Chris, the first time we talked, I believe you said the total annual production of Heym DRs was 60. Unless they've significantly increased capacity, I would hate to see a low-end model put pressure on production.

A year from now, I don't want to hear "We lose $100 a rifle, but we make it up in volume" !!! :-)

I currently own two Heym 88B double rifles (450/400 and 470). I spent a number of years researching, shooting, and hunting with borrowed doubles and I finally settled on a Heym as the platform offering the best quality/craftsmanship/features/balance for “MY” money. To that end, I am in the process of building a spec sheet with Chris for a third 88B double chambered in .375 Flanged.

Although a very interesting thread, I would not spend MY money on the “Less Expensive” Heym. However, I do feel that the less expensive Heym has market appeal as a no frills double that would clearly compete with other less expensive doubles on the market today.

I guess if Chris/Heym decide this less expensive double rifle offering is strategic to their business and it does not cannibalize their current market… it would be a great way to put another Heym in the field and a smile on a hunter’s face!

BTW: the “Heym Martini” Express rifle is a joy to shoot. Very well balanced, excellent wood, and shoots like a dream.

Heym is fortunate to have someone like Chris Sells listening and communicating ideas back to the craftsmen. Kudos all around.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Chris, the first time we talked, I believe you said the total annual production of Heym DRs was 60. Unless they've significantly increased capacity, I would hate to see a low-end model put pressure on production.

A year from now, I don't want to hear "We lose $100 a rifle, but we make it up in volume" !!! :-)

Biebs makes an excellent point. If Heym is making sixty doubles a year at their regular price point and selling every one, then does it make sense to build an off-the-rack version? Great for us yea but maybe not so great for Heym.

James, welcome to AR. Looks like you're well-equipped with 2 Heym DRs, and another on the way.

To answer the production capacity question, I am assuming Heym can increase production to accommodate another model. If, for some reason they can't increase production, then it would not be a good business decision to sacrifice firm orders for high grade products for a less expensive (and presumably less profitable) one. It is very rare for any firm, these days, to turn down work. Skilled hand labor could be the limiting factor in this case.

Thanks again, guys. The comments are very insightful.

Jon brings up a point regarding production. Yes, HEYM currently builds @ 60 double rifles per year, but to add a few more copies of a base model here or there won’t really stress production, as we’re eliminating some of the most costly and time-consuming options on this model… thus the ability to reduce the price.

I see this base model as having limited production numbers… maybe we should commit to building only 10, and see where it goes from there?

Does it makes sense to limit the caliber offerings too?

The 450NE 3.25” seems to have gotten multiple requests.

Chris, maybe offer one frame size, and the calibers that are offered on that frame. Or maybe make it in a limited range...no 577, or 375 FL...maybe 450 3 1/4", 470, and 500, provided they're on the same frame. Or maybe offer initially only in 470 until demand is known. I would suspect that a sample run of 10 would be spoken for in a day's time just here on AR.

I suppose if you already are making the frames why limit the caliber offerings initially? There will be interest. One in .450-400 for me please.

The 450/400 to 500 is all in the same frame so I would say offer those?

Quote;
The 450NE 3.25” seems to have gotten multiple requests.

375Flanged and 450NE would certainly cover the board quite well.

Chris,
is there an hirarchy of calibers in Heym dbs for the USA.

Is the 450 the Nr. 1??

And what is with the ("German") 500./.416 (from Kr. and WR)..., if there are some users from USA.

Best wishes.

Bockhunter, II

If multiple calibre offerings adds to price, making them in only one or two could make sense. These would normally be the lowest common denominators.

Ironically, limiting production to 10 rifles could eventually make them more collectable.

I think the name suggested by 700 Nitro is perfect for this less expensive Heym,it's logical to have a base model called the Hunter since the next up is the Professional Hunter,I like the idea of a bare bones practical gun from Heym,I would like it to look the part of a hunter,I would not mind having the reciever match the barrel in blue,it would blend in so much better than the french grey,a base model Heym does not mean any quality drop to me,just different features,it"s kinda like buying a car and dressing it up,it makes sense that Heym would try to work for all their would be customer base including the ones that are looking for a more affordable model of the same quality,I think it's a sound idea and I commend Chris for coming up with it

Would be good if they are offered in a left hand stock also. Or one with a staight stock with no cheak piece that could be shot either hand

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I did not realize that Merkels were built with shoe lumps as well. Not that it matters one whit. I guess I have a question; why are Heyms so much more expensive than Merkels? I still think Heyms are fit a bit better, (still excellent rifles) but several thousand $ still separates them even with the (to me) superfluous features removed. What am I missing? Overhead at the factory? Profit? Just thinking out loud.

dpcd , The new Merkels are NOT made on shoe-lump barrels, They changed to mono-block about two years ago when they started offering selective ejectors in the 140 safari rifles.
Actually it is no cheaper to build and fit mono-block barrels than it is to build, and fit shoe-lump barrels. It just looks better without the seam between the barrels and mono-block meet, usually hidden with some sort of roll engraving! That is no necessary as B. Searcy are mono-block barrels but are fitted so well that it almost requires a magnifying glass to spot the connection. There is nothing wrong with mono-block barrels as they are actually stronger than many of the so-called “PROPER” barrel types.
The mono-block system is exactly the same as a bolt action in that the barrels are threaded into an already fitted receiver (the mono-block) and then trimmed off to match the face of the breech end of the mono-block, with head space adjusted by cutting the recess for the rim of the case surface flush with the end of the mono-block’s face against the standing breech. So if you think about it the mono-block requires more fitting than the shoe-lump barrels.

In the final analysis it is a misconception that the mono-block is inferior to shoe-lump in practical terms. Even the dovetailed barrel joining, being the weakest system, have served well for two hundred years without any major problem. IMO, if done properly, any of them are OK. There are far more important features in double rifle design than the way the barrels are joined.

To answer your question about price differential, Heym simply comes with more standard features than Merkel. Standard features the require a lot of hand fitting!

Oh, I am well aware of the monoblock system; having built 6 DRs so far, that way. I did not know that Merkel has gone to monoblocks; I have not seen one made within 2 years. I was certainly not inferring that one system is superior to another. I do believe shoe lumps should be a cheaper way to do it as it requires less work. For no good reason, I like seeing a mechanical connection between barrels and frame. Must not matter to me as I have a Chapuis on order.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Oh, I am well aware of the monoblock system; having built 6 DRs so far, that way. I did not know that Merkel has gone to monoblocks; I have not seen one made within 2 years. I was certainly not inferring that one system is superior to another. I do believe shoe lumps should be a cheaper way to do it as it requires less work. For no good reason, I like seeing a mechanical connection between barrels and frame. Must not matter to me as I have a Chapuis on order.

One question, where these six double rifles built on one piece mono-blocks or cut off and sleeved shotgun barrel sets? If sleeved shotgun barrel butts, how were the shotgun barrels joined origenally?

..................................

I built them, and am in the process of building one now, a 9.3, using shotguns and cut the barrels off and threaded the monoblocks. The ones I use, mostly Baikals, have one piece monoblocks. The first one I built was on a Spanish 16 ga and it was 20 years ago; I don't remember on that one. "How were the shotgun barrels joined?" They were soldered into the monoblocks, but I ream the old barrels out. I posted pictures of the one I am working on now on this forum a couple of weeks ago.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I built them, and am in the process of building one now, a 9.3, using shotguns and cut the barrels off and threaded the monoblocks. The ones I use, mostly Baikals, have one piece monoblocks. The first one I built was on a Spanish 16 ga and it was 20 years ago; I don't remember on that one. "How were the shotgun barrels joined?" They were soldered into the monoblocks, but I ream the old barrels out. I posted pictures of the one I am working on now on this forum a couple of weeks ago.

Yes I saw the one you posted a couple weeks ago! looking good so far.

Baretta has been using mono-block barrels on their shotguns for a very long time, but the barrels were not threaded, or even soldered in the mono-block. The holes in the mono-block, and the diametier if the sleeve end of the barrels were turned to the exact same dia and the surface inside the mono-block, and the surface on the barrels were both left with rough surfaces. The barrels were placed is licquid oxigen, and the mono-block heated. the shrunken barrels were inserted into the heated mono-block, and allowed to come back to room temprature. Once the barrels and the mono-block came to the same temprature the barrels couldn't be pulled from the mono-block. Of course the barrels were soldered together with a middle and muzzle wedge, and the ribs soldered on. This works perfectly for shotguns but I'd have a little worry about that process with rifles.

..........................................

I have shrunk barrels onto G43 receivers and AKs, but they use a retaining pin too. I would not trust that method on a DR that I did myself since my shop is not as sophisticated as Beretta has. Most likely.

hunter model or jager gewehr/hunter rifle ? a 577 in one of these base guns would sell the 470 nitro is cool and will do most anything needed but if you want or need more gun might as well skip the 500 and go right to the 577 its in a league of it owen.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
I think the name suggested by 700 Nitro is perfect for this less expensive Heym,it's logical to have a base model called the Hunter since the next up is the Professional Hunter,I like the idea of a bare bones practical gun from Heym,I would like it to look the part of a hunter,I would not mind having the reciever match the barrel in blue,it would blend in so much better than the french grey,a base model Heym does not mean any quality drop to me,just different features,it"s kinda like buying a car and dressing it up,it makes sense that Heym would try to work for all their would be customer base including the ones that are looking for a more affordable model of the same quality,I think it's a sound idea and I commend Chris for coming up with it

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Chris, the first time we talked, I believe you said the total annual production of Heym DRs was 60. Unless they've significantly increased capacity, I would hate to see a low-end model put pressure on production.

A year from now, I don't want to hear "We lose $100 a rifle, but we make it up in volume" !!! :-)

Biebs makes an excellent point. If Heym is making sixty doubles a year at their regular price point and selling every one, then does it make sense to build an off-the-rack version? Great for us yea but maybe not so great for Heym.

The law of supply and demand will determine what works and does not. I heym tries this.

IIRC, Heym alternates between shoe lumps and monoblocs, which are after all just a development from sleeving. But one buff has suggested even chopper lumps may not prevent a famous brand's rifles coming off face - because they lack a third fastener. If this is true, chopper lumps join the legendary problems of regulating as the emperor's foundation garments.

Once upon a time, there were 10 HEYM 88B "PH" rifles made with mono-block barrels, but none of them were sold in the US.

All SxS HEYM doubles use Shoe-lump barrels.

Chopper lumps are available on SxS at an extra cost.

All of O/U and O/U combination guns use monoblock.

Gidday New Guy. I was one of the Aussies that visited your stand. The show was an absolute hoot, but I must admit, when you showed me the 375 Flanged PH model, I thought it could do with a little "prettying up"
Cheers Malcolm

quote:

Originally posted by new_guy:
Once upon a time, there were 10 HEYM 88B "PH" rifles made with mono-block barrels, but none of them were sold in the US.

That must have been when I got mine because there was some uncertainty as to which it was. For appearance sake, I'm happy it has the shoe-lump.

quote:

Originally posted by malcolm:
Gidday New Guy. I was one of the Aussies that visited your stand. The show was an absolute hoot, but I must admit, when you showed me the 375 Flanged PH model, I thought it could do with a little "prettying up"
Cheers Malcolm

That is what the "Safari" grade is for. The whole idea of the PH is a no frills hard core hunting rifle at a lower cost with all the same mechanics of the "prettier" grades.

At present I am looking into acquiring two guns.
I set my budget at 25,000.00.
I would like to be able to use a scope on one of them, as it will be the gun I will use the most for hunting around here ans it will be chambered
for something that is good for a 300yd shot if necc.
So, my first inquiry was on Chapuis and VC. Vendor said he'd had some issues with the Chapuis on regulation not being all that great.
VC wants 2094.00 & bases & rings, to install & regulate the gun with a customer supplied scope.
With 600mm barrels, 3 leaf sight, scope & hdwe installed, ejectors, it is 11,500 or so.
The other gun would be set up w/o the scope mounting. That is for the Azur XA model. The PH starts around the 12,500 mark, scope mounting is still extra if a person wants that.
So, I am now checking out the Krieghoff to see where it comes in at. I suspect it'll be about the same as the XA, maybe over the 12 mark.
As has been noted, Searcy would come in around the same ballpark, at 13,1 or so.
I, at present, wonder a bit at some of these companies, what is the difference that makes the next step in price other than bling?
Some will chamber rimless cartridges as an option, like 30-06 or 300Winmag, and yet won't chamber a classic like a 300H&H.
I'd be interested to see how much cost/benefit there is to expanding the cartridge offerings to include some more chamberings in a well built and regulated gun, on a single version action.

209jones:

In the smaller caliber gun capable of a 300 yard shot, I would take a hard look at the Blaser S2. It is chambered in all kinds of calibers, both rimmed and rimless, including the 270 Winchester, 8X57JRS, and 9,3X74R. They are very accurate and Blasers have simply the best built-in scope mounts on the market, the Blaser saddle mount. It is well within your budgeted amount and will leave you with plenty of money to spare for your larger caliber double.

quote:

the 470 nitro is cool and will do most anything needed but if you want or need more gun might as well skip the 500 and go right to the 577 its in a league of it own.

I don't know that I'd make the jump from 470 to 577 appear as seamless as you indicate. A 577 will weigh 3-4 lbs more than a 470, and recoil will be go from about 54 ft/lbs to 92...approaching double. This is with an 11 lb 470 and a 13 lb 577, so the differences could be greater.

I love the 577, have owned 2, and am not bothered by the recoil. But that being said, I find the 500 NE in a DR is a much better caliber for a hunter, in terms of balancing power, recoil, and bullet weight.

To 209:

- To use an double rifle at 300 yards and with an scope is possible, but in German "Nicht im Sinne des Herrn Erfinders... :-)
So please use an bold action rifle at thus distance.
Please have an look at at the Heym 21 and 30 models, exspacali the Precision-Line.
They are great for that.

A double, i. m. o. is for an use at CQB, at 5 to 50 Meters. In the normal way, with iron sights, okay, with an light scope 100 yards are okay, or 150...
But 300...,

Having purchased a Heym PH with all the bells & whistles -- which I happen to really like -- I'd hate to see the brand dumbed down.

I'd especially hate to see the market value ruined for all of us who paid "full price" - and in doing so funded the reputation Heym currently enjoys.

**Caveat: I purchased my Heym back when the going rate was $14K, so in a sense I'm having my cake and eating it too... :grin:

quote:

Originally posted by Ing. S. Bader:
To 209:

- To use an double rifle at 300 yards and with an scope is possible, but in German "Nicht im Sinne des Herrn Erfinders... :-)
So please use an bold action rifle at thus distance.
Please have an look at at the Heym 21 and 30 models, exspacali the Precision-Line.
They are great for that.

A double, i. m. o. is for an use at CQB, at 5 to 50 Meters. In the normal way, with iron sights, okay, with an light scope 100 yards are okay, or 150...
But 300...,

Such things didn't bother Elmer Keith. IIRC he said his 476 WR put the impact from both barrels under a silver dollar at 500 yards. This is indeed amazing as I would doubt you could get anything to shoot that close.

quote:

he said his 476 WR put the impact from both barrels under a silver dollar at 500 yards

YES, and I beleive in witches.
:-)

quote:

Originally posted by Ing. S. Bader:
To 209:

- To use an double rifle at 300 yards and with an scope is possible, but in German "Nicht im Sinne des Herrn Erfinders... :-)
So please use an bold action rifle at thus distance.
Please have an look at at the Heym 21 and 30 models, exspacali the Precision-Line.
They are great for that.

A double, i. m. o. is for an use at CQB, at 5 to 50 Meters. In the normal way, with iron sights, okay, with an light scope 100 yards are okay, or 150...
But 300...,

Mr. Bader with a properly regulated double rifle, especially the smaller chamberings like 9.3X74R with proper flit-up iron sights it is no trick at all to get hunting accuracy at 200 yds with a double rifle. Hunting accuracy means a groups small enough to hit the kill zone on standing still big game.

Certainly it may be easier with a scope sight, no matter what type of rifle you use, but there is no legitimate reason to pass a shot on a large animal simply because all you have is a iron sighted double rifle, if you know your rifle!
In my experience I've had no problem taking Muledeer at 200 yds with a double rifle with my 9.3X74R Merkel double rifle with only factory iron sight! I haven't shot a head of game in years with a scoped bolt rifle!

.............................................................................

Just picking up on the comments re long range accuracy of a double - at long range do you know that, say, the right barrel is the one that remains closest to the point of aim and thus you always use that.

Will one day get a double - so far have a half double - well a combination gun!

I guess I could have left the longer shot out of the picture,but, it's there now.It is not something I'd do as a habit, and I'd be very famliar with whether that gun and I can do it or not, before trying it in a hunting situation.
Would I choose a Heym if it was in the 10-13,000 range, don't know, but, I'd sure look at it.
Maybe there is room in that market for them, guess they have to decide if they want to be part of it or not.

quote:

Originally posted by Heym SR20:
Just picking up on the comments re long range accuracy of a double - at long range do you know that, say, the right barrel is the one that remains closest to the point of aim and thus you always use that.

Will one day get a double - so far have a half double - well a combination gun!

Heym SR20, If a double rifle is regulatd properly, and the loads you are shooting are proper for that regulation the sight setting for either barrel is the same,Half way between the centers of each barrel's individule four shot group. Having said that, certainly one barrel will group tighter than the other, so for extreme distant shots that barrel is the one you need to fire first, followed close behind with the other barrel with the same sight setting.

If the rifle is NOT regulated properly all bets are off at any range past the 10 yard mark.

I'd like to see a 450/400 built on a smaller frame by someone.

It seems now that the 9.3x74 is built on one frame and all others from 450/400 to .500 are built on another much larger one.

This is perhaps one reason why the 9.3x74s are a lot less expensive. It also makes the 450/400s weigh about 11 pounds, which I regard as way too heavy for a rifle of that caliber.

Indy, IIRC my Heym .450/.400 only weighs about 10lb and I hear of and have seen others that only go about 9.5.