The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles RL 15 for the 470NEGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Thanks Jim; your post seems to confirm that a load of 88g of RL 15 is the way to go. Best regards Malek Good shooting/hunting and God's best. Best regards Malek Good Hunting/Shooting and God's best. | |||
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The Kynoch wads I use are available Here Jim "Bwana Umfundi" NRA | |||
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Looking at some of my data when I was shooting the woodleigh bullets more I had one lot of RL15 that regulated with a 500 soft at 85.0 grains of RL15 at 2140. Now I have mixed eight 5 pound jugs of RL15 so I won't have that varience problem anytime soon. Mac | |||
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Have one 5 pound can of RL 15 held if you wish to have it. Price is $135.00 plus shipping to yourself ORMD. If you wish this let us know promptly as it is very difficult to obtain.  | |||
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I appreciate the offer Glen but while searching for RL-15 yesterday, I ran across several pounds of IMR 4007 SSC which is the powder I used prior to RL-15. I already have a load developed with it so I bought enough to get me through the next year or so. I'll go back to RL-15 once it becomes available again. Now if I could just find some small magnum pistol primers!! Components are like gold right now! | |||
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Todd - if you get in extremis for RL-15, I could spare you a couple of pounds. | |||
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Admiral & Todd, with a 470 and only 1/2lb left is by definition IN EXTREMIS!!!  USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Thanks Admiral, I appreciate it. But I'm set for the foreseeable future now after yesterday's purchase. I even found some 22LR!! | |||
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No problem. | |||
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Very True!  | |||
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Todd, How many SPM primers would get you by? I don't shoot too many small pistol calibers and have a few to help a friend out. | |||
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I'll tell ya guys; there are some great fellows here on AR! Even with the shortages of components, guys are offering to share what they have. Rick, I sent you a PM. Hopefully the suppliers will get components back into the pipeline before too long. | |||
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I don't know how long it will take. My supplier is telling me not to expect any of the primers I have on order for at least a year. All of the primer production is going to ammo manufacturers. Hope he's wrong. | |||
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Last year Norma started reconstructing their distribution in the US. I don't think Accurate will be selling RL-15? I have forgotten who the new distributor for Norma will be? Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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Mac; 40lb of powder now that is a good stash, it is a little over 3000 rounds. no wonder you are not worried about needing any in the near future. way to go  Best regards Malek Good shooting/hunting and God's best. Best regards Malek Good Hunting/Shooting and God's best. | |||
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What are you saying Rusty, should we stash up if we can find it?  I did ask this before I don't know if you read it. Any way I figured I will ask it again if you or anybody else for that matter knows what Norma's NURP is equivalent to. Best regards Malek Good shooting/hunting and God's best. Best regards Malek Good Hunting/Shooting and God's best. | |||
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+1 Best regards Malek Good shooting/hunting and God's best. Best regards Malek Good Hunting/Shooting and God's best. | |||
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Hello Todd: Finally I am able to settle down at the computer, I figured I would not want to leave you wondering and bewildered. You are right about one can make #s say what they want them to say that is if they want to cheat or miss represent things, which I don't think it is the case here. it is simple I invite you to plug in your #s and see for yourself.  As for the sopping up of the 470. I think I did answer that before and I will try to explain the reason behind the madness a bit more. If one happened to lose his ammo while traveling on a hunting trip for one reason or another. He can almost always find ammo for the 470 and if he happened to find federal it will be even the better. It is loaded with the fine 500 woodleigh or the swift bullets and it is fast (2200f/s). Usually the ammo companies will exaggerate the velocity of their ammo. You will find most of it running a bit shy from the advertized figures. I read it many times that Federal's ammo for the 470 usually runs around 2200f/s. That will close the gap a bit between the 470 and the 500, especially if the figures for the 500 does not live up to what the manufactures claim it to be, which is usually the case. Also the faster the bullet arrives at the target the more the penetration is in case it was needed. of course that depends on the type, shape and the SD of the bullet, in this case the SD of the 470 and 500 almost the same. So a 100f/s faster bullet will penetrate few inches deeper, so giving up a bit of shocking effect for a bit of deeper penetration. [B]and also enhances the penetration, as I stated in earlier posts and you mentioned some of them in your post quoted here. I hope that clarifies things a bit. Taylor reports that the question that some might have had about the 470's abilities were due to the type of bullet that it was loaded with which hampered it penetration ability and not to the capability of the cartridge itself. In Buzzes DVD (I must agree with you that Buzz's DVD is an excellent one) if I recall Stan Cenegren states that he did not recommend the 470 for big bulls and that could well be as Taylor pointed out because of the bullets that it was loaded with. also Stan did mention that he used to shoot both barrels of his 500 simultaneously in order for him to knock down the elephant and then put a finisher in his head. I have seen footage on were buffalo were shot point blank in the face and it did not faze it a bit and that after being shoot 4 times with the 375 and once with the 500 and it had to be finished with a third shot to the brain from the 500. Also seen many Footage where buffalo were shot numerous times with the 577 and had to be finished with a brain shot. That is why I am a firm believer that there is no such a cartridge that will pole ax any dangerous animal if that animal is not hit directly in the brain or spine/neck and that shot placement is more important than caliber. Again this can go on and on till God knows when, but the bottom line is that we are both in agreement that both cartridges are excellent DG medicine. Also I agree with you that the 500 has a slight edge over the 470 an edge I am not sure I will need. Best regards Malek Good shooting/hunting and God's best. Best regards Malek Good Hunting/Shooting and God's best. | |||
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And I'll throw this into the discussion, the issue of Sectional Density (penetration). On more that one occassion, very experienced professionals and clients have discussed this and I believe there is a specific article on this regarding the 500 on the latest edition of African Hunter. Penetration, epecially in the case of elephant, IS everything and in my view that needs to be taken into consideration as well when selecting a cartridge/bullet combo. Thank goodness for CEBs!!! USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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No! Just buy Norma 203B. RL-15 is just another batch of Norma 203B. Norma uses it at their factory and used to package it for Accurate as RL-15. Don't fret! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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Malek and Todd I did, myself, chronograph Butch Searcy's regulation load in my .470. Butch said his load was pushing a 500 gr woodleigh/hornady,barnes in the neighborhood of 2250. I also ran the CEB's through the chronograph. My figures came up Wodleigh softs 2236/woodleigh solids 2249 Hornady was in the same vicinity as were the Barnes. The CEB's however went 2256 for the solid and 2291 for the Non Con. That equals by the formula, jus a fraction over 5,650 fp of energy. Butch says his regulation for the .500 NE is a 570 around 2150. I don't have mine yet so I can only run the formula and it is 5,849.97 fp of energy. About 250 fp difference. I'm not an expert and not trying to  just running numbers. | |||
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Pago - sending a PM. Thx. | |||
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Malek and Rick, Again, numbers simply do not tell the entire story and regardless of intent, 1+1 just doen't always give the same result. I'm speaking of the hopped up 470 numbers of an additional 100fps or so when both the 470 and 500 are nominally 2150fps calibers. Running the 470 at 2250 still doesn't make it equal to the 500NE. Here is an example straight out of the Nosler reloading guide No. 6. Please, check my numbers for accuracy. They are spot on, I assure you. The 300WBY Mag will drive a 180gr bullet at 3,198fps for any energy number of 4,092ft./lbs. The 375 H&H will push a 300gr bullet at 2,500fps for an energy number of 4,163ft/lbs. Total difference of 71ft./lbs of energy difference between the two. Practically speaking, that is the same amount of energy between the two calibers. Does anyone think the 300Wby is on the same level as the 375H&H against large dangerous game animals? A prime example of making the numbers say what you want them to say. No lying involved or even misrepresentation. Just that there is more to the story than the numbers alone. However, I doubt you'll find many with actual dangerous game field experience that will choose the 300Wby to tackle a Cape Buffalo in the thick jesse. (Personally, I don't even want the 375 in the jess, rather the 500NE )Of course with a subject such as DG calibers, type of bullets, rifle action types, and so on, there will never be universal agreement on much of anything. But some consensus can be arrived at from combinations of actual experience, video evidence, and the writings of men with much more experience than any of us are likely to achieve in today's hunting environments. No, those opinions will not agree 100% but the majority will say that there is a noticeable difference in reaction of large dangerous animals such as buffalo and elephant from being hit with a 450-470 class weapon and the 500NE. Most will also state that there is a line of diminishing returns above the 500NE in which not much if any difference in animal reaction is observed between being hit with the 500NE and the ultra bores such as the 577NE and 600NE, regardless of the difference in "the numbers" of the ultra bores. On top of that is the shooter's ability to use the weapon. I'm not speaking in terms of being able to handle the recoil but rather the ability to carry a 450 to 500 class rifle all day as compared to a 577 or 600 along with the weight of the ammo. The hunter's physical requirements for carrying and using the 450 to 500 class guns and ammo all day is just less than the physical requirements of carrying the ultra bores and their ammo. And to what effect if the animal's reaction to the bullet is the same ... other than the fact that hunting with a 577 or 600 is just a hell of a lot of fun and very cool! As long as someone carries the rifle for you most of the time! | |||
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Todd, As I said I'm not trying to argue or stir the pot. You have used the .500 and the .577 and have made your choice. I was just posting numbers for comparison. It's also why I ordered the Searcy in .500NE. although, in '11, I shot my buffalo at 20 yards with my .458 Lott and the then new Hornady DGX (POS bullet). 500 gr moving around 2254 and literally knocked him off his feet with a heart shot. Since the .470 with Butch's regulation load and CEB's is doing the same velocity, it will work just fine. Now I have to try the .500 through the Chrono and see what it does. I agree that the larger frontal surface will impart more shock albeit not that much more frontal surface but I do expect a more from the .500 than the .470. I'm not arguing with you, I'm agreeing. I know that's a shocker but I am. | |||
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Hey Rick, Just to be clear, I'm not arguing either. Not with anyone. Just keeping the debate and discussion going. No animosity intended in the least bit. Cheers my friend!  | |||
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Even though I have zero african hunting experience, I have some comments. I find it a bit daft to argue that the 470 and 500 are very similar recoil wise while at the same time boasting the effect of the 500 up to another Level than the 470. Recoil (momentum back) is equal to punch (momentum forward)... The 500 recoils 10-15 percent more in a same weight rifle (momentum is 10-15 percent more). We then will have to argue if 10-15 percent increase in momentum is noticable on the recieving end. I suspect not.... a .375 will probably have the same effect unless the very rare situation one is trying to KO elephants missing the brain... who knows... | |||
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Which is exactly where these big bore rifles excel over smaller but adequate calibers such as the 375. And that knocking out of an elephant with a close miss to the brain is not a very rare situation at all! At least not any more rare that the actual hunting of elephant is in and of itself. For me, personally, I have yet to center punch that brain exactly right. So far, every one of them have dropped in their tracks but required a follow up shot to finish. The ele I shot this past October turned after the first shot (frontal with the 577 hit too high) but was dropped with the second from behind. The frontal brain shot is difficult at best and although the side brain shot is easier, I haven't done it exactly right yet either. The slightly low side brain shot from 2011 was primarily due to range being about 40 to 50 yards. Not normally the way you would shoot an ele but we needed leopard bait. Bait needs often dictate making sacrifices such as longer ele shots or smaller dugga boys (albiet fully mature) than usual being taken. Cats (bait) usually take precedence with the exception of an ele bull. I would say this thread has significantly drifted from the OP of RL15 in the 470NE so I'll leave it at this point. I did enjoy the discussion guys. | |||
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Ok, but then again, what difference does going from 470 to 500 make on missed frontal brain shots? Penetration is similar, diameter is similar (less than 1mm increase)... Anyway, my next rifle will be a 577NE so it's not like I don't understand why one would wish to hunt with one But practical or rational...perhaps not. Fun and nostalgic, hell yes! | |||
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jorge; yes penetration is a very important factor especially when hunting DG. It is very important to be able to get to the vitals on your first shot. But as important as the first shot is the second is almost as important in bagging the animal and minimizing the tracking efforts, especially when the first shot misses its mark. Usually it is taken at a departing animal giving you his hind quarters as a target, where the bullet has to drive through about 2/3 of it, plowing through huge muscles, bones, digestive system before reaching the vitals. Here where penetration becomes crucial and every extra inch makes a difference. Yes thank God there are few excellent bullets on the market today, the CEB being at the Top (from what I read here) haven’t had the chance to try it out yet. So far I haven’t read the article you mentioned, do you happen to have a link? Thanks. Pago: Thank you for chiming in, your figures so far supports what I have been saying all long regarding the velocity that can be achieved with the 470 without raising the pressure, especially with the non con CEB, quit informative. Best regards Malek Good shooting/hunting and God's best. Best regards Malek Good Hunting/Shooting and God's best. | |||
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it's the latest issue of African Hunter, I'm sure Ganyana can point you to it. USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Malek, Don't misunderstand my post. I'm just quoting velocities, not pressures. I can see quite a bit of difference in the flattening of the primers with a full 106 grain load of IMR4831 over other powders that I have loaded for the .470 before I obtained a Searcy double and got his handload for regulation. I have no way to test pressures, I'm just trusting Butch. I do believe that the CEB's do just what Michael458 and srose say they do and after having read all of their threads on pressure tests, I think they are the way to go. And please understand that with more powder and more speed, the only thing that gets the bullet to move faster is more pressure. I'm certain that you know that already though. The only other way I know to get more speed is a lighter bullet but then, you might as well use a smaller caliber hence the lighter bullet? | |||
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Malek, I would submit that using the CEB Non-Con, one can achieve a higher velocity in the 500NE as well since it is a lighter bullet! Still, taking your comment that the 470 can be loaded faster than the 500 is just something I don't see born out anywhere, and again, if hopping up the round above nominal velocities is deemed necessary, why not just choose the better of the two to begin with. There just isn't much difference in any of the 450-470 class rounds shooting a nominal 500gr bullet at 2150fps. Here are some examples of load data that I've found. In each case, I've used the powder and load designated as the most accurate when so identified by the source. Also, these are MAX loads. I see one load in the 470 exceeding 2200fps and that one is accompanied by a note stating it exceeds allowable pressure. Although not extensive, this is the load data I currently have access to. Do you have a reference to a 2250fps 470NE load that doesn't exceed max allowable pressures? It may possibly exist, I just don't currently have access to it. I think you said Butch supplied such a load and as long as he stands behind his guns, and he does, I suppose you can go with that. But based on the +2200fps comment of exceeding pressure limits, I think I would be wary of any +P load unless I see some others accompanied by pressure data. The Barnes data is what I use for loading CEB bullets as well. In each case, that data points to the 500NE as producing more velocity than the 470NE! Again, those are the "most accurate powder" Max Loads from the manual. Barnes RL # 4: 500NE 570gr TSX 2106fps 570gr Banded Solid 2160fps 470NE 500gr TSX 1953fps 500gr Banded Solid 2078fps Nosler RL #6: Does not list either the 500NE or 470NE LoadData.com:      Norsk, the difference between the 470 and 500 in terms of diameter is .034". That's about the same as the difference between the 338WM and the 375H&H (.037"). I would say that IS significant. If not, why is the .375 the minimum legal caliber for DG in many African countries and not .338? And yes, that larger frontal area does give you a bit more margin with a close CNS miss on ele. I don't think the same can be said for buffalo however as a close CNS miss on them doesn't seem to have any immediate effect regardless of caliber, especially after he gets his adrenalin up. Check out that "Buffalo in the Jesse" video of mine for evidence of that. I missed the sweet spot on the first shot with the 577NE, then he led us on a chase for over an hour evidently running on adrenalin. I put him down with the second and third shot but had to put 3 more CEB's into him to keep him from getting back up. I don't know if he could have gotten up at that point, but after an hour of chasing him, I wasn't about to find out for sure. Besides, I like to shoot when I have the opportunity!! Look guys, I'm not saying the 470NE isn't a perfectly fine weapon. Far from it. I'm simply interested in why 470NE owners here are trying to talk themselves into hopping it up beyond it's nominal performance and then comparing it to it's big brother, the 500NE. These claims just aren't supported by any data or writings that I can find. I really would be interested to see where this is coming from as I try my best to have informed opinions based on verifiable data and experience (both mine as well as others). I see many, many claims in which the 500NE outperforms the 470NE in the field. I don't see any going the other way around. This +P 470NE velocity is just something I haven't seen previously. | |||
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Pago: I do understand what you are saying and in full agreement with you. Thanks for pointing out the pressure issue, one can never be careful enough when reloading and developing new loads. If you would read my previous posts you will see that throughout I emphasize while developing new loads that to back down from the recommended load, then start increasing the charge while watching the velocity and other signs that points to high pressure. Best regards Malek Good shooting/hunting and God's best. Best regards Malek Good Hunting/Shooting and God's best. | |||
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Hi Norsk: I do agree with you regarding the momentum out on one end should equal the momentum on the opposite end, it is simple physics. I must point out though that the RE (momentom) i calculated ended up to being a little over 20 percent, rather than the 10-15 persent you are reporting. If you would read back at the beginning of this discussion, you would find that I did compare apples to apples where I used the same rifle weight, same bullet style, same velocity (2150f/s), and same powder to achieve the same desired velocity. Using two different calculators I came up with the same results the RE on the 500 is more than the than the RE of the 470, which boils down to 20% more recoil energy. The Calculators are listed too, what calculator did you use, I will be interested to know, thanks. Best regards Malek Good shooting/hunting and God's best. Best regards Malek Good Hunting/Shooting and God's best. | |||
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Hello Todd: It good to to see you are chiming back on this thread. The reason I did not answer your previous post was that I did not want to entice you in having to answer back and then we have to stock up that fire again.  I have to reply at a latter time though, family is waiting for me Valentines dinner they call it. Oh well happy valentine’s day to all AR members and to those who chimed on this thread. God bless you and bless your families. Best regards Malek Good shooting/hunting and God's best. Best regards Malek Good Hunting/Shooting and God's best. | |||
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No problem Malek. I really attempted to back out as I kind of sensed confrontation was brewing and I didn't want to be the cause of that. As I said before, there has been no malice intended in any of my posts. I'm just attempting to find the basis for the statements made about the higher velocities in the 470. It is entirely possible that I've missed something and if so, I'd like to know. I try to have informed opinions based on data I can point to and hang a hat on, at least to the extent that is possible. All the best to you and your family in celebrating Valentines Day my friend. We'll talk later. | |||
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Sorry my miss. 20%. On another note. With 20% increase in recoil, how does this affect the speed of the follow up shot? We are all built differently and have differnt levels of recoil managing techniques, but on average, would think the speed of the second shot will be slower for the 500. It is hard to say what is more advantagous, 20% more momentum and around 5% increased bullet diameter vs a faster second shot... Anyway. With regards to loads. I have found the following: Krieghoff, 23 inch barrels (at minus 20 degrees celcius) 500gr Woodleigh SP 112gr Norma MRP = 2120 fps 105gr Norma 204 = 2020 fps I was recently reccomended 226gr H1000. A guy says it regulates (krieghoff) and gives 2100fps. I have tried to avoid fillers (never used it before) and have thought filling the case as much as possible would be advantagous. I am open to suggestions though. | |||
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Norsk, Your loads fall right in line with the data I presented. They are virtually the same as the 500NE in terms of velocity. Considering the speed of the second shot, that's a non-issue I assure you. Not even an issue with the 577NE. Here is a video of me shooting the 500NE that includes a quick second shot. The first was a frontal brain that missed just low and left as she turned her head, then the second shot comes as she is falling and strikes her in the shoulder taking out the heart. A 470NE would not have been any faster. If you have a video of yourself shooting the 470NE faster, I would like to see it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...0UNdGNVXesixFc9hTGGQ Norsk, I know you want to claim the 500NE has 20% more recoil than the 470NE but it really just doesn't bare out that way, at least for most folks. Some claim they can tell a difference between the two guns but most can't. I have to ask, have you shot the 500NE? Have you shot a 470NE and 500NE at the range on the same day and really gave them a good comparison? I would be surprised if you said yes and that the 500NE was unmanageable. I've had this discussion with quite a few fellows in the past and almost to a man, once they shoulder the 500NE they don't go back. Dave Bush is a perfect example. By all accounts, Dave is not a big macho guy but just a regular fellow like most of us. He was quite worried about the 500's recoil and mentioned numerous times here on AR that the 470 was his limit and how the 500 really banged him up. He had only shot it in an older model Heym IIRC. He found a K-Gun in 500 but was worried about the weight. He called me and a couple of other guys, we convinced him to give it a try. Result; A Convert. Sold the 470 and is now safely in the 500 fold. He has several threads on AR now where he states the same. Here is one: http://forums.accuratereloadin...861031081#2861031081 If this is really an issue for you, and it seems to be, I would suggest to put down the calculator and find someone with a 500 you can shoot and go to the range and give it a go. You'll be pleasantly surprised my friend. | |||
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Todd, That load data chart for the IMR4831 isn't consistent with my results. 106. grains of IMR4831 push 4 different kinds of bullets out of my Searcy between 2234 for the Woodleigh up to 2253 for the CEB. And me not being as up to snuff on DR's just yet don't know how much pressure they are designed to handle. Any ideas of the pressure threshhold? | |||
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I don't know Rick. The CEBs do seem to give higher velocity with the same load. They did with my 500 as well as the 577. About the pressure threshold, it's hard to pin that one down evidently. Part of the problem is that it is stated in different terms as CUP, PSI, etc. Most references that I can find seem to limit pressure to something just short of 40,000psi. But Sam and Michael tested original Kynoch loads that were in the mid 40's IIRC. Might want to check on that one as I'm working from memory. What concerns me about this discussion, and I suppose that is why I continue to chime in is that with the exception of Butch's rifles, I've never seen any data anywhere published showing a 2200fps 470NE as being safe. Of course, I haven't looked that extensively as I don't own a 470 so that data may be out there. The one thing I've always been taught with reloading is that the chronograph is the best device, we as average Joe's, have to correlate pressure with published velocities. My experience has shown that velocities in excess of published data are probably generated by excess pressure. The problem with pushing pressures above published data in a double rifle is that the action is too weak to withstand the kind of pressures that normally show with a bolt gun such as sticky extraction, case head expansion, and more importantly, flattened primers. If you can't flatten a primer in a DR, what other method do you have to judge excessive pressure other than the velocity of the load compared against published data? edited: Rick, I would be extremely suspect of that Woodleigh pushing 2200+fps. I would almost think the CEB is OK but maybe not. From my statements of the CEBs giving about 100fps more in my 500 and 577, even those CEB numbers are still within reasonable bounds of published data. It seems your data is WAY outside published marks. That would give me reason for concern unless I could find published data of those numbers which state the load is within working pressures. More specifically, the one load I posted here above 2200fps specifically states it was in excess of acceptable pressures. If you'll remember back to when Butch (or one of his rifle owners) first posted that 2250fps regulation load, there was a small groundswell of guys questioning whether or not that was accurate since the nominal load is 2150. Just things to consider. Butch's rifles ARE known to be hell for stout and Butch says it's OK. Also something to consider! | |||
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