I have a couple DR's (9.3x74R, 45-70, and 30-06), and of course I "want" a BIG BORE. So the question is which caliber. Theres nothing wrong with .450-400. The 470 seems the most popular and Im not opposed to it; but Im also thinking 500NE. Im also toying with the thought of 577.

Im not overly recoil sensative (famous last words); but I dont have anything to compare these too. Ive shoot 50BMG; but a 35lb Barrett from a bench is not the same. Honstly part of this is for the "mine is bigger" part of me, and part is 'cus' Im finally in a position to plan a DG hunt and I wont the whole experience.

Just when I convincce myself that the 9.3x74R is fine, I start thinking about a 500NE I saw at Cabella's. I "need" it like my kids "need" ice cream for breakfast; but that doesnt mean it wont be handy on a DG hunt Im planning for 2013/14.

Depends on how many pounds you want your rifle to weigh, how good shape you are in if you plan to tote it yourself, and how much walking you plan to do on Safari. I flat guarantee you, if you carry an 11 to 11-1/2 pound .470 and walk all day, it will weigh 1,400 pounds by the end of the day particularly in rthe hotter temp areas). A .577 should probably weigh 13 pounds or more unless you genuinely like recoil. (Then, it should still weigh 13 pounds.)

I think your smart trick would be to get what the majority of African pros used in the OLDE days until they were outlawed in some colonies and they had to go to the .470, .476, etc. Get a plain old .450 Nitro (3-1/4 inch) or something even a bit smaller such as a .450/.400 3". I've owned and shot all those calibers in doubles. Much as I loved my .470, today I'd pick the 10-1/2 pound .450 Nitro.

I do not own a DR but I have dreamed of owning one for over 35 years. I had the good fortune to shoot a few DRs with friends in the US a couple of years ago.

With what you already have, I see the options as follows

* 375 or 450/400
* 450NE or 470 NE
* 500 NE, 577 NE or 600 NE

You could move the 500NE one level & club with the 450 or 470 - as the bullet weights and velocities are closer than the 577 & 600.

It all boils down to what you want the rifle for. If it is just the pleasure of owning a BIG bore, I would just go for the 577 or 600 as I have the others to play with more often and hunt locally. On the other hand, if you are considering a serious African DG safari, I would go for the 450NE or the 470 NE and use the 9.3 as the PG rifle. I think a 10.5 lbs rifle is a far more paractical tool to carry long miles in the bush after DG.

Here is what I would recommend, shoot a 450/400, a 470, a 500 and a 577.

That is the ONLY way you will know what is best for you.

Also if you are going to hunt mostly elephants a 470 or a 500 is worth a look.

Even back in the day, very few used a 577 as a Primary... And those that did had a "fleet" of gun beareres, they did not carry thier own guns...

If you are over 40, and will only shoot a dozen or so elephants, and a bunch of buffalo the 450/400 will serve you well.

Also the 450/400 is a great lion gun, especially if scoped. And as you get older, it is a great scoped buffalo gun as well.

I observed no noticeable difference concerning recoil between a 10 pound 450/400 shooting a 400 grain bullet at just under 2,000 fps compared to a 450 NE weighing 11 pounds shooting a 500 grain bullet at 2,100 fps. But I think both rifles weighed 1/2 pound more than they needed to.

There is no substitute for actually shooting the caliber and rifle you are interested in and if you buy one double you will most likely buy another. For that reason I recommend you start with the 9,3x74R. In a lightweight Chapuis they are no slouch in the recoil department, easy to carry, forgiving to load for, and usually very accurate.

I picked the 470 twice mainly for practicality as there would be very little between it and the next contender (the 450NE).

If I were in your shoes, I would purchase a .450/.400, .450 NE or .500. I would not go above the .500 as your next "practical" gun. I'll extend the same offer to you as I did Bill (vagrouser). Come on down to my place and shoot a couple. Bill did and ended up ordering a V-C .500.

Vintagers is just around the corner in both place and time. If you can't meet up with Don (a great guy), you might be able to "feel, fondle and fire" a few different doubles there.

Griffin & Howe is having a show and shoot coming up in a couple of weeks as well. Quite a list of manufacturers bringing stuff there. Ken Buch will have a handful of Verney-Carron doubles.

Good luck.

While I love shooting the 450/400--if you want a big bore--a true step up from the 9.3x74R I'd go 450, 470, or 500.After you shoot and master one of these 3 then step up to a 577 or 600 if you want to then. As said above the big guns are heavy and a range session last 4-6 shots. A trim 450 ammo will be inexpensive, you can shoot it 20+ rounds without getting "nervy" and would be easy to reload for.

Good luck,

Ed

Why not a .505 Gibbs Flanged?

quote:

Originally posted by EDELWEISS:
Honstly part of this is for the "mine is bigger" part of me

Just when I convincce myself that the 9.3x74R is fine, I start thinking about a 500NE I saw at Cabella's.

Taking these 2 statements into account, I think any rifle you choose other than the 500NE will have you looking for a 500NE before you get home with your new gun.

I shoot a 500 and it is my favorite rifle. Mine is a Merkel and is a bit light in my opinion at 10.5 lbs. The recoil is stiff but not unmanageable by any account. It just takes a bit of practice to stay proficient with it. Any big bore rifle you purchase will get heavy by the end of the day when hunting in hilly terrain or hot weather. I've shot a 470 and a 475 #2. I think the recoil is similar to my 500.

I've not shot the 450/400 but that caliber is quite a bit smaller than what you are considering. I've also not fired the 450 so I can't compare to it. But going back to your statements about wanting the largest, I think the 500 will be your best bet while staying within the boundaries of being reasonable (i.e. 577 or 600).

Since you already have 3 DR's something tells me that this next purchase will not be your last!

quote:

Come on down to my place and shoot a couple. Bill did and ended up ordering a V-C .500.

Damn Don, I wish I still lived down the road from you... I need to get me grubby paws on some doubles...

Baxter, that would be fun and you and your brother sure would be be welcome to shoot my new 500. Don is a great guy and has to share the blame for my interest in DRs. Hope your bro and his wife are enjoying the Airweight I sold him.
Cheers,
Bill

Come to the vintagers Sept. 22thru25th. Maryland Pintail point.

Mike

Dang Doc and Bill. Thank you for the kind words. I am always most happy to invite others into my addiction . BTW, going to visit my old country buddy (Ken Bush) tomorrow to burn some nitro cellulose on my way to Cabela's in Hamburg, Pa.. Spend some money and the night. Then to Gettysburg to pick up my new bird dog,L.C. (English Setter ) from Brian at S&M Hunting Lodge on my way home. It's ALL good!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe: For that reason I recommend you start with the 9,3x74R.

Unless I drank the bong water, he stated he owned a 9.3x74R.

You are correct. Sorry for missing that.

.500 NE

Have a Searcy 500 NE, and going to have a set of 450/400 3" set of barrels built. Best of both worlds.

What has caught your eye at Cabelas? Sabatti, Merkel??

My 9.3 is a Sabatti. So far Im happy with it. Its a giant leap up from my other DRs (Bakial 30-06 and 45-70). Id be inclined to stick with the Sabatti just for common controls; but it was a Blaser that I saw in 500NE that been calling me.

The cocking lever doesnt intimidate me and I keep thinking that the Blaser would be another step up. I was also toying with the thought of a Searcy.

Clearly my Dangerous Game hunting will be limited compared to other game here in the US and in Afrika. Thats one of the reasons I chose the 9.3, I figured it'll get more use on both sides of the Atlantic. A 500NE is "mission specific" and hardly recreational; but its a BIG BORE.

Id like a 577NE but heck Id like something in a BPE or even a Gauge Gun too. Is it a sickness, cus it feels good????

Come to the vintagers there will be lots of vintage rifles to look at and you may find a BPE to purchase.

Mike

quote:

My 9.3 is a Sabatti. So far Im happy with it. Its a giant leap up from my other DRs (Bakial 30-06 and 45-70). Id be inclined to stick with the Sabatti just for common controls

Certainly you have a nice rifle there, if you are happy with it, that is all what counts.

I do own one (9.3x74 Sabatti) and it is a beautiful accurate wonderful little gun, I enjoyed shooting it a lot when I had the chance on my last vacation,
I think you will shoot it well, cause a rifle that you are happy with you will tend to shoot a lot and therefore become very proficient with it, so you will gain confidence with the rifle and your shooting and when your front sights do cover the shoulder of that game you are after, be it a buffalo in Africa or a wild boar here in the States, the outcome will be the same, meet in the pot.

As far as another caliber, well when the time came for me to chose a bigger DG rifle, my choice fell on non but the old trusted .470NE (a Sabatti too). Even though I was convinced that the .500 NE would be an idle gun for the DG hunter, but after I had studied, read and listened to very knowledgeable, experienced hunters/gun writers here on AR and else were for many years. About all the different DG African calibers, their knock down power, penetration, availability of ammo, weight of rifle, the practicality of carrying it for long hot days in the field, how hard it kicked, etc. I came to the conclusion that the .470 NE will suet me the most for all the above mentioned reasons.
Good luck.


Malek

Good hunting/shooting and God's best

If you have an 9,3 and now you want an more powerfull gun, take IMO:
- 470 NE
or (but test it before if the recoil is not too mutch):
- 500 NE

2 guys with 3 sabatti's and all 3 shoot great. Interesting.

quote:

2 guys with 3 sabatti's and all 3 shoot great. Interesting.

About to become 4 Sabattis with the new addition of the 450/400 God willing.
There are a lot of good ones out there with good muzzles that shoot well, I have looked over many rifles with perfect muzzles, excellent fit and gorges wood, one of them that I fell in love with if I may say so, was a 450 that was stunning, but I was in the market for 470.
If you go back and read through the reports you will find out that even the guys that had rifles with muzzle problems and returned those rifles to Cabela's, stated that they would buy another Sabatti if the muzzles were perfect.
Well there are many out there with good muzzles, one has to look and examine carefully and Cabela’s people are willing to help, sure thing they did help me a lot

Malek

Good hunting/shooting and God's best

And that would include me. I sent my 450NE back, not because it did not shoot as a lot of you saw my targets, but it did have a boogered up barrel and I just couldn't live with that. I had really nice wood, excellent wood to metal fit and it fit me well

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
And that would include me. I sent my 450NE back, not because it did not shoot as a lot of you saw my targets, but it did have a boogered up barrel and I just couldn't live with that. I had really nice wood, excellent wood to metal fit and it fit me well

I'm on that list as well

quote:

Originally posted by husky:
Why not a .505 Gibbs Flanged?

Never heard of this; who makes it?

I am learning the fact that double gun shooting is a completely different animal. You can get a
bad build no matter the price. "The final chapter for my Verney Carron" is a case in point. Do all
purveyors of there guns support them at the level
Ken does. Has anyone else here had a premium gun
not perform as expected?

Since you have a 45-70 a good answer is the 450 NE. And the 577

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by jorge:
And that would include me. I sent my 450NE back, not because it did not shoot as a lot of you saw my targets, but it did have a boogered up barrel and I just couldn't live with that. I had really nice wood, excellent wood to metal fit and it fit me well


I'm on that list as well

Jorge and Doc:

I now of many others who can join the list.
I must say though, that I do appreciate your objectiveness and fairness in presenting the facts without biasness despite the things that you had to go through. yet you stuck to the facts and did not waver but presented an honest assessment in order to help others make up their minds. My hat is off to you guys.



Hopefully one of those days you will find the right Sabatti that you will be happy with and save yourself a bundle. (I know you well not settle down for what you have it’s a disease)



Malek

Good hunting/shooting and God's best

Guys, if looking at a Sabatti's description on the Cabella's website, would you assume that if it says NIB that it hasn't been sold and returned, but if it says "Bore condition excellent, Wood excellent", etc. that it is a returned rifle and probably has ground muzzles?

There are many rifles listed but they are scattered all over the US so if you find one that interests you, it may or may not be available for an in person inspection.

I'm going to have another quality double built to my specs next year, maybe Searcy, maybe VC, but I switch off taking my two sons hunting with me to Africa, and I would like for them to have an opportunity to use a double without breaking the bank on a rifle for them. Neither are capable of handling my 500, I have a 9.3X74R on the way from Ken but I'd like to get a 450/400 for them to share.

I'm probably crazy for even thinking about the Sabatti at this point with all the info that has come out, but there are also these reports from guys that are happy with them.

Anyway, back to the question. What do you think about the listed descriptions. If they are returns, they sure haven't reduced the prices!

quote:

There are many rifles listed but they are scattered all over the US so if you find one that interests you, it may or may not be available for an in person inspection.

Just so you know, Cabela's will ship a gun it has in another location to a store near you for just $25. I saw a Sabatti on the website listed in the Buda, TX store and had it shipped to Hamburg,PA for me to look at. I didn't end up taking it because the Hamburg store also got in another 450\400 in which I liked the wood better. Anyway, my point is that if you are serious about wanting that in person inspection, Cabela's ships for $25. A cheap means of being able to visually inspect what could your next double.

One year ago I bought my first double rilfe in 9,3x74R, it is a good alround rifle up to 150m. The 9,3 does not have the range limites as the large caliber which are build for close range.

But I also want to get a real African DR. I ended up to order it in the 470NE. Mainly because the ammo availability and it fits so good in the gap between my 404 and the 50BMG. When I would not have a 50BMG then I would also have taken the 500NE, but in my case that would only be a very slow 50Cal.

Finally I odered a Merkel 160AE because the triggers on the 140 (box lock is haevy and the sidelock of the new production are really nice). The Heym cost in the box lock version already as much as the Merkel with sidelocks.

Krieghoff and Blaser have no ejectors so that was never on the list. The VC I could not look at any where, so I do not know how good they are. The Sabatti I have seen at the EXA in Bescchia it looks not bad and the triggers was ok but had only box lock and cost also E6100. The Merkel is just a few hundered more (140 model). So I ended up to invest for the sidelocks that extra E5000 for the Merkel. The Italian sidelooks start over 30'000.

quote:

Originally posted by hunteratheart:

quote:

There are many rifles listed but they are scattered all over the US so if you find one that interests you, it may or may not be available for an in person inspection.

Just so you know, Cabela's will ship a gun it has in another location to a store near you for just $25. I saw a Sabatti on the website listed in the Buda, TX store and had it shipped to Hamburg,PA for me to look at. I didn't end up taking it because the Hamburg store also got in another 450\400 in which I liked the wood better. Anyway, my point is that if you are serious about wanting that in person inspection, Cabela's ships for $25. A cheap means of being able to visually inspect what could your next double.

I realize they will ship a gun to you. I'm trying to pre-qualify a gun prior to shipping for inspection to determine if it has ground muzzles or not.

quote:

Originally posted by EDELWEISS:
I have a couple DR's (9.3x74R, 45-70, and 30-06), and of course I "want" a BIG BORE. So the question is which caliber. Theres nothing wrong with .450-400. The 470 seems the most popular and Im not opposed to it; but Im also thinking 500NE. Im also toying with the thought of 577.

Im not overly recoil sensative (famous last words); but I dont have anything to compare these too. Ive shoot 50BMG; but a 35lb Barrett from a bench is not the same. Honstly part of this is for the "mine is bigger" part of me, and part is 'cus' Im finally in a position to plan a DG hunt and I wont the whole experience.

Just when I convincce myself that the 9.3x74R is fine, I start thinking about a 500NE I saw at Cabella's. I "need" it like my kids "need" ice cream for breakfast; but that doesnt mean it wont be handy on a DG hunt Im planning for 2013/14.

I hope its not a Sabatti, they are SHIT. At least the Russian double rifles work as adverstised.

quote:

I hope its not a Sabatti, they are SHIT

Just wondering whether you actually owned one or are jumping on a bandwagon? Construction was not an issue with those of us who had\have Sabattis. The issues were around regulation and grounding of muzzles. I am quite happy with mine and those that had returned theirs due to the muzzle issue seem to agree that it's the regulation issue they have a problem with - not the quality.

quote:

I realize they will ship a gun to you. I'm trying to pre-qualify a gun prior to shipping for inspection to determine if it has ground muzzles or not.

Todd:

Cabela's people have been of great help to me. I dealt with quite few of them via the Internet and ove the phone. For the most part they very helpful and did what I requested of them.

I would ask for a specific pix for the muzzles or any other part of the rifle for that matter, from different angles and sometimes I emailed them Pix as an example of what kind of an angle I needed to look at. They did email me back the pix I asked for and they were most of the time what I was looking for and if not they tried again till I got what I am looking for. All depends on the skills of the photographer they have at that particular gun library.

Utilizing this method I did reject few rifles and was able to buy me 2 beautiful, accurate Sabattis that I am very happy and satisfied with and they shot exactly like the targets accompanied them (no crossing).

I hope this will help you “pre-qualify” and narrow down your search and then still you can have the final inspection by having them ship you that particular rifle, to the nearest store where you can physically examine it.

Good luck whish you the best, you can PM me if you have any more questions.

Malek

Good hunting/shooting and God's best

Thanks Malek, I appreciate it. Didn't know if they are sensitive to the ground muzzle issue or not as I haven't brought it up to the guys at my local Cabela's. I'm glad to hear that they are willing to work to assure the customer of getting a good one.

Thanks for the info.

Todd