I read a lot in here but haven’t posted much. I had to sell my big bore rifles over the past few years to pay unexpected bills. I’ll be 70 in 2020 and this will probably be my last rifle. I’ll never hunt Africa unless I win the lottery. I may get to hunt elk, moose and maybe bears. But my main use will be deer and hog hunting.

However I also enjoy shooting the big guns. Also enjoy reloading for them. I have owned and shot a 375 H&H in a Ruger #1, a Model 70 in 458, also 458 in a #1, a 458 Lott in a #1 and a new Ruger guide gun in 416 Ruger. The recoil hasn’t been a problem since I usually wear a PAST pad. Plus as we all know you never notice recoil when shooting game.

I could buy a CZ bolt action or a model 70. However, I’ve always wanted a double rifle and I’m not getting any younger. So, I’ve decided on a double.

I don’t want to start a brand argument, but my budget will probably be 10,000 and hopefully less. I don’t have the bucks for the high dollar guns. Lately I’ve done a lot of research on here and I think that a used Merkel or a current production Sabatti Big 5 may be my best bet. Although I see other brands in my price range. Suggestions as to a brand will be appreciated.

What I’ve noticed on GB is that there’s a lot of doubles on there new and used, but almost all of them aren’t getting any bids. I did read here that the double rifle market is soft, but I didn’t know it was that soft.

I have pretty much decided on the 450/400 or the 450 NE. I don’t have long shots in the woods where I hunt so I wouldn’t feel handicapped with either caliber. I have also thought a lot about the 9.3 x 74 R. There seems to be a lot of those on the market.

Well there you have it. Any suggestions and opinions will be welcome.

Well seems to me like your ideal North American DR caliber for deer and hogs would be 9.3x74 or .375 Flanged Magnum.....unless you just WANT the truly fine, but overpowered for Elk, .450/.400 3”. You would have to handload, and experiment for adequate regulation, lighter bullets in a .400 or .450 for deer/hogs
9.3x74 will do it all in a slightly lighter, slimmer package.

I have 9.3x74 Sabatti double as my “beater” Elk and Black bear rifle. For my .400 on up, it is mostly for the fun of it, and I enjoy them all......

Great choice of 450/400. You will have fun and enjoy the rifle as the recoil is easy to manage and you will want to shoot more.

The 450, 470 etc are a BIG step up for me. I wish I had a 450/400 and not my 470 NE.

For your uses I’d strongly urge you to get a 9.3. More than enough power and the overall package is smaller, lighter, and easier to manage. I’d much prefer a 7-8lb piece over the 9.25-11 pounds of the bigger bores.

Chapuis; worth a look. Champlin Arms stands by these without hesitation per their advertising, several listed on GI in your price range. I know nothing about the rifles themselves.

The 9.3 rifles are a lot lighter. If you have never carried a double rifle for a few miles, you may not appreciate the benefit of a rifle that is 2 or 3 lb lighter. Typical 9.3 is 9lb although I have seen them as light as 7lbs. Typical 450 is 12lbs. Merkels tend to be heavy for caliber.

Also, because they can be built on an action that is often also used for 20ga shotguns and thus produced in higher numbers, the 9.3 is much cheaper, usually 60% of the heavier caliber rifle all other things being equal.

Given that you are not going to be stopping any charges, I would vote strongly for the 9.3x74R. Most of these are made on the Continent. If you want English, the 400/360, the 375 2 1/2", or the 375 Flanged are in the same class and are a tad less spendy than the more powerful rifles. However anything English is going to cost quite a bit more than the equivalent French, Belgian, Austrian, German or Italian rifle.

The Sabatti is tempting as they are the cheapest option out there, but beware the regulation issues. These rifles were built with brazed barrels and many of them were poorly regulated. Some were bodged by grinding the muzzles to attempt to rectify regulation problems. It's rather hard to sell a used Sabatti even if not bodged. Pay a little more to get a properly regulated rifle.

At the other end of the spectrum, the Heym is considered the Rolls Royce of current production rifles. Like a Rolex, these keep their value and are easy to sell.

If you are only hunting in NA, or for non DG, then your choice is easy; get a 9.3 Chapuis. They are the most common and easy to get, and well within your budget. I have 3 9.3s now; and my latest Chapuis has user adjustable barrels, which I did not need to use because it shoots into one inch at 50, as it came.
Call Ken Busch and he will sell you one.
If you want to shoot some DRs, including 500 NE, come on over and we will do it.

Of course if you really want a 450-400, that is good too; realize that those are a quantum leap in power, and cost and weight. Recoil is not terrible, But they do work well on everything.

I'm going to pitch in for recommending the 9.3x74R as well. It will easily handle the hunting you describe and more.

I purchased a Chapuis UGEX from Ken several years ago. It's a great little rifle. I say little but it's really just a tad shy in terms of power than the 375 H&H. In fact, I took a male lion with it in Zim back in 2012. It was devastating on that cat.

Unless something has changed, I think you'll find the Chapuis UGEX in this caliber to be WELL UNDER your $10K budget. In fact, I think I paid less than 1/2 of that back around 2011 or so.

Chapuis makes a hell of a rifle in 9,3x74R. The rifle has one issue and that is the comb is high. Works ok for 10 rounds or so then your cheek feels the pain. However, this high comb can be a plus if you decide to scope the rifle. I killed a couple of Alaskan moose with mine before selling it after moving out of Alaska.

Chapuis also makes the rifle in 30 Blaser which is essentially the equal of a rimmed 30-06. Plenty of power for any animal in the USA. Easy to reload for. Havent killed anything with it yet as my interests in doubles dropped dramatically since living in the lower 48. If you buy a Chapuis plan on having a smith work on the triggers.

Also own a 450/400 and a 450 NE. Wouldn't recommend either as a first double unless Africa was in your sights. The 375 flanged is an intriguing cartridge and deserves to be investigated.

If you find yourself around east Tennessee feel free to look me up and you can shoot all of them to compare recoil. We have our own range complete with gongs in the back yard so it makes it easy

Good luck.

True about Chapuis; you have to scope them; otherwise the stock will slap you harder than George Forman. Not the grill.

I kind of glean from the OP that you might want to channel the old British concept of double rifles. Therefore, I would be inclined to the .450/.400 just because it was the most popular DG rifle before the 375 H&H magnum. Actual British rifles are likely to be expensive and Continental concepts like the older Heyms and Champuis don't look the part, so I would seek something like a used Merkel or Verney Carron if you can be assured it regulates and has no other issue.

If a .450/.400 weighs 10-pounds-plus, you should find recoil reasonable, at least when standing or shooting at big game. The calibre was Elmer Keith's favorite for big bear and several contributors on the AR Lever-action forum want analogous ballistics for use on elk.

quote:

I have pretty much decided on the 450/400 or the 450 NE. I don’t have long shots in the woods where I hunt so I wouldn’t feel handicapped with either caliber. I have also thought a lot about the 9.3 x 74 R.

If you are a reloader - it matters little which caliber you choose.

If not - the 450-400 and the 9.3 are a bit more available than the 450.

some of the newer DR'stend to be a bit light for caliber.
i prefer them at 8.5-9 #'s for the 9,3, the 400's at 9-10, the 450 at 10 to 11.

With practice most DR's can be loaded with more than one bullet weight that will "regulate".

(450: 350 , 405, 480, 600)
(400: 210, 300, 400)
(9.3: 232, 250, 286, 300)

another thought - the 45-70 guns are fun and cheap to feed (as to factory ammo)

have owned Pedersolis (and Trail Armory) in 8mm, 9,3, 45-70 and 450) Some shot very well

and Baikals in '06 an 45-70 (adjustable regulation)

and don't overlook the Valmet/Tikkas in 375 Win and converted to 375Flanged (as well as, 9.3, '06,243,8mm, etc)

(the smaller the calliber/the faster the caliber: in general: the more difficult to regulate , ie frustrating to load for (280 Ross in particular)

lot's of choices out there
get one that fits well, one you like, one you can feel comfortable in the price-- and have fun

I might add, do not succumb to any urge to get an O/U; they aren't real double rifles. Just a rifle that happens to have two barrels. Not the same thing, at all.

I have two nondoubles DPCD. Both have O/U barrels in 9.3X74. They shoot well and 9.3 kills well. I would like a SXS and it would be my choice to go for 450-400 3". Be Well, Packy.

This Merkel 500 is $8500.

Drop what you are doing and send him a check.

https://www.gunsinternational....cfm?gun_id=101329060

I have bought multiple rifles from him, and he is good to go.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I might add, do not succumb to any urge to get an O/U; they aren't real double rifles. Just a rifle that happens to have two barrels. Not the same thing, at all.

THIS!!!

Chapuis offers 6 stock styles dimensioned to order ...

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I might add, do not succumb to any urge to get an O/U; they aren't real double rifles. Just a rifle that happens to have two barrels. Not the same thing, at all.

I have the O/U's for fun and non-DG hunting.
for DG sxs only , for me

Thanks so much guys! After thinking it through and reading the suggestions given, I think I’ll go with the 9.3. It’ll take me a while to save the money up but I’ll post back when I make my purchase. Thanks again, I’ve learned a lot here!

quote:

Originally posted by tatwell:
Thanks so much guys! After thinking it through and reading the suggestions given, I think I’ll go with the 9.3. It’ll take me a while to save the money up but I’ll post back when I make my purchase. Thanks again, I’ve learned a lot here!

Tatwell, I think you have made a very good choice! I have two doubles chambered for 9.3X74, one side by side, and one over under, and for North America, that chambering makes perfect sense, and it is fine for Africa as well, on plains game, but will take dangerous game as well, where legal, and can't be beat for the leopard with a good scope mounted. My s/s has irons, and the over under has both irons, and scope. Ammo is easy to get, but is easy to hand load once the regulating load is found.

Congratulations you will be the next member of DRSS!
…….........…...……...... Mac

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I might add, do not succumb to any urge to get an O/U; they aren't real double rifles. Just a rifle that happens to have two barrels. Not the same thing, at all.

THIS!!!

It's biblical, gentlemen. If the Good Lord wanted us to shoot over and unders He, in all His Majesty, would have created us with one eye over the other.
Side by side eyes, side by side rifles and shotguns! It's as simple as that!
Cal

I just saw this thread and see that you have already settled on a fine double rifle caliber, the 9.3x74R. Now, let me put in a pitch for Tikka. My rifle is a 512SD and I love it! see this:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...661012121#2661012121

There are several old threads on this rifle. Take a look and see what you think. I sold my M.K. Owen in 450 x 3 1/4, my Kreighoff in 500/416 and my Blaser in 500NE, but kept the Tikka!
Just some food for thought! The Tikka is easy to regulate as well!
Peter

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
I just saw this thread and see that you have already settled on a fine double rifle caliber, the 9.3x74R. Now, let me put in a pitch for Tikka. My rifle is a 512SD and I love it! see this:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...661012121#2661012121

There are several old threads on this rifle. Take a look and see what you think. I sold my M.K. Owen in 450 x 3 1/4, my Kreighoff in 500/416 and my Blaser in 500NE, but kept the Tikka!
Just some food for thought! The Tikka is easy to regulate as well!
Peter

Good Lord! A single trigger O/U?

In a word:


NO!



In a couple of words:

Please NO!!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
I just saw this thread and see that you have already settled on a fine double rifle caliber, the 9.3x74R. Now, let me put in a pitch for Tikka. My rifle is a 512SD and I love it! see this:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...661012121#2661012121

There are several old threads on this rifle. Take a look and see what you think. I sold my M.K. Owen in 450 x 3 1/4, my Kreighoff in 500/416 and my Blaser in 500NE, but kept the Tikka!
Just some food for thought! The Tikka is easy to regulate as well!
Peter

Good Lord! A single trigger O/U?

In a word:


NO!



In a couple of words:

Please NO!!

If there is another double I would buy (I own a Vc 450-400). It will be a light single trigger o/u in 30/06 with a swaro z6 scope for hunting bush pigs in high rock formations in coutada 9 in moz. Only time I have required a super fast second shot.

Blaser has a bb97 but the fixed barrel one is regulated with some German load.

I need to start shopping.

Mike

This thread has officially entered la la land now.

I totally agree; anyone who wants, or think they want, a double rifle, wants a real, traditional side by side. O/Us need their own forum. The single trigger, single stacked barrel proponents (I refuse to call them double rifles) are only confusing the new guy.

mine are all double triggers

So, let's just distinguish between a double rifle and a double barrelled rifle. I do not need a double rifle for non dangerous game.
Peter.

I had two O/U double rifles,just bought my third,I also have three SxS rifles,I like both types of double rifles,I really appreciate all the BS that some of you spout off about O/U's,it helps keep the prices low ,I do prefer double triggers.

Back to the original discussion, I bought a Chapuis 9,3x74 here on the forum for something like $4,000-4,500.

If I was buying a double.


I would look for a k-gun in 450-400.

Mike

for 10k?

Find a pedersoli kodiak (or order one from EU)
for less than half -
9.3
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/828741331

45/70
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/...LE%2C+.45-70+CALIBER

the 45/70 can be chambered and reregualted to 45/120 NITRO (that's my name for loading it to 450ne) a the case is within 1% the same size, and then zero mechincal issues.. and can shot 45/70 in a pinch .. why 45/120 vs 450 ne? that's easy, cases are the same size, but the 45/70 and 45/120 rims are thicker than the 450 ne

The huge advantage of the 412/512/612 system guns (Valmet/Tikka/FinnClassic), apart from their price point, the adjustable regulation, choice of ST or DT, the integral scope rail, and choice of stock style and cast, is the availability of combo and shotgun barrel sets. For what you pay for a Chapuis UGEX, you can have a 3 barrel set that will fit in a compact luggage case. My personal setup is 12/12, 12/6.5x55, and 375JDJ. And the barrels are of the highest quality, Lothar Walther and Marocchi. In fact I have never shot a more accurate DR than my 375JDJ.

Yes they are over/under guns which is not everyone's preference but who ever won a skeet medal shooting a sxs gun?

You are correct Russ! I did not mention that in my post because I did not wish to muddy the waters or make the choice more difficult. My set is:
9.3x74R/9.3x74R
7x57R/12 ga.
12 ga./12 ga.
All in a nice fitted case!
Peter.

Here's where you can start for a Pedersoli in 45/70 or 9,3

https://www.davide-pedersoli.c...-kodiak-mark-iv.html

https://www.gunsinternational....cfm?gun_id=101334114 Holland and Holland for Chapuis money.

Under $9000. Shoots .358 bullets, has all the features, great engraving, well known maker.

https://www.gunsinternational....cfm?gun_id=101329649

.450-400 3 1/4” Osborne. https://www.gunsinternational....cfm?gun_id=101281875