I am in the process of reloading some 470NE ammo and would like to use RL 15. Hornady lists 86.8 grains at 1950f/s as their max load. I have read somewhere here on AR that somebody was using 89 grains with fillers no velocity reported.

I know many here have experience reloading for the 470 but how many do use RL 15 and what kind of velocities, with what loads, any signs of pressure, etc.


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best

90.0 grains with a woody 500 runs 2140 out of my heym. I have recently been shooting the CEB 500 with 93.0 grains at about 2260. I would run it slower but thats where it regulates.

oh ya....RL 15 varies a great degree between lots so work up.....

Thanks Mac; Wow 2260f/s is fast any pressure signs with the 500 CEB load? I have some Hornady 500 DGS at hand do you think that they can be substituted for the woodys with the same loads?


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best

Malek,
my Heym 470,regulates with 87 grains of RL15 for both the Woody softs & the DGS.

Thanks Bill; Any idea what kind of velocity are you getting with this load?


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best

I'm loading 87gr of RL15 with 500gr Woodleigh soft nose and 86gr with solids with the current lot of RL15 I have. I use Kynoch wads in both of these loads. The velocity is 2150-2160 at 75 degrees. I am loading this in a Merkel. At 30-40degrees the velocity is approx 2080 and at 90-95 degrees it is 2190-2200. I can also use the same load as my Searcy which is 106gr of IMR4831 which chronos at 2150-2160. Reminder that RL15 varies from lot to lot so start low and work up.

It is very interesting Ed, it looks like RL 15 is a temperature sensitive powder, also seems that thee consensus is that it varies between lots. Very important points.

I guess I should start around 85 grains and go up a grain or two at a time, depending on the velocity and temperature.


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best

quote:

Originally posted by malek:
Thanks Bill; Any idea what kind of velocity are you getting with this load?


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best

I was getting over 2100fps,worked just fine on the buff that I killed in Zim.

I would suggest that you try Norma 203B. RL-15 is just another batch of 203B and used to be sold by Accurate. You'll find less variance between batches of 203B than RL-15. I use 203B and foam filler for my 405/400 3 inch and my 404 Jeffery.

quote:

Originally posted by malek:
Thanks Mac; Wow 2260f/s is fast any pressure signs with the 500 CEB load? I have some Hornady 500 DGS at hand do you think that they can be substituted for the woodys with the same loads?

No you need to remember that these are low pressure rounds. You are not going to see the normal primer flattening etc. I believe the 88b action to be strong enough as they are made for much higher pressure rounds than the 470. Cases eject well and there is no sticking.

Mac, what are you doing messing around with a puny 470? That 577 of yours sings a better tune, for sure :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
I would suggest that you try Norma 203B. RL-15 is just another batch of 203B and used to be sold by Accurate. You'll find less variance between batches of 203B than RL-15. I use 203B and foam filler for my 405/400 3 inch and my 404 Jeffery.

Thanks for the tip Rusty; I do have couple of pounds of RL15, I will try them out for the time being. Where do you get your Norma powder from I don't see it on the shelves of the gun stores in my area. Did you use backer rod filler; I am intending to use the 1/2" backer rod as filler. Does adding the filler raises up the pressure a lot?


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Mac, what are you doing messing around with a puny 470? That 577 of yours sings a better tune, for sure :-)

I have an elephant hunt with Buzz coming up real quick and I am expecting it to be very wet. Don't want to see the 577 get drenched. My 470 has already been soggy a couple of times.

[QUOTE] I was getting over 2100fps,worked just fine on the buff that I killed in Zim. [QUOTE]

That is a decent velocity, did you use any filler?

Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:

quote:

Originally posted by malek:
Thanks Mac; Wow 2260f/s is fast any pressure signs with the 500 CEB load? I have some Hornady 500 DGS at hand do you think that they can be substituted for the woodys with the same loads?

No you need to remember that these are low pressure rounds. You are not going to see the normal primer flattening etc. I believe the 88b action to be strong enough as they are made for much higher pressure rounds than the 470. Cases eject well and there is no sticking.

Don't miss understand me, the reason among many that I leaned toward getting the 470NE verses the 500NE is that you can push it a bit faster, thus enhancing the penetration without raising much the pressure.

I was thinking more about stiffness in opening the action or a bit sticky ejection of rounds.


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best

quote:

Originally posted by malek:
[QUOTE] I was getting over 2100fps,worked just fine on the buff that I killed in Zim. [QUOTE]

That is a decent velocity, did you use any filler?

Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best

Yes I did.foam.

I do not use backer rod. I have some Kynoch type soft low density foam plugs made locally. It just as easy to buy the Kynoch type plugs for your caliber.They work great! If you can't use foam then a tuft of Polyfill ( pillow stuffing) from the fabric store or Wally Mart.
Just enough Polyfill to take up space you don't need to "pack" the powder down.

With the foam or Polyfill all you are trying to do is keep the powder up against the primer and fill the air space left by the powder. Once this is done, RL-15 or Norma 203B will give you very consistent velocities.

I order my Norma 203B from Grafs

quote:

Originally posted by malek:

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:

quote:

Originally posted by malek:
Thanks Mac; Wow 2260f/s is fast any pressure signs with the 500 CEB load? I have some Hornady 500 DGS at hand do you think that they can be substituted for the woodys with the same loads?

No you need to remember that these are low pressure rounds. You are not going to see the normal primer flattening etc. I believe the 88b action to be strong enough as they are made for much higher pressure rounds than the 470. Cases eject well and there is no sticking.

Don't miss understand me, the reason among many that I leaned toward getting the 470NE verses the 500NE is that you can push it a bit faster, thus enhancing the penetration without raising much the pressure.

I was thinking more about stiffness in opening the action or a bit sticky ejection of rounds.


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best

What do you mean you can push the 470NE faster than the 500NE? I've never heard of that. To my knowledge, both are typically regulated to the standard velocity of 2150fps.

If you are looking to push a large caliber bullet faster then you don't need a double rifle. It is not about how fast. It all about regulation.

At the ranges intended for 470s and 500s it's about hitting the same POI with both barrels.

If you want to push a big bullet faster, get a 404 Jeffery. Now there is a round that you can load up to kill on both ends!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by malek:

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:

quote:

Originally posted by malek:
Thanks Mac; Wow 2260f/s is fast any pressure signs with the 500 CEB load? I have some Hornady 500 DGS at hand do you think that they can be substituted for the woodys with the same loads?

No you need to remember that these are low pressure rounds. You are not going to see the normal primer flattening etc. I believe the 88b action to be strong enough as they are made for much higher pressure rounds than the 470. Cases eject well and there is no sticking.

Don't miss understand me, the reason among many that I leaned toward getting the 470NE verses the 500NE is that you can push it a bit faster, thus enhancing the penetration without raising much the pressure.

I was thinking more about stiffness in opening the action or a bit sticky ejection of rounds.


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best

What do you mean you can push the 470NE faster than the 500NE? I've never heard of that. To my knowledge, both are typically regulated to the standard velocity of 2150fps.

I stated "The reason among many “in my previous post.

Many individuals have posted in the past that the Federal ammo in their doubles were clocking around 2200f/s and regulating well in their rifles even when their rifles were not regulated for that specific ammo to start with.
So commercially you are going to be able to buy ammo that is around 50 to 100f/s faster than the 500 commercially sold ammo. That is a very good increase in velocity.

Also when hand loading you can load the 470 to the thresh hold of 2200f/s and stay within normal pressure.

Makay reported on this thread that he was getting 2260f/s with the CEB and it regulated well in his rifle. If I recall correctly you reported that you were also getting a good 100f/s increase, with the CEB and with that your velocity was around 2150f/s.

Again all of this depends on the individual rifle and if it will regulate well with the higher velocity, mine seems to be ok with the higher velocity.



Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best

The 500NE is throwing a 570 grain bullet rather than a 500 grain. I think with the same weight bullet you could get a 500 going faster than a 470 with normal pressures. I've gotten a 570 grain out of a 500 with 24 inch barrels up to 2190 fps with a safe load. But as someone said you need to find a load that regulates properly and not worry too much about velocity. Most doubles do regulate better when the load is faster than what it was regulated for. Not always the case though some may cross at higher velocity. The proper bullet means more than how fast it is going.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
If you are looking to push a large caliber bullet faster then you don't need a double rifle. It is not about how fast. It all about regulation.

At the ranges intended for 470s and 500s it's about hitting the same POI with both barrels.

If you want to push a big bullet faster, get a 404 Jeffery. Now there is a round that you can load up to kill on both ends!

Rusty; you are very right, but if your rifle will regulate well with the higher velocity and within acceptable pressure why not, after all 50 to 100f/s more under a 500g bullet is a welcomed increase, at least for me.

Indecently you seem to know a bit about the Norma powders. Do you happen to know what Norma's NURP equivalent too in the Reloaded family, could it be the RL22!!.


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
The 500NE is throwing a 570 grain bullet rather than a 500 grain. I think with the same weight bullet you could get a 500 going faster than a 470 with normal pressures. I've gotten a 570 grain out of a 500 with 24 inch barrels up to 2190 fps with a safe load. But as someone said you need to find a load that regulates properly and not worry too much about velocity. Most doubles do regulate better when the load is faster than what it was regulated for. Not always the case though some may cross at higher velocity. The proper bullet means more than how fast it is going.

Sam; you are right too. it seems that we posted around the same time and you did not read my reply to Rusty.

Again a 40f/s is a good increase, all is hinging on if the individual rifle will regulate well.



Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best

Sam and Rusty are spot on. It's more about regulation than velocity with doubles. But Malek, I understand what you are saying; if you can get an extra 50 to 100fps and still regulate, it's good. When I asked the question, I was thinking maybe you were shooting the 470 in some type of falling block single shot and had found some ability to increase it's velocity beyond what could also be achieved with a 500 in the same type of weapon. Sticking with doubles however, unless one of Bailey's falling block guns, their velocity limitations would be identical for all practical purposes.

I just don't know of any measure by which you can improve the 470 without the ability to do the same with the 500. The 500 is just the better round. More bullet weight, larger frontal area, same recoil, same weight rifle, etc. I like to think of the two as analogous to the 375 and 416. The 416's (500NE) will do everything the 375 (470) will do, but with more authority. Except that in the case of the 500 vs 470, the increase in recoil is negligible.

Personally, from my experience with both on elephant and buffalo, I think the 500 gives up nothing to the 577 in terms of performance. However, the 500 is a step up in performance over the 470 that is quite noticeable.

Speaking of RL-15 however guys, are any of you having any luck finding it on the shelves lately. I can't find any at all. I'm getting low on my last 1lb canister. I've looked 8 places this past week and no one has any. I'd really like to find two 5lb canisters.

I didn't realize that RL15 was so temperamental. I use it exclusively in my large bolt guns - 458 Lott, 416 Rem and 375 H&H. Presumably the variances will be less significant with those guns than the double. Anyone have any thoughts on that?

I use 101 grains of IMR4831 in my .470. I tried as hot as 106 but it wouldn't regulate there.

I got my Blaser to regulate at 50 meters without a scope with 87 grains of Reloder 15 and 5 grains of Dacron filler. I got tired of screwing around with the filler so I also switched to IMR 4831. It worked very well.

Malek, what gun are you using. All the modern 470s (except mine) seem to be regulated at 2150 fps from a 24 inch barrel. Mine was regulated with Kynoch ammo which is not as hot. It regulated closer to 2020 fps. I tried shooting some Hornady ammo and it must have been running quite a bit faster because it just would not regulate in my gun.

Bwana, my gun was like yours. It regulated perfectly with 100-101 grains of IMR 4831. That load pretty much duplicates the original cordite load.

quote:

The 500 is just the better round. More bullet weight, larger frontal area, same recoil, same weight rifle, etc. I like to think of the two as analogous to the 375 and 416. The 416's (500NE) will do everything the 375 (470) will do, but with more authority. Except that in the case of the 500 vs 470, the increase in recoil is negligible.

Personally, from my experience with both on elephant and buffalo, I think the 500 gives up nothing to the 577 in terms of performance. However, the 500 is a step up in performance over the 470 that is quite noticeable.

Todd: as you see Rusty and Sam and you for that matter had no argument from me regarding regulation etc.

On the other hand I happen to hold a different opinion than yours when it comes to 500 verses 470. I agree with you from the point that the 500 will hold a little edge if both rifles weight is the same and drove the bullets at the same speed, except for the recoil factor.

my rifle weighs 10LB, taking that as the thresh hold weight for both 470 and 500 rifles and having both of them driving their bullets at 2150f/s. with RL 19 (109 g for the 470 and 113 g for the 500) under the same style bullet in order to achieve aproximently the 2150f/s desired velocity with the same pressure level, out of a 26" barrel. Edge goes to the 470 24” faster with 1500 PSI less pressure (Any Shot You Want) negligible but still there.

We find out that the Recoil Energy for the 470 NE is 69 f-lb and Recoil Velocity is 21 f/s. On the other hand The Recoil Energy for the 500 NE is 86 f-lb and Recoil Velocity is 23 f/s. That is a whopping 17 lb-s increase in Recoil Energy, which boils down to 20% increase. This is quite a bit of increase over the 470.

Now to compare the difference between the 470 and 500 to that of the 375 and 416 I don’t think it is as one would think it to be. Otherwise and with all due respect to your opinion/experience your comparison for the difference between the 577 and 500 is way off.
The difference in caliber between the 577 .585” and that of the 500 .510” is .075” vs the difference between the 500 and that of the 470 which is .035”. That is more than twice the difference between the 470 and 500. Why is it then you ” think that the 500 gives up nothing to the 577 in terms of performance. However, the 500 is a step up in performance over the 470 that is quite noticeable”






Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best

quote:

Originally posted by malek:

quote:

The 500 is just the better round. More bullet weight, larger frontal area, same recoil, same weight rifle, etc. I like to think of the two as analogous to the 375 and 416. The 416's (500NE) will do everything the 375 (470) will do, but with more authority. Except that in the case of the 500 vs 470, the increase in recoil is negligible.

Personally, from my experience with both on elephant and buffalo, I think the 500 gives up nothing to the 577 in terms of performance. However, the 500 is a step up in performance over the 470 that is quite noticeable.

Todd: as you see Rusty and Sam and you for that matter had no argument with me regarding regulation etc.

On the other hand I happen to hold a different opinion than yours when it comes to 500 verses 470. I agree with you from the point that the 500 will hold a little edge if both rifles weight the same and drove the bullets at the same speed, except for the recoil factor.

my rifle weighs 10LB, taking that as the thresh hold weight for both 470 and 500 rifles and having both of them driving their bullets at 2150f/s. with RL 19 (109 g for the 470 and 113 g for the 500) under the same style bullet in order to achieve aproximently the 2150f/s desired velocity with the same pressure level, out of a 26" barrel. Edge goes to the 470 24” faster with 1500 PSI less pressure (Any Shot You Want) negligible but still there.

We find out that the Recoil Energy for the 470 NE is 69 f-lb and Recoil Velocity is 21 f/s. On the other hand The Recoil Energy for the 500 NE is 86 f-lb and Recoil Velocity is 23 f/s. That is a whopping 17 lb-s increase in Recoil Energy, which boils down to 20% increase. This is quite a bit of increase over the 470.

Now to compare the difference between the 470 and 500 to that of the 375 and 416 I don’t think it is as one would think it to be. Otherwise and with all due respect to your opinion your comparison for the difference between the 577 and 500 is way off.
The difference in caliber between the 577 .585” and that of the 500 .510” is .075” vs the difference between the 500 and that of the 470 which is .035”. That is more than twice the difference between the 470 and 500. Why is it then you ” think that the 500 gives up nothing to the 577 in terms of performance. However, the 500 is a step up in performance over the 470 that is quite noticeable”






Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best

With all due respect as well, I've posted recoil numbers in the past showing the free recoil difference between the 470 and 500 to be roughly the equivalent of 1/2 of the 243 Win or about 7 ft/lbs IIRC. That's just not "whopping" to me. Dave Bush had the same concerns but ask him about it now that he traded his 470 for the 500. It might be a little more recoil, but it's just not a lot. It's an old argument and if you want to find those numbers, look up some of my old posts. They were derived form Charlie Hawks figures. But if you feel the difference is there then that is your perception and who am I to say otherwise. Simply put, I don't see a noticeable difference.

You've taken my comments on the 577 and 500 out of context. There is certainly a difference in the raw numbers between the two calibers in terms of energy, frontal area, and the like. My statement, if you read it literally, is that from my experience in the field, from actually shooting elephant with the 577 and with the 500 and from shooting buffalo with the 577 and 500, there is no noticeable difference in the reactions of the animals when hit with that 750gr bullet or the 570gr bullet. IMO, and this is borne out by several others that I have personally spoken with, including the PH I hunted with and shot said buffalo and elephant, the two calibers produce basically the same reaction on large game. On this past safari from October, the PH, the cameraman (who has filmed many of these hunts), and I discussed at length our surprise in that the 577 just didn't seem to do anymore than the 500. I think it would be very easy to find references throughout Africana writings to the same conclusions. However, we all agreed that the difference in reaction of animals hit similarly with the 470 and 500 is quite noticeable. Noticeable in extent about the same as the difference between shooting a buff with a 375 and a 416. They both do the job, but the 416 just does it with more authority.

If you want to talk numbers out of a book comparing the theoretical virtues of the 470, 500, and 577, that is one thing. Their actual performance on live animals is another altogether. Simply put, the 470 can't do anything the 500 can't do. And everything the 470 can do, the 500 can do but with more authority. When it comes to the 577 over the 500, it seems there is a definite line of diminishing returns where recoil increases (but not really that much since the weapon's weight is heavier), weight of the rifle goes up, weight of the ammo to be carried goes up, but performance is about the same. From that standpoint, IMO, the 500 gives up nothing to the 577.

Again, all of this is just campfire talk. The type of campfire discussions that have been ongoing for a century or more at this point and the end of the discussion is nowhere on the horizon as of yet. I suppose once we establish the merits of 470 vs 500, we can then start in on ejectors vs extractors. Then doubles vs bolts!

Cheers.

quote:

:
Malek, what gun are you using. All the modern 470s (except mine) seem to be regulated at 2150 fps from a 24 inch barrel. Mine was regulated with Kynoch ammo which is not as hot. It regulated closer to 2020 fps. I tried shooting some Hornady ammo and it must have been running quite a bit faster because it just would not regulate in my gun.

Hi Dave:

Mine is a Sabatti, it shoots with the same ammo that it was regulated with the Hornady 500 DGS, matching exactly the target that was supplied with it with an extra little spread. The target had 2" at 50M snakes eyes with the right rising a bit more, as if the snake was raising its right eye brow a bit. Right shot to the right and left to the left mine was more like 3" everything else was the same. Figured with a little added velocity the size could shrink a bit more and that is what happened.

With 106g of IMR 4831 the size shrunk down to 2 3/4” for 4 rounds. I believe it could have been better but after 20 rounds and shooting the screan rod on my chronograph, I was not shooting that sturdy any more. I did not have a chance to chronograph that load but I got 2078f/s from the 103g one.


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best

Hey Todd would you throw couple of logs on that fire it is getting a bit chilly.

In my calculation I tried to compare apples to apples that is why I used the same weight rifle, same velocity same bullet style from same manufacture, same powder and same pressure. in order to stay as objective as possible. Also I did use couple of Internet calculators to derive my numbers from.

http://www.huntamerica.com/recoil_calculator/

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

Both of them gave almost the same results, a difference of 17 f-lb of recoil energy between the two.

But if you chose to believe Charlie Hawks that is your choice, who am I to tell different.

Now if we are talking felt recoil that is all together a completely different ball game. Rifle fit, weight, stock shape, ones age, physical abilities muscle tone etc. all come to play and thus influence the felt recoil perception.

Todd my experience in African hunting is no way close to yours, in matter of fact it is nil ( haven’t been to Africa hunting yet) so I don’t doubt what you are saying or any of your experiences or what those guides are reporting. But I have done quite a bit of reading and quite a bit of NA BG hunting. To me dead is dead you can’t kill an animal any deader than dead. I happen to believe that the 470 will kill any animal that walks the face of this earth and have some energy to spear.
It is All dependent on shot placement, and if you are comfortable with the rifle/cartridge you are shooting or not. To me it boils down that the 470 recoil level is my comfort zone a bit more I would not feel comfortable any more. I like to take my rifle to the range and shoot 20, 30 rounds without being rattled and end up with a splitting head ach by the end of the day. Probably when I was 50 I would not have minded it at all, I would probably bought me a 500 or a 577 for that matter. I was glutton for punishment back then. Trained hard broke wood with my bear hands/feet put on my boxing gloves and got down into the ring. Heck I used to bench my 458 Win Mag and think nothing of it. Well now 7 years later the most I will bench is my 450-400 with the help of the sissy pad (Past recoil pad). I feel like I mellowed down quite a bit and rather than punching and breaking wood I like to punch the keys on my key pad, enjoy a glass of good wine and once a while a good Cuban and hear couple of campfire stories.

Time to stock that fire.

Cheers



Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best

Hey Malek,

Sorry if I came off cold. Not my intent al all. Sorry for that if it's the way you took it.

For me, and the way I perceive recoil, there just isn't any difference in the 470 and 500. Others disagree. No big deal. We all use what is comfortable to us personally as it's our money and we deserve to be able to choose. No problem my friend.

No doubt about the 470 handling all the critters as well. Same with a 375. However, with dangerous game, and all dangerous game is not the same, just killing the beast is not the entire equation. Example, a brown bear is much easier to anchor than a cape buffalo. For that matter, an elephant is much easier to anchor or at least turn than a cape buffalo. Lion, leopard, very soft in skin and constitution, except possibly in the case of wounded lion!! Yikes!!

Also, and probably more dramatically, the differences in where, when, and how buffalo and elephant are taken on, certainly change the dynamics. For example, an elephant bull in the open, shot at 50 yards is a completely different situation than taking on tuskless, likely to be in a herd of cheeky cows, in the early season jesse where visibility is nil and the likelihood of defensive shooting inside of 10 yards is high! In those conditions, I want the biggest hammer possible. However, it seems that for the critters that are currently roaming the earth, or at least until the scientist bring back a huntable population of T-Rex, there seems to be a line of diminishing returns at the 500NE level of performance in double rifles.

Think in terms of smaller game and the effect of larger and larger rifles. A 22LR will stop a charging fox squirrel in it's tracks quite convincingly. So will a 30/30 but for the size and constitution of a charging fox squirrel, the 30/30 doesn't give you anything more than did the 22LR. A 500NE gives that 22LR on charging squirrels performance with elephant and buffalo. The 577 does too, but you already have that with the 500. It just becomes more weight and recoil. Different story with the 470 and 500. The rifle weighs the same, the ammo weighs the same, the recoil is the same (all roughly speaking of course), so going to the larger weapon in that case doesn't cost you anything in terms of additional physical requirements and exertion in the same way that the 577 does. If you're happy with the way the 470 performs, that's cool as well. Many folks are. Just like many are just as happy as they can be to carry and use a 375. It's a fine weapon but the 416 doesn't really cost anything more, does the same job, but with more authority. Jumping up to a 505 Gibbs is a different story. Heavier rifle, heavier ammo, heavier recoil.

Remember, we got on this discussion in the first place from your comment about running the 470 hotter than the 500NE which implied that the 470 outperforms the 500. I had never heard that before and was just asking you to clarify. On the issue of increased recoil between the two, I would think that an increase of 100fps in that 500gr .474 bullet that you were inferring with your post would all but close that small recoil gap. So really, I was just seeking clarification of your point.

Seriously my friend, just debating the topics. Not looking for a

Cheers!

quote:

with all due respect to your opinion/experience your comparison for the difference between the 577 and 500 is way off.
The difference in caliber between the 577 .585” and that of the 500 .510” is .075” vs the difference between the 500 and that of the 470 which is .035”. That is more than twice the difference between the 470 and 500. Why is it then you ”think that the 500 gives up nothing to the 577 in terms of performance. However, the 500 is a step up in performance over the 470 that is quite noticeable”

I was thinking the same thing reading through these posts .... Both the 500 and the 470 are great calibers - thanks for all the posts, I enjoyed the thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Hey Malek,

Sorry if I came off cold. Not my intent al all. Sorry for that if it's the way you took it.

For me, and the way I perceive recoil, there just isn't any difference in the 470 and 500. Others disagree. No big deal. We all use what is comfortable to us personally as it's our money and we deserve to be able to choose. No problem my friend.

No doubt about the 470 handling all the critters as well. Same with a 375. However, with dangerous game, and all dangerous game is not the same, just killing the beast is not the entire equation. Example, a brown bear is much easier to anchor than a cape buffalo. For that matter, an elephant is much easier to anchor or at least turn than a cape buffalo. Lion, leopard, very soft in skin and constitution, except possibly in the case of wounded lion!! Yikes!!

Also, and probably more dramatically, the differences in where, when, and how buffalo and elephant are taken on, certainly change the dynamics. For example, an elephant bull in the open, shot at 50 yards is a completely different situation than taking on tuskless, likely to be in a herd of cheeky cows, in the early season jesse where visibility is nil and the likelihood of defensive shooting inside of 10 yards is high! In those conditions, I want the biggest hammer possible. However, it seems that for the critters that are currently roaming the earth, or at least until the scientist bring back a huntable population of T-Rex, there seems to be a line of diminishing returns at the 500NE level of performance in double rifles.

Think in terms of smaller game and the effect of larger and larger rifles. A 22LR will stop a charging fox squirrel in it's tracks quite convincingly. So will a 30/30 but for the size and constitution of a charging fox squirrel, the 30/30 doesn't give you anything more than did the 22LR. A 500NE gives that 22LR on charging squirrels performance with elephant and buffalo. The 577 does too, but you already have that with the 500. It just becomes more weight and recoil. Different story with the 470 and 500. The rifle weighs the same, the ammo weighs the same, the recoil is the same (all roughly speaking of course), so going to the larger weapon in that case doesn't cost you anything in terms of additional physical requirements and exertion in the same way that the 577 does. If you're happy with the way the 470 performs, that's cool as well. Many folks are. Just like many are just as happy as they can be to carry and use a 375. It's a fine weapon but the 416 doesn't really cost anything more, does the same job, but with more authority. Jumping up to a 505 Gibbs is a different story. Heavier rifle, heavier ammo, heavier recoil.

Remember, we got on this discussion in the first place from your comment about running the 470 hotter than the 500NE which implied that the 470 outperforms the 500. I had never heard that before and was just asking you to clarify. On the issue of increased recoil between the two, I would think that an increase of 100fps in that 500gr .474 bullet that you were inferring with your post would all but close that small recoil gap. So really, I was just seeking clarification of your point.

Seriously my friend, just debating the topics. Not looking for a

Cheers!

Don't you worry my friend no Harm was done. It is good campfire discussion.

Regarding the original question, as I pointed in a previous post and according to what Mckay’s results. A 500,g .474 bullet traveling at a 2160f/s is an awesome power for an elephant, rhino or a buffalo to reckon with. considering the load he used of 500g CEB bullet atop of 93g of RL 15 using the recoil energy calculator it boils down to only 70 f-lb of RE with 21 ft-s RV. Now that is an increase of only 1f-lb of RE and the same RV as the load previously mentioned with the original comparison which was 69f-lb of RE and 21f-s RV for the 470 and 86f-lb RE, 27f-s RV for the 500. Still the RE of the 470 is 16f-lb less, and the RV 6f-s less. now I don't believe numbers would lie. Again the felt recoil is a different story.

Now all of this is hinging of course on the rifle regulating that load or not, yet to be seen, I will be carefully building up towered that. I already loaded some with 86 and 88g of RL 15.

Back to the stopping power and tight quarters encounters with the deadliest animals on the planet.

I can't help but recall the 3 stories that Taylor was sitting in his argument defending the 450-400 NE 3" Jeffry cartridge. Which incidentally I happen to believe that it is an anemic cartridge with its mere 2030 f/s and 3661 F/lb out of my rifle.

I am going to summaries for the sake of space.

the first two were him encountering elephants in one incidents 2 elephants and in the other 3 elephants were dispatched.

the first one when he shot one elephant and the second one a monster was deliberately trying to pick his sent in order to kill him and he shot him while in mid of a charge at merely 20 yards. He reports that this was not a dense place.

but then he reports another incident of him following "three mighty bulls into a hideous tangle of bush" He shot one of them and the other 2 came down rushing at him and were practically on top of him. He slammed a bullet in the face of the first bull dropping him to his haunches then shot the second one above his eye (not braining them) but dropping them. He reloaded and shot them as they scrambled to their feet again Right and left, each with a bullet to the head which ended their fight.

now that is a scenario where things got as bad as it can get yet that 400g bullet at a mere 2050f/s done the job with flying colors.

then the third one of him killing a charging lioness at a mere 6" from him in the matteti entanglement after killing another 2 lions with 2 rounds left and right.

He was reprimanding so to speak the crowed of "those men were staunch upholders of nothing smaller than .450. But to speak like that is merely to expose one's ignorance and lack of experience". I guess I am one of them.

Again I believe that one should shoot the rifle that he/she is the most confident with. No matter what caliber it is, of course within reason and adhering to regulations.

My friend I am glad that we can exchange these stories and opinions. The only harm it can do is to help us learn a bit more.

Cheers:

Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

quote:

Originally posted by malek:
now I don't believe numbers would lie.

Hmmm ... well, I'm not too sure about that one. What's the old saying, numbers can be made to say anything you want them to say, or something to that effect?

Still, I personally can't tell the difference in recoil between the two rifles to any discernible amount. Some guys say they can. There is no doubt that both calibers produce a noticeable push. But stepping up to the 577, you can tell the difference. Carrying the weight of the 470 or 500 all day, along with it's ammo, I can't tell the difference. Stepping up to the 577, I can. So from that standpoint, if weight of the weapon, weight of the ammo, and perceived recoil is the same, why choose the lesser of the two guns? Then after the choice is made for the lesser of the two, why state that the lesser was chosen so that you can hop it up faster than the larger of the two? (that being your statement that caused me to ask the question in the first place). Which I had never heard of anywhere by anyone so I was just trying to clarify your statement. If the 470 is adequate, which of course it is, why the need for +P performance? If +P performance was desired, why not just go to the better choice in the first place? And round and round the question goes! It just seems to be contradictory to me!

Of course the answer to "why" above for the most part is that historically, the 470 was and probably still is, the most popular double cartridge and ammo availability was better. In fact, at one point in the late 80's, it was about the only caliber one could find factory ammo for in regards to big bore double rifles. However, in the past few years, the 500NE has made serious inroads to that claim. It would be interesting to see what the exact sales figures are of new guns today between the two calibers since 500NE ammo and / or components is no longer any more difficult to obtain than the 470. Just 5 or 6 years ago, you would hear statements such as the 470 will give the best resale value due to it's popularity. I would reluctantly challenge that statement today compared to the 500 and I think going forward, it will be a safe bet that the 500 will reign supreme in resale value.

If we are to quote some of the more experienced big game hunters of past, I would take a lot of Taylor's comments with a grain of salt. After all, it was he who spoke of knocking an elephant out for 20 to 30 minutes. I haven't personally seen that but what I have seen is the ability to knock them down and out long enough to put in a finishing shot. No doubt that Taylor exaggerated on occasion. But other hunters from his era and beyond have provided some good insight as well. J.A. Hunter favored the 500NE for one. I don't know if you've watched Buzz's first DVD, "Hunting the African Elephant" (BTW, far and away the best ele hunting instructional video ever produced) but in it he interviews Stan Cenegren (sp) about taking on the big boys in the jesse. Stan states that he learned the 470 was fine for small bulls and cows but he felt undergunned on large bulls. Therefore he went to the 577 but found that after a few shots, he developed a flinch and decided it was too much for what it gave you. He later settled on the 500NE and said that he felt perfectly safe with that weapon in hand under all circumstances.

Those statements go along with my comments earlier and one doesn't have to look to far to find other supporting evidence of the same in regards to the 450-470 class cartridges and the 500, as well as the diminishing returns achieved with the ultra bores. Here are two quotes from the Barnes Reloading Manual #4 for an example.

From the 470NE: "The personal choice of many Professional Hunters and dangerous-game-savvy sportsmen, the 470NE has proven itself time and time again". No denying that the 470 is a fine DG weapon (my comment).

From the 500NE: "The 500 is arguably the heaviest double rifle cartridge a non-professional hunter can handle well. ... Cape buffalo that show little discernable response to .416, .458 or even .474-inch-diameter bullets buckle and stagger when well hit with a 500 Nitro Express".

I would have to say that I concur with both of those quotes with one exception. The part about the 500 being the heaviest a non-professional can handle being tempered with my opinion that it isn't the "professional hunter" part of that statement that applies as much as it is about how much time on the trigger a person is willing to expend learning to handle the ultra bores. There are quite a few fellows here who are very proficient with the 577 and 600 alike.

Anyway Malek, I'm sure that should we ever share a DG hunting camp together, we will be able to keep the conversation around the fire from stalling and turning to topics such as the weather!

Cheers.

Hey guys, BTW, back to the OP and RL-15 in the 470, does anyone know where there is ANY RL-15 available? I'm down to 1/2 lb and can't find any at all. I'd like to find a couple of 5lb canisters if available.

What say you guys?

Todd; try Powder Valley

Good source Jorge and thanks for the info but they are currently out as well. I'll certainly keep them on file however for future reference.

I use 88 gr Rel 15 with 500 gr Woodleigh Soft Points, Fed 215 Primers, and Kynoch plugs in my K gun. Averages 2120 fps.

Use 87.5 gr Rel 15 with Woodleigh Solids.