ED
I will sell my BB to you one of a kind 450 3 1/4 NE for 30K
Larry

How much for a collapsible stock, tac rail, and forward pistol grip?

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
99.9 percent of the world didn't know the difference or cared anyway.

Count me as one who doesn't care. A popular book some years ago noted that only 1/3 of those who drive a Jaguar have a net worth of a million bucks. That thought crosses my mind every time I see an expensive car. To have 6% of your net worth tied up in a car is insane, IMO.

If you like cars, great. But buying one to impress others is something I have never understood.

quote:

Originally posted by elk88101:
ED
I will sell my BB to you one of a kind 450 3 1/4 NE for 30K
Larry

Drop the price it's already been 'hookerized'!

Larry,

With the curb feelers, and ivory inlays and white line spacers man that would be a deal!

Ed

Thanks for the input from everyone… (the PMs and phone calls too.)

There would be no loss of or lowering of HEYM quality on this model in question, as it would be built by the same craftsmen that build the all of the other doubles.

> Same barrel construction, regulation and accuracy guarantee
> Same “English” style stock shape with cheekpiece and shadow line.
> Same hand-rubbed oil stock finish and checkering pattern, etc…

The only difference (reduction) is in man-hours, parts and production costs.

If a rifle can be built for less by excluding the ejectors, then it makes sense that it should sell for less, and the same is true with the intercepting sears, articulated front trigger, etc…

I agree that it would have to be distinguished from the “PH” grade… what would you want to call it?

"Standard" or "Basic" are the first words that pop into my mind.

id be down for 1 in 577 if it could be had in a base one of these base guns or maybe a 500 you could even call it the ph base model or working mans rifle or jager rifle ie.. hunter rifle

What is the German word for hunter? "Jager"?

Yes, Jager.

Properly written it is Jäger, or Jaeger depending if umlaut is used (masculine & plural forms); Jägerin (feminine).

Should sell well, although initially I shared Biebs' concerns re brand cannibalization. Some outward changes to allow it to be easily differentiated from the PH, etc would be smart.

While at it, the cocking indicators could also be deleted? That would be a pretty stripped down rifle.

New-Guy, count me in with Jager as well! I would certainly be interested in one of them!

................................

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I did buy a rifle without those features; a Krieghoff. Why can't I also have a Heym with the same features for the same 10K? It would still be Heym brand and quality. Same theory; after they deleted all the engraving; it is still a Heym underneath. What if you went the other way and gold plated it? Still a Heym underneath. Oh, I prefer extractors even to free ejectors.

+1 Chris, a Heym with extractors, minimal engraving, and no intercepting sears at around $10,000-$12,000 would be a great addition to the lineup. The guns built on the smaller frame like the .375 flanged and 450/400 at around $10,000 with the bigger guns like the .470 and .500 at around $12,000. Barrel length and length of pull should not add to the cost.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I did buy a rifle without those features; a Krieghoff. Why can't I also have a Heym with the same features for the same 10K? It would still be Heym brand and quality. Same theory; after they deleted all the engraving; it is still a Heym underneath. What if you went the other way and gold plated it? Still a Heym underneath. Oh, I prefer extractors even to free ejectors.

+1 Chris, a Heym with extractors, minimal engraving, and no intercepting sears at around $10,000-$12,000 would be a great addition to the lineup. The guns built on the smaller frame like the .375 flanged and 450/400 at around $10,000 with the bigger guns like the .470 and .500 at around $12,000. Barrel length and length of pull should not add to the cost.

450/400 is on the same frame as 470, and 500....

So, there clearly looks to be interest. I'd say that there are a few hundred thousand dollars lined up for orders. I'd be in that line. We look forward to any word from Heym as to if this basic version would indeed be offered.

Include the intercepting sears and the choice of barrel length (most commercial doubles' barrels are too short IMO) and lose the rest. That would bring it in at $14k.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Include the intercepting sears and the choice of barrel length (most commercial doubles' barrels are too short IMO) and lose the rest. That would bring it in at $14k.

Lavaca, what do you base the opinion of the newer double barrels are too short?
.................................
Are they too short balisticlly, or do you think it is a ballance thing, or both?

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Include the intercepting sears and the choice of barrel length (most commercial doubles' barrels are too short IMO) and lose the rest. That would bring it in at $14k.

Lavaca, what do you base the opinion of the newer double barrels are too short?
.................................
Are they too short balisticlly, or do you think it is a ballance thing, or both?

The VC I just ordered has 24" barrels. Why would that bee too short? Short makes for a handy, easy handling rifle. My Merkel also has 24" barrels. I get 2100fps with the 570gr CEB BBW#13's so I fail to see an issue with the barrel length and I don't remember a significant number of newer doubles with barrels shorter than 24".

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
I agree that it would have to be distinguished from the “PH” grade… what would you want to call it?

Heym with extractors, no articulated front trigger, no intercepting sears, and standard barrel length...I thought that was called a Merkel.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
Include the intercepting sears and the choice of barrel length (most commercial doubles' barrels are too short IMO) and lose the rest. That would bring it in at $14k.

Lavaca, what do you base the opinion of the newer double barrels are too short?
.................................
Are they too short balisticlly, or do you think it is a ballance thing, or both?

The VC I just ordered has 24" barrels. Why would that bee too short? Short makes for a handy, easy handling rifle. My Merkel also has 24" barrels. I get 2100fps with the 570gr CEB BBW#13's so I fail to see an issue with the barrel length and I don't remember a significant number of newer doubles with barrels shorter than 24".

Todd, I think there is a continuant opinion that if a double rifle with less than 26 inch barrels is not of proper length. This is a throw-back opinion to the days of black powder where long barrels were needed to burn the black powder needed to get enough velocity to do the job at hand. This idea held over to the early smokeless powders which were less than efficient and also needed long barrels. We see this idea today very prevalent in the shotgun users, especially among goose hunters some with 36 inch barrels. They believe this gives them longer killing range, but it doesn't. In fact it henders range and pattern tightness. Modern shotgun ammo will get all the velocity it is capable of in 20 inches of barrel.

Modern shotgun ammo is much better designed , and the use of shot-cups, and modern powders the long barrels actually slow the shot string down. Also chokes are not needed in the very tight full choke anymore because the modern ammo get all the velocity it can get in no more than 22 inch barrels, and the pattern is held together from a looser choke by the shot-cup, and the discarding of the old over shot wad.

The same goes for the 24 inch barrels on the newer double rifles, because of of better balanced powders for the older NE rounds.

The other thing that holds the opinion that long barrels are better is because of the opinion that a double rifle balances better with long barrels. This non-sense, because a double rifle can be balanced just as well as long as 1/3rd of the total weight of the rifle is placed between the hands and the rifle fits the shooter.

I have older doubles that have 26 and 28 inch barrels and they balance ver well but I also have some with 24 inch barrels that balance just as well, and the velocity is up to par as well.
My reason for asking the question is I like to hear why certain opinions regarding fire arms seem to persist over time, nothing more. Simple curiosity on my part.

..................................................................................

Mac, agreed. I asked the question because I see things stated from time to time that don't appear to hold water, IMO. I usually try to get the person to respond with whatever logic led them to that position. Often, there is no response because there is no logic behind the statement. Not saying that is Lavaca's situation but ...

In any event, my logic for the 24" barrels are as stated. I get the velocity standard for the caliber, the rifle balances well, and the shortness provides for a great handling weapon for taking into the thick stuff. It works for me.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
I agree that it would have to be distinguished from the “PH” grade… what would you want to call it?

Heym with extractors, no articulated front trigger, no intercepting sears, and standard barrel length...I thought that was called a Merkel.

Todd,

Like you I like short barrels but both my Searcy and Heym (being built) were ordered with 26's because having the front sight a little further out makes it easier for old eyes to pick it up. When comparing my Searcy to my Chapuis (23.5 barrels) I can see a difference in the clarity of the front sight when not wearing my glasses. It is not a huge difference, but a difference none the less. If I were a contact lense wearer would most likely only own 23.5 - 24 in barrels on my doubles.

Todd and Mac:

Maybe this is a dumb question but don't the longer barrels allow you to get more velocity with less powder and hence less pressure? Wouldn't that make sense? The .470 NE is a perfect example. Hornady ammo is loaded to deliver 2150 fps from a 23.5-24 inch barrel. It wouldn't work in my gun which was regulated with WR ammo. I doubt that Kynoch ammo would give you much over 2000 fps for the shorter barrel. Thus, the Hornady ammo must deliveer higher pressure as well. Is that wrong?

Dave,

Logically this would make sense. I don't know of a free lunch anywhere. It would seem to me that increased velocity would come at the expense of increased pressure. But in reality, I don't know that is always the case. I think there is some allowance for reduced friction such as is seen with the bore rider designs (ie CEB). Michael and Sam would be better sources for answers to those questions.

For me, I just like the handiness of a short weapon and if it produces the design velocity within the design pressures, I'm good to go with it. I've only purchases 1 box of factory ammo for my 500. 10 lion loads back when I first got the rifle and got tired of waiting for my dies to show up! That being said, I'm unfamiliar with the ballistics of Hornady or Kynoch factory loads.

I have heard that the Kynoch is mild as many prefer it in their vintage doubles but I just don't have experience with the old guns. I don't think I would shoot the DGS in an old gun however due to the high barrel strain numbers.

Chris, I think this would be a good idea for Heym to pursue.

Merkel quality in no way compares favorably to a Heym so that comparison is flawed. And reaching the $14k point takes it out of the realm of a "less expensive" Heym that you were shooting for in the first place. TwelveK is the absolute max for that market and Ten would be better. If you can spend 14, you won't cringe at 16, which is the PH price, so there is no benefit in that price point. We have done the market research in this thread; I think 14k would be a deal killer. It would for me. Got to be as far under 12 as possible. My financial gut tells me that.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Merkel quality in no way compares favorably to a Heym so that comparison is flawed. And reaching the $14k point takes it out of the realm of a "less expensive" Heym that you were shooting for in the first place. TwelveK is the absolute max for that market and Ten would be better. If you can spend 14, you won't cringe at 16, which is the PH price, so there is no benefit in that price point. We have done the market research in this thread; I think 14k would be a deal killer. It would for me. Got to be as far under 12 as possible. My financial gut tells me that.

Well, actually the Heym PH price is not $16K. It's $17K. It all adds up. Just like my comments about the VC, if we are to compare, let's compare the actual numbers, not just a wag here or there with the unfavorable items being quoted high and the favorable items being quoted low.

I don't see why there wouldn't be a market for different levels from this basic model and have the ability to add the items at will such as the intercepting sears. It seems to me that the more options available, the more interest would be generated.

Maybe I'll be the first to place an order. Let's see, I want the new new plain-Jane model, but I can't live with plain wood, so I'll upgrade that. Then, I think intercepting sears are a good safety feature, so I'll opt for them as well. Might as well do the bushed strikers too while you're in there. And since it will be in a Dangerous Game caliber, I might as well add the ejectors to speed up reloading. And lastly, the bare steel on the action looks a bit K-Mart, so I think I'll have some scroll done there. I'm all set. What's that you say Chris? I just ordered a Heym Safari? Well then, I guess that's what I want! :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Todd and Mac:

Maybe this is a dumb question but don't the longer barrels allow you to get more velocity with less powder and hence less pressure? Wouldn't that make sense? The .470 NE is a perfect example. Hornady ammo is loaded to deliver 2150 fps from a 23.5-24 inch barrel. It wouldn't work in my gun which was regulated with WR ammo. I doubt that Kynoch ammo would give you much over 2000 fps for the shorter barrel. Thus, the Hornady ammo must deliveer higher pressure as well. Is that wrong?

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Dave,

Logically this would make sense. I don't know of a free lunch anywhere. It would seem to me that increased velocity would come at the expense of increased pressure. But in reality, I don't know that is always the case. I think there is some allowance for reduced friction such as is seen with the bore rider designs (ie CEB). Michael and Sam would be better sources for answers to those questions.

For me, I just like the handiness of a short weapon and if it produces the design velocity within the design pressures, I'm good to go with it. I've only purchases 1 box of factory ammo for my 500. 10 lion loads back when I first got the rifle and got tired of waiting for my dies to show up! That being said, I'm unfamiliar with the ballistics of Hornady or Kynoch factory loads.

I have heard that the Kynoch is mild as many prefer it in their vintage doubles but I just don't have experience with the old guns. I don't think I would shoot the DGS in an old gun however due to the high barrel strain numbers.

Two inches! that's 25 FPS per inch. 50 fps less with normal bullets and the same load with a bore-rider will get that back without raising pressures over bullets like Woodlieghs because of less friction noted by Todd. Tell me the animal I can expect to encounter that can distinguish between 2150 and 2100 fps from a 470NE with 24 inch barrels!

What I'm getting at is, one doesn't need more velocity than it takes to shoot to regulation, and 50 fps, or even 100 fps is not is deal breaker.
I like the idea of a bare-bones Heym!
.......................................

I'd order one in .450 3 1/4, if it had 26" barrels.

quote:

Originally posted by Frank Beller:
I'd order one in .450 3 1/4, if it had 26" barrels.

Frank the barrels would likely be 26 inch because that is the finished length of Heym barrel blanks.

.....................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by Frank Beller:
I'd order one in .450 3 1/4, if it had 26" barrels.

Get in line, I believe I made the first order a long time ago.

Xan you do side plates? How much extra would that cost?

After rethinking this for a couple of days decided I would most likely not buy a no frills version. The extra features such as the articulating trigger, cocking indicators, intercepting sears, ejectors, etc are what made me decide on the Heym in the first place.
Even before purchasing my first Chapuis I always viewed the Heym as the cream of the crop and would hate to see that view be cheapened.
Just my $.02's worth, your opinion will surely be different.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Merkel quality in no way compares favorably to a Heym so that comparison is flawed.

If you believe that...I have some nice flood plain land for sale and the toxic waste buried under it is of no consequence as the flood water washes it off weekly.

And you can buy one for $10k or less.

I would like an articulated front trigger, ejectors, and intercepting sears (although I have NO reason to believe I need them other than written words). With out those features...I would not trade my shoe-lump Merkel rifle for a Heym. I believe the Merkel may be better...certainly a tried and true action and they are very accurate.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
After rethinking this for a couple of days decided I would most likely not buy a no frills version. The extra features such as the articulating trigger, cocking indicators, intercepting sears, ejectors, etc are what made me decide on the Heym in the first place.
Even before purchasing my first Chapuis I always viewed the Heym as the cream of the crop and would hate to see that view be cheapened.
Just my $.02's worth, your opinion will surely be different.

My sentiments exactly.

I can’t think of anything wrong with a Heym double rifle. I have owned one Heym double years ago, and have wished many times that I hadn’t traded it. I personally consider the Heyms to be as good as it gets for a double rifle in practical terms.

Having said that I will say that at the same price and same equipment I would choose the Heym over the Merkel double rifles, and I own two Merkel double rifles that are certainly not for sale.

I think a bare bones Heym, at a fair price, would be a value for money spent just like the Merkel double rifles are value for their price point. Either of these two brands will pull your nuts out of the fire if you do your part. I would have no problem going into the weeds with a mad cape buffalo with either of these two rifles. It would make little difference to me which I had in my hands at the time, because I consider either to be as good quality as they need to be for the job at hand.

One other thing I could mention her is that Chris Sells (New-Guy) is directly responsible for some very positive changes in the Heym double rifles over the last few years. Though they have always been very good double rifle , they are better now than they were before, and they were very good to start with. I believe Heym doubles in the different grades ase fairly priced, and will stand beside any other make reliability, and long life! That includes the Britt names as well. I would say if I didn’t already have the two Merkels I wouldn’t hesitate to buy a Heym 88B, or a bare-bones Heym if it were available.

................................................................................

I did not realize that Merkels were built with shoe lumps as well. Not that it matters one whit. I guess I have a question; why are Heyms so much more expensive than Merkels? I still think Heyms are fit a bit better, (still excellent rifles) but several thousand $ still separates them even with the (to me) superfluous features removed. What am I missing? Overhead at the factory? Profit? Just thinking out loud.

Mac:

I have been thinking a lot about this thread in the last several days. Of course, it is always great to have more options so, in that sense, a bare bones Heym would be great. However, there are already a number of very good rifles available at that price point. I love my K-gun. You have a couple of fine Merkels. I just bought a Chapuis. Then there is the very fine Searcy field grade at $10,500. The price point is actually pretty crowded already.

I've only ever had experience with one Heym double, a 500 NE. The workmanship was incredible. When you closed the gun, you could barely see the seam where the barrel met the action. I didn't shoot it much because it was a 500 and I find the recoil of a 500 to be too much for me.

Chris, I think a bare bones Heym would be great for us but I am not sure it would be a great business decision for Heym to jump into an already crowded price point. If Heym is having trouble meeting the demand for their regular guns, then why build a lower priced model. On the other hand, if Heym can meet the demand for the higher end guns and still have excess capacity, then why not pitch a lower price, off-the-rack gun? I think they would sell well but it's ultimately a business decision on your part.