone would have to study their logs to really know but it's less than unlikely.

For 20-30k these rifles should be good to go for a very long time...and all too often they show up with issues. So when you pick up your next Rolex let me know if you just shrug your shoulders when it's broke after the first week you wear it. Oh well..right?

quote:

Lets talk about all these mid-range doubles that are showing up new from the factory or very low round count that seem to have an unusually high failure rate. We have relatively new doubles from Heym, VC, Searcy and Merkel that need adjustments, repairs and the list goes on.

Define "unusually high failure rate", specifically when it comes to Heyms, VCs or Searcys. The only two with a somewhat verifiable track record are Merkel and Sabattis, neither of which is even in the same league as the others. It seems to me, you are looking for an issue that just isn't there in an effort to justify your original position.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Lets talk about all these mid-range doubles that are showing up new from the factory or very low round count that seem to have an unusually high failure rate. We have relatively new doubles from Heym, VC, Searcy and Merkel that need adjustments, repairs and the list goes on.

Define "unusually high failure rate", specifically when it comes to Heyms, VCs or Searcys. The only two with a somewhat verifiable track record are Merkel and Sabattis, neither of which is even in the same league as the others. It seems to me, you are looking for an issue that just isn't there in an effort to justify your original position.

No issues? Searcy has had more threads about things not working properly than all the others combined....I don't know how many times the "apologists" flocked to Butch's defense and gave a laundry list of excuses. Surely your memory isn't that bad?

Heym and VC have had less by far than the others but they are giving a pass just the same...Seems the more expensive the rifle, the more some here make excuses. For a rifle designed to save your life..the amount of quality you guys expect is minimal. If the good members of this forum want to continue pretending these midrange doubles are all they have ever dreamed of and have an excuse ready in their back pocket..then so be it.


You demand more in your daily lives..but when it comes to your beloved doubles you stand ready to apologize for it like you bought it off the rack for $300

. . . must be a slow pooh-slinging day in the Political Forum.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
. . . must be a slow pooh-slinging day in the Political Forum.

No..the usual liberal tards are posting their drivel...you were able to escape...i wasn't so lucky

but ya..

quote:

Originally posted by Heym 450/400:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Lets talk about all these mid-range doubles that are showing up new from the factory or very low round count that seem to have an unusually high failure rate. We have relatively new doubles from Heym, VC, Searcy and Merkel that need adjustments, repairs and the list goes on.

Define "unusually high failure rate", specifically when it comes to Heyms, VCs or Searcys. The only two with a somewhat verifiable track record are Merkel and Sabattis, neither of which is even in the same league as the others. It seems to me, you are looking for an issue that just isn't there in an effort to justify your original position.

No issues? Search has had more threads about things not working properly than all the others combined....I don't know how many times the "apologists" flocked to Butch's defense and gave a laundry list of excuses. Surely your memory isn't that bad?

Heym and VC have had less by far than the others but they are giving a pass just the same...Seems the more expensive the rifle, the more some here make excuses. For a rifle designed to save your life..the amount of quality you guys expect is minimal. If the good members of this forum want to continue pretending these midrange doubles are all they have ever dreamed of and have an excuse ready in their back pocket..then so be it.


You demand more in your daily lives..but when it comes to your beloved doubles you stand ready to apologize for it like you bought it off the rack for $300

Personally I don't care for Searcys and I dont consider them in the same class as VCs or Heyms so I honestly have not kept up. As to Heyms, other than the locus of this thread, I've never heard of an issue with one. As for VCs, I know of three on here (and one of them I didn't buy)and I very much remember Todd's posting of his problems with his and as far as vintage Brit doubles, we've had a few of those. Rest assured, had my VC had any issues, you guys would have been the second to know after the boys from VC.