quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Tommyhawk:
There is a reason for the 'rumor' that Rigby's uses Merkle shotguns to build their rifles. It's because it's true! I quote from the Nov/Dec '09 issue of SCI magazine. Page 153. Helsley writes..."It's German,for God's sake. And, it's a shotgun action." Do you think Helsley made this up out of the blue? They also use shotgun barrels as mono-blocs as was clearly pointed out in the "John Rigby re-opening for business" thread by 400NE.

Macs reply: "What I think is,YES! I think it is "made up" but I'm sure Helsley thinks that it is true,as you seemingly do as well, but my information says otherwise!"


***If they are rifle actions, then why did they not make any rifles on this action until several yrs. AFTER Rigby started using them to build double rifles? Remember when the new Merkel SxS double rifles first came out? Why did the Merkels shoot 'off the face' after just a couple of boxes if they were originally designed as rifles? They have corrected that problem now.

quote:

and they use a rifle type bolster on the side of the bar to strengthen the juncture between the bar and the standing breech because the side walls are thin. These ARE shotgun actions.

Macs reply: " The bolsters are on all side-by-side Merkel actions, and has been since, I suspect long before you were born. The actions are almost exact copies of the Anson & Deeley actions of England, but made from stronger steel than most of the older action from the UK. "


***I noticed that you didn't say anything about how thin the walls are in comparison to your Westley Richards rifle action.

quote:

They are castings. And, they are strong. They are Not rifle actions. A bit of research shows that Miller/Rigby's use of these shotguns for rifles pre-dates Merkle using the same frame for double rifles.

Macs reply: "........ and that frame is the 20ga size action. A 12 ga size action is not needed till you get to the 577NE. The 20 ga size is fine for up to 500NE. "


***I agree with you about the frame sizes. BUT, Mr. Miller seems to disagree. It seems that he uses mostly 12 ga. for .470 class rifles.


MacD37: " Sir in today's case, the big difference between the shotgun action and rifle action is the heat treating of the steel. This is not the case with Merkel, however.Merkel actions are treated for pressures much higher than any shotgun would require. "


***I find this first sentence a bit illogical. The biggest difference between rifle actions and shotgun actions is size and weight. Not heat treating. Shotguns have light weight barrels. So, the actions are also made light. That way they will balance and handle well. Rifle actions are made heavy so they can handle the higher cartridge pressure, AND for balance, AND for recoil. When you convert shotguns to rifles they don't balance and handle well. They are very muzzle heavy. This is why I have stated that IMO Rigby doubles handle like a cement truck! Sorry, didn't mean to disparage cement trucks. Using the 20 ga. frame as Merkel does helps to mitigate some of it.

quote:

You sir, seem to be a knowledgeable fellow. I've read quite a number of your posts. This only shows how many in the public have been misled.

Macs reply: " I'm sorry you feel that way, and if I have misled anyone it was not intentional, I assure you. I can tell you for sure if your post above is the be totally taken as fact in all respects it is a real toss-up as to which, of us, is the leading them down the yellow brick road here!"


***Sorry. It didn't come out the way I meant it.



MacD37: " I'm not saying that I never make mistakes, I do, but unlike some here I don't claim to be an expert on anything, and infallible. I can guarantee you, if Miller had been chopping off shotgun barrels, and screwing in rifle barrels I would have heard from someplace more reliable that MAGAZINE! Some of the crap you read in magazines, regarding double rifles, is almost funny it is so ill-conceived.

quote:

Originally posted by Tommyhawk:
***As I said in my last post...Go back and read the post under "John Rigby re-opening for business" Look on the last page (9) for the post by 400 NE. He explains to anyone who cares to read it that Miller IS chopping off shotgun barrels and sleeving them to rifles...and proves it! In this case from a 20 ga. Look at the picture closely. You will see a line across the left barrel at the front of the barrel flat. That is where the shoulder of the rifle barrel stops against the mono-block made out of the shotgun barrel set. Look at the breech end of that same barrel. See a circular line in the middle of outside barrel wall? That is the joint between the original shotgun barrel on the outside and the new rifle barrel on the inside.

....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:


Nobody said the Cal Rigby is not a Mono-block barrel set, but the mono-block is not made from
shotgun barrels. The seam around the barrels only means the barrels set is a mono-block set, nothing more.
The actions are bought from Merkel, and mono'blocks are made in house in Cal. It is simply silly to think Miller is going to pay $9K for a Merkel double barrel shotgun and chop the barrels off to make the mono-block, when he can buy the action complete in the white for less than $1500. The Mono-block is made in house from a solid piece of steel on CNC machines, and hand fitted to the merkel action. There is no question the actions are Merkel, but the Mono-block,are California made, and the barrels are Pac-nor.

I don't think this conversation needs to go fartehr, because we have hit a dam in the stream that seems to be higher than we can protage! I suppose we will simply have to agree to disagree!

...............Good hunting!

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Craig is such a gentleman...


Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Tommyhawk:
*** Do you think that Rigby sends it's rifles to Germany for Proofing? If not, then please explain to us how those German Proof marks got onto the barrel flats of a .500 NE Calif. Rigby. Just because someone owns a CNC doesn't mean they use it. I just looked to see what a Merkel boxlock, 20 ga., ejector shotgun sells for. Cabelas has one listed at $3000. retail. Rigby's would buy at wholesale and get the barrels and forend with the ejector mechanism. Not just the action. Everything would be fitted and functional. A small price to pay for parts on a $35,000. double rifle.
I am often surprised by people's inability or unwillingness to see the truth when it is staring them in the face!!! Maybe it's just like Boddington's unwillingness to answer whether or not Miller told him he was in the Marines. They are embarrassed at having been hood-winked.

....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982

Hands of Old Elmer Keith

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Nobody said the Cal Rigby is not a Mono-block barrel set, but the mono-block is not made from
shotgun barrels. The seam around the barrels only means the barrels set is a mono-block set, nothing more.

quote:

Rigby's would buy at wholesale and get the barrels and forend with the ejector mechanism. Not just the action.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:

As others say these are "cut and sleeve" jobs.

Nothing wrong with a "reverse" monobloc (which is what this "cut and sleeve" system is) as it is how Beretta make most if not all their O/U shot guns and how respected French firms like Manufrance always produced their S/B/S guns.

quote:

When you cut Merkel shotgun barrels off just forward of the lumps, you don't end up with a monobloc.
The Merkels are I believe a shoe lump system, meaning that the lumps are brazed to the barrels.
When you cut the barrels off, your "monobloc" is two pieces not one.

quote:

Originally posted by Martin Godio:
Hi,
Any picture of the shotgun proofmarks on California Rigby rifles?

Thanks
Martin

quote:

An excerpt from Mr. Miller's letter to the editor in the December 2010 Guns & Ammo magazine:

"I think it is safe to say that I have more experience with the .300 H&H than anyone. I have burned out dozens of barrels and fired about 300,000 rounds of .300 H&H over the last 55 years. In addition, my company has made a great number of rifles in that caliber..."

Interesting statements.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/...ifle/146722612017963

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Max Trauma,

Welcome to AR, but be advised that groveling and supplication are viewed with disdain on this sight, even when CB is the recipient of same.

quote:

Originally posted by John Frederick:
So far in this arguement we have a "Mintyman" and a "Celticman". next, no doubt, their cousin Batman will turn up.