I got a great load for my Heym 500NE from Dirk that regulates exactly like my 570's. If I wrote it down right they are 450gr Woodleighs with 80grs of RL15 and a 1" wad. I think he told me they were appox. 1910 feet per second. How can you calculate muzzle energy, Killing effectiveness, etc. Is this load equivilent to a 450/400? Appreciate any help. The load shoots great and is sweet to shoot.

Thanks,

Larry

quote:

Originally posted by BigBBear:
I got a great load for my Heym 500NE from Dirk that regulates exactly like my 570's. If I wrote it down right they are 450gr Woodleighs with 80grs of RL15 and a 1" wad. I think he told me they were appox. 1910 feet per second. How can you calculate muzzle energy, Killing effectiveness, etc. Is this load equivilent to a 450/400? Appreciate any help. The load shoots great and is sweet to shoot.

Thanks,

Larry

Muzzle energy... velocity x velocity x bullet weight divided by 450240.

1910 x 1910= 3648100 x 450 = 1641645000 divided by 450240 = 3,646 ft. pounds energy...

DM

Actually it is 3645.02 ft-lbs, but close enough.

Thanks for feedback but real question is your opinion on "Killing Ability". Only way to know for sure is to try it but what current african caliders is this similar to?

Thanks,

Larry

According to the Lee Shooter Bullet Energy Calculator, that's not evengood enough for a brown bear, which is over 4,000 ft/lbs.

Looks as if it's the rough energy equivalent of the 9.3x62 mauser, a fine cape buffalo cartridge according to many on this Board. I have no experience of it myself.

Regards

There is no reasonable way to equate the energy level of a larger cartridge to that of a substantially smaler cartridge and come up with a killing effectivenes comparison.

All of the measures for estimating or comparing perforance are skewed.

For example, the 9.3 solid WILL penetrate much deeper, assuming similar shape bullet, because energy per unit of frontal area is much greater for the smaller cartridge.

On the other hand, the soft from the larger cartridge may penetrate all out of sorts compared to the soft out of the smaller cartridge because it will not open as much because of the reduced velocity, and may not even open at all...

The better comparison would be the 500NE vs. the 500BPE or NFB, I think. What the 500BPE would do, so would your reduced load 500NE.

BTW, irrelevantly comparing energy levels is the primary error upon which 45/70 fans base their false believe that the 45/70 is a DG cartridge and as effective on DG as, say, a 375H&H or 450/400. How many times have we read that a "'hot loaded' 45/70 has the same energy as a 375H&H, ergo, it is every bit the DG cartridge that a 375H&H is?" We know that is false, and the comparison of a 9.3 at its normal performance level vs. the 500NE at reduced performance level is equally false and misleading.

JPK

Math check! That's 4600lb.

quote:

Originally posted by Omnivorous_Bob:
Math check! That's 4600lb.

They must be using different math up there now... lol

DM

Here's a good site that lets you just plug in the numbers to get muzzle energy. Like JPK said, the efficacy can be considered from several different perspectives. The use of (energy)x (cross-section area) for "efficacy" show that your load is much closer to a 470NE than it is to a 9.3.
IMO, it would be more than enough under any circumstance for bear.

http://billstclair.com/energy.html

I would consider a 450-grain bullet to be on the light side for a 50 caliber rifle. But it should suffice for short-range bear shooting.

You have the muzzle energy, but foot-pounds are not a reliable guide to the killing power of such a big bullet.

Thanks to all for feedback. Just wanted to make one thing clear is that the thread seems to have gravitated to me hunting bear. Maybe because of my ID of BigBBear. Truth is I go back to Africa in July for Lion, Buffalo, Ele, etc. I would not use the reduced velocity loads on any of these but I may try it on something else. Key is this is a great load from a comfort to shoot, regulation same as full test, etc. Too bad not to enjoy it. I am not sure of the calculations above either. I get the lower energy and not the 4600 ft pds. Can someone clarify which is right. The actual velocity per Dirk is 1980. I sort of hoped that it would be equivilient to the 450/400 in that it would be great to have the 500 for all its value and then be able to download and get the approximate benefit of the much milder 450/400 in effect. Opinions on this are appreciated.

I get 3918 by hand and 3917 using the site SGraves155 provides.

I am sure it would be fine for kudu and tother palins game, but I would only use the full house loads for fear of mixxing them up - or, if you do bring tham, please keep them in a seperate container and use indlimble marker to mark the cartridged base.

JPK

Very few animals are killed by "muzzle energy" --- the more important things are shot placement, bullet design and energy delivered at the point of impact.

Try this
http://billstclair.com/energy.html

or
http://www.classifiercalc.com/misc_calcs/me.php

here is an all inclusive calculator
http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/cal...ns/calculations.html

Translational kinetic energy is mv^2/2 or

(450/7000)(1910)(1910)/2(32.17) = 3645.02 ft-pounds force

And that what the bullet energy is.

I don't give a shit if Obama and Chavez say it be different, dem physics don't lie like politicians!

Thanks for all the great facts. The question now is if I do a rough calculation on the 375 H&H or the 450/400 they seem to be in the same category as this reduced 500NE load. I am not asking if they are as effective yet, but is is logical to concur that it should be, that is, that it should kill as effectively as either recognizing that the 375 has legendary penetration.

Second question can only be answered by trying it out. I have two cow buffalo on quota for bait in July so with PH full understanding, I may give it a try. If I do, I will keep the bullets and let you know.

What I really like about it is the ability to really enjoy lots of shooting with the big gun.

Comments please

It is NOT logical to draw comparisons between say, a 9.3 or 375H&H with similar energy for the reasons I gave above. Your reduced loads will lead to less penetration than the 9.3 or 375 with solids, and their penetration is enough but none too much, imo. With a soft designed for your velocity, you will also see less penetration, imo.

Not comparable for the same reasons the 45/70 isn't the DG cartridge that either the 9.3 or 375 is either.

Nevertheless, if a 500BPE would do the job, so would your down loads. And they will do the job - with solids - on the buff, imo. I believe that you may well be short penetration with any bullets that expands much, or at all.

But, why bother? You won't feel much recoil at all shooting at a buff. My458 rifle recoils barely enough to let me know it has fired when there is a buff or elephant in front! Same with non DG as well.

JPK

OK, so I think I understand this. I have never used a Taylor Knockdown calculator but i am just curious enough on this one to do it. Here is what I got. The full test 570 gr 500NE has a TKO of 86, the reduced load I am talking about has a TKO of 63, a factory 375H&H = 40, and a 450/400 a TKO of 48. This load then is approx. 50% more than a 375 and 30% more than a 450/400. If the TKO has any reasonableness to it, why is this load not as lethal as the 450/400 at a minimum? I am not hoping to start an argument, just an honest debate. I do not know the legacy of the 45/70 but I realize the argument there. i see this as different. the only way we will know is to try it but it would seem fun to all the big bore guys to have a load that is effective and pleasant to use on the not so nasty stuff. and no, recoil does not really bother me on game at all. It is just the desire to have more fun with the rifle. Many here know me and can imagine I take a punch well.

The Taylor KO formula is, as Taylor himself discusses, an attempt to find some correlation between bore, velocity, bullet weight and the effect of a solid shot into elephants from a given cartridge which miss the brain closely.

While many different non elephant cartridge and bullet weights are contained in his table, this is the gist of his formula, as he himself describes.

When comparing cartridges, say the 450/400 vs the 450NE and the 500NE, the built in presumption with the already tried and true bore, bullet weight and velocity combinations that they will kill and elephant with a perfect brain shot, ie they will have sufficient penetration.

A bullet with minimum sectional density of .300 or better, minimum velocity of about 2100fps or better is a tried and true formula for NE era "big bore" penetration sufficient to kill elephants or buff. It has even worked for smaller bores.

So, the 500NE, shooting .510" bullets weighing 570grs at 2150fps is going to be superior to the 450/400 shooting 400gr .408" or .411" bullets at 2125fps, in so far as knock out effect, with a missed brain shot. Both rounds meet the SD > .300, V > 2100fps criteria. That is where Taylor's KO list has merit, and only where his list has merit.

Your down loaded 500 meets neither criteria and so it falls outside of the relevant comparisons possible with his tables, or even contemplated by Taylor.

I looked at the SD of your 450gr bullet, it is roughly .247, iirc, well below .300. Your velocity is low as well, but not all that much too low at 1980fps. Being low on SD raises serious concerns regarding suficiency of penetration. Being low on velocity furthers those concerns.

I will add more to this later, but need to run now. Sufice to say that a SD .341 round nose solid bullet at 2050fps has sufficient but not much extra penetration for use on buff. Drop either SD or velocity - and your downloads drop both materially, especially SD, and you are wandering into "marginal" territory.

Revisit energy per unti of frontal area, not energy per unit of diameter, and you should see what I'm discussing. VAST differences between 9.3x62 or 375H&H and 450gr .510" at 1980fps.

JPK

Continuing...

Taylor on his KO figures, "... I do not pretend that they denote killing power." And, "It must be clearly understood, however, that they really only apply to bluff-nosed solid bullets used against heavy massive-boned animals."

Note that Taylor included the smaller cartridges because others had used them and he wanted to discourage this practice. Note also, there are NO BPE cartridges listed, and it is the 500EX, the black powder round, that your downloads closely resemble. Kynamco shows the 3" and 3 1/4" versions both running 440gr bullets at 1900fps.

BTW, Woodleigh does not show a 450gr bullet for .510" rifles, they do show a 440gr and all that they make is the soft, no solid.

The 45/70 "hot loads" run KO values a bit less and down, but always more than the 9.3 or 375H&H by a wide margin. The "hot loaded" 45/70's make up in bullet weight what your down loads make up in bore diameter. This reflects the shortcomings of Taylor's KO Values, which I generally think have merit when considering like SD DG rounds with solid bullets that adhere to the Brit tried and true SD > .300, V > ~2100fps formula. For example, comparing a 500NE to a 500/465NE using Taylor's table is a rational use of the table, and the comparison has merit. All discussion discussing solids.

Assuming you can get 450gr or 440gr solids, on to energy per untit of frontal area, or penetration potential. The 500 bullet has a frontal area of .1875sq", the 375H&H bullet .1104sq". The 375H&H has only 59% of the frontal area of the 500. Said differently, the 500 has 70% more frontal area than the 375.

Using the energy figures from Kynamco for the 375 Flanged, which are lower than the 375H&H, but which history has proven adequate for buff and elephants, we have 3930ft/lbs. (This loading also reflects the common view that the 375H&H ought to be slowed down a bit for better, more reliable performance on buff, and to avoid over penetration with solids, ie, to leave the solid bullet in the buff on broadside shots - I don't believe in over penetration, but obviously some do, I want through and throughs for solids.)

Using the online calculator I came up with 3917 for your down loads, Will, an engineer, came up with ~3600ft/lbs. I suspect Will is right, but lets use the higher 3917ft/lbs for our discussion.

What could possibly make anyone believe that a bullet with 70% more frontal area, but equal energy, compared to the smaller, adequate bullet (- which is loaded to a velocity designed to leave the bullet in the animal on broadside shots -) is going to penetrate sufficiently in a buff? EVEN WITH SOLIDS!

Now on to SD. The Woodleigh 440's list a SD of .242, the 570's .313. Not coincidentally, the 9.3 286gr and the 375H&H 300gr bullets have SD of .305. The 130gr 270 bullet shares the .242 SD of the 440gr .510" bullet. The 165gr .308" bullet SD = .248. Neither the .277" nor the .308" bullet could be considered heavy for calibre, or, as softs, renowned penetrators in a (bonded) lead core bullet like a Woodleigh. The 440gr or a 450gr .510" bullet would be no different, and it would open up at the speeds your reduced load pushes them, since their design speed is 1700-2000fps. Any expansion will create issue with penetration.

SD of various proven rounds which fall into the SD > .300, V > ~2100fps Brit formula, which have Taylor KO numbers surrounding 64:

375H&H 300gr = SD .305, KO = 40
400NE 400gr = .338 or .344 depending on rifle bore, KO = 49
404J 400gr = .319, KO = 49
416R 410 = .338, KO = 57
425WR 410 = .310, KO = 58
450NE 480 = .327, KO = 67
465H&H 480 = .313, KO = 67
470NE 500 = .318, KO = 71
My favorite, 476WR 520 = .328, KO = 74

One cannot escape the huge disimilarities between your downloads and proven DG rounds with any Taylor KO value surrounding the one your rounds produce. Presuming similar performance, by any measure, is an error.

As I said way back in my first post, look at what a 500BPE was successfully used for and you have found the limits of your down loads. Should you wish to aim for maximum penetration with your downloads, switch bullets to a .510" 450 or 500gr hard cast, gas checked flat nose "solid" and have at it(.510" is the same diameter as the 50 Alaskan Express, so they will be available.)

Better yet, stick to your 570gr loads for everything and don't look back. Or get a 375 Flanged for fun and reduced shooting, it will still do the job on buff ans elephant if required.

JPK