Rick,

Check your PMs.

I'm just still thinking the difference between a 470 and 500 is so small in both ends that it's pretty insignificant. That's why I'm getting a 577 next.

Great shooting on that elephant btw!

Really quick 2nd shot. Don't think i would have done it better or as good... Impressive!

I have however competed in IPSC shooting for many years (national level) and I know recoil does slow down accurate fire-rate.

quote:

Originally posted by Norsk:
I'm just still thinking the difference between a 470 and 500 is so small in both ends that it's pretty insignificant. That's why I'm getting a 577 next.

Great shooting on that elephant btw!

Really quick 2nd shot. Don't think i would have done it better or as good... Impressive!

I have however competed in IPSC shooting for many years (national level) and I know recoil does slow down accurate fire-rate.

You will love that 577. Really a manageable rifle in terms of recoil. Just a bit heavy to carry all day. But mucho fun to hunt with.

Thanks for the kind words.

Of course, excess recoil will affect accurate fire-rate but then in the DG with DR scenarios, we are typically talking about relatively close quarters shooting of two shots, not a sustained rate of fire at any appreciable distance. You'll find it very possible to get in two quick, effective shots even with that 577 as well.

Are you having your 577 built or looking for one to purchase. Mine is for sale with Ken at Kebco at this time.

R15 has been VERY hard to locate here in aus lately too !

Will it be available in the long term ?

Is the lack of availability only a short term thing ?

Paul,

Right now, it seems most all components are scarce. I've had to shop 7 or 8 different places, including internet sites, to put together the components to load 3 different calibers; 454 Casull, 357 Mag, and 500NE. I still haven't found primers for the 357 at this time.

To your question on future availability, most of the suppliers I spoke with have no idea when future shipments will be received. Most are not even taking backorders at this time.

Components are becoming like precious metals or gems right now.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by malek:
Hello Todd:

It good to to see you are chiming back on this thread. The reason I did not answer your previous post was that I did not want to entice you in having to answer back and then we have to stock up that fire again.

I have to reply at a latter time though, family is waiting for me Valentines dinner they call it. Oh well happy valentine’s day to all AR members and to those who chimed on this thread.

God bless you and bless your families.

Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

No problem Malek. I really attempted to back out as I kind of sensed confrontation was brewing and I didn't want to be the cause of that. As I said before, there has been no malice intended in any of my posts. I'm just attempting to find the basis for the statements made about the higher velocities in the 470. It is entirely possible that I've missed something and if so, I'd like to know. I try to have informed opinions based on data I can point to and hang a hat on, at least to the extent that is possible. All the best to you and your family in celebrating Valentines Day my friend. We'll talk later.

Hello Todd:

My friend I do hope that I did not sound confrontational at any time it has never been my intention. I was simply enjoying our discussion and learning at the same time.

Thank for taking the time and going through the trouble to down load the reloading data. What I use for the NE cartridges is the A Square reloading manual, Any Shot You Want. I happen to find it one of the most comprehensive reloading manual for the NE cartridges. Some of the data you provided are from that manual; also I use the Hornady one.

So going back to where we left off. First things first, I don't think any where in this thread I did state that the 470 was a better round than the 500. But I did state more than once that the 500 held the edge. Now by how much, well that is debatable. I don't think that it is as much as many people make it sounds to be.
Also I don’t think I was stating that I would want to sop up the 470 as a practice,( rather it came as an added bones using a certain bullet the CEB).That is not what I was talking about and I am sorry if I did not make it very clear or explained it well enough. What I was trying to say is that among many reasons that made me chose the 470 is the ability to purchase ammo in case one needed to do so for some reason or another on a hunting trip. If one can find Federal ammo and his rifle regulates it well it will be a great thing because the federal 470 ammo's actual velocity exceeds the advertised velocities clocking (2200f/s) in most rifles. I am not sure that I find the same scenario for the 500 at least I haven’t seen it written anywhere yet. Of course one can sop up both cartridges if he chooses.

Todd; I don’t believe your first analogy that you have used between the 300 WBY Mag and the 375 HH Mag is a good representation of the difference between the 470 and the 500. I believe that your second analogy between the 338 and 375 will be closer but not exactly a very the best representation for the difference either.

Now for the heck of it, I wanted to find out really what is the difference using the number’s approach. I did use the solid CEB bullet for comparison because we know the meplet diameter for this bullet. I did use the meplet diameter rather than the full caliber of the bullet, because it is the point of contact that causes the shock effect and creates a hydrostatic flow around the bullet in where the its shank is simply sailing through a vacuum, not touching any of the surrounding tissues. I came up with these interesting figures.

We know that the meplet of the CEB bullet is 67 percent of the caliber. So the meplet of the 500 = .35"and that of the 470 = .32", a difference of only .03”

Now using a velocity of 2150f/s for both cartridges and the relevant bullet weight for each cartridge and applying it to the Taylor’s KO formula which many believe it to be the closest thing to calculate the knock down power of a cartridge, I did end up with these numbers.
The KO of the 500 = 54.5 f-lb and the KO of the 470 = 49.1 f-lb, for a difference of 5.4 f-lb which boils down to exactly 10 percent more in favor of the 500.
If we use the 2250f/s velocity for the 470 we will end up with 51.4 f-lb which is only a 3.1 f-lb difference or just a tad under 6 percent more knocking power in favor of the 500.

So the edge is there for the 500 as I mentioned in my previous posts but now we have it in exact numbers and percentage. I reality I don’t think I would like to subject myself to 20 percent more recoil in order to gain 6 percent in shock KO power on the target.

Cheers




Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

quote:

Originally posted by Norsk:
Sorry my miss. 20%.

On another note. With 20% increase in recoil, how does this affect the speed of the follow up shot? We are all built differently and have differnt levels of recoil managing techniques, but on average, would think the speed of the second shot will be slower for the 500. It is hard to say what is more advantagous, 20% more momentum and around 5% increased bullet diameter vs a faster second shot...

Anyway. With regards to loads. I have found the following:

Krieghoff, 23 inch barrels
(at minus 20 degrees celcius)
500gr Woodleigh SP
112gr Norma MRP = 2120 fps
105gr Norma 204 = 2020 fps

I was recently reccomended 226gr H1000. A guy says it regulates (krieghoff) and gives 2100fps.

I have tried to avoid fillers (never used it before) and have thought filling the case as much as possible would be advantagous. I am open to suggestions though.

Norsk:

The Norma MRP seems to be spot on was it the load that you did all the fantastic shooting with, reported in a different thread I must look it up again. Do you find it temperature sensitive, I wonder what velocities/pressure you will get in tropical weather using the MRP load? How well does it regulate in your rifle.



I sure hope you meant to write 126gr rather than 226 for the H1000. I do hope you don’t load 226 and I don't think you could even if you tried.



Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

Malek,

I think the discussion is winding down a bit at this point. Please realize, the 300Wby / 375H&H comparison was simply to show that numbers do not tell the entire story as those two calibers produce the same energy for all practical purposes, but the effectiveness of the two on large dangerous game is very different. Similar energy levels but substantially different results on DG! No relevance to the discussion other than to highlight the fact that numbers can be used to reach a conclusion that is not necessarily correct.

The same can be said for both the recoil difference and effective reaction on game animals between the 470 and 500. The numbers simply don't tell the entire story. The best I can offer you is to go to the range with a 470NE and a 500NE, shoot the two rifles back to back, on the same day, wearing the same clothes for padding, same temperature, etc. and then tell me if you think there is a 20% difference in the recoil levels of the two rifles. My bet is that you will say NO. There are some who say they can feel the difference. Some say it is very noticeable. However, more guys that I know who have taken the "Pepsi" challenge, say that it is very close.

The second part of the "Pepsi" challenge is going to be much more difficult in that it really isn't feasible to do a side by side comparison shooting elephant and buffalo. At least, not on a single safari unless you are unusually "blessed" with some serious jack!! Probably the next best thing is to talk to guys who have used both, seen both used extensively such as PHs and even some cameramen. Although both are fully great hammers' of Thor , there really is an edge between the two that outstrips "the numbers". Boddington, J.A. Hunter, Stan the Man, Ian Neychans, and many more have stated as much. One of my PHs I've hunted with more than once, used a 470 and expressed a certain level of dissatisfaction with it to the point that he was willing to make the jump all the way to the 577. He is currently using a 500!

On availability of 470 ammo in overseas stores, yea, it probably is easier to find 470 but I would say that particular issue has been changing over the last 5 years or so and at some point, I would think it will be even money between the two. But, I must say that every PH I've hunted with have stated that should 500NE ammo go for walk-about, it would not be too difficult to find enough to easily complete a safari. But to the factory ammo ballistics, you've got me there. I've shot exactly 7 factory loads in all of my doubles. 7 A-Square Lion Loads waiting on my dies to be delivered when I first got my Merkel 500NE, and I didn't run then through a chrony.

Hello my friend:

I hear you regarding the analogy of the 300 WBY verses the 375HH. about the #s I believe they hold water do they tell us the whole story probably not, never the less they give us some idea.

Regarding some of the people you quoted. I wrote previously about Stan and what he stated and how he would double tap the elephant to the head with his 500 in order to knock him down and then put in the third as a finisher.

Ian Neychans stated he preferred the 450#2 but then he stated if he would do it again he would probably go with the 475#2 for its low pressure or the 500. Well the 475 #2 is a duplicate of the 470NE power wise. Also he mentioned that Buzzes 416 was a class by itself.

Come to Boddingtons he wrote "The ascendancy of the 470 is such that there's no reason to consider a new double in any other caliber. It has become a .470 world... and that is a perfectly fine world to be in".

Taylor wrote " The 470 is a splendidly balanced cartridge in every way. It is a killer _ a real killer. Now I've killed more than a 100 elephants with this cartridge so I guess I can claim to know something about it".

So my friend as you mentioned previously " both are fully great hammers of thor ". You have no argument from me there. I believe I always maintained that the 500 Held the edge so we are talking the same thing here.

On another not I must thank you for providing the link to your elephant hunt. I did enjoy watching it, was that a Tuskless?

If I am not mistaken, you did mention that you have videos of your buffalo hunt too, I would like to watch that too, in matter of fact I am interested in watching any hunting video of yours.

Todd; it has been quite an informative discussion, exchanging thoughts and ideas, I believe that what makes a camp fire discussion very interesting, fun and intriguing.

Best of luck on your future hunts.




Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

Yes i got the sub 2 inch six shot group at 80 yards with 112 grains MRP. Ganyana wrote i should expect no more than 50 fps increase in tropical temperature. 2170 fps sounds good to me. Pressure should not be a problem. We have a lot of room with low pressure rounds like these.

quote:

Originally posted by Norsk:
Yes i got the sub 2 inch six shot group at 80 yards with 112 grains MRP. Ganyana wrote i should expect no more than 50 fps increase in tropical temperature. 2170 fps sounds good to me. Pressure should not be a problem. We have a lot of room with low pressure rounds like these.

Hello Norsk:

2' group at 80ys and clocking at 2170f/s is a fantastic load, I would say load yourself few boxes with the same powder/components and stash it away, because powder lots/components do vary and you might not be able to duplicate the same results with a different lot.


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

quote:

Originally posted by Norsk:
That's why I'm getting a 577 next.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by malek:
Hello my friend:



Here we have a very well known guide, Buzz where the lives of many people hinge on his and his rifle's performance and yet he uses the 416 magnum. I guess he ought to know better and use a 500.



On another not I must thank you for providing the link to your elephant hunt. I did enjoy watching it, was that a Tuskless?

If I am not mistaken, you did mention that you have videos of your buffalo hunt too, I would like to watch that too, in matter of fact I am interested in watching any hunting video of yours.

Todd; it has been quite an informative discussion, exchanging thoughts and ideas, I believe that what makes a camp fire discussion very interesting, fun and intriguing.

Best of luck on your future hunts.




Best regards


Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

Malek,

This one is going to hurt, but your comment about Buzz needs to be looked at again. I've hunted with Buzz's company 3 times over the last 2 & 1/2 years. He ditched the 416R and is now safely in the 500NE fold. He ordered a 500NE Heym several years ago as he was ready to make the switch but had issues getting it imported into the country. I'm thinking he must be one of those PH fellows I was talking about who have been on numerous hunts with 470s and 500s and made the appropriate choice!!

But yeah, he is using a 500NE now!! Check it out: http://www.cmsafaris.com/troph...uzz/nagell-hot-l.jpg

If you're really interested in the other videos, most have been posted here on AR. There is another tuskless from 2011 with the 500NE, then a buffalo with the 577NE from this past October titled "Buffalo in the Jesse", and a lion from this past October taken with a 9.3X74R double. There is also a leopard and warthog to be found if you dig for them a bit. Let me know if you can't find them and I'll link you to them at that point.

Cheers.

Hell o everybody:

Now Back to RL 15. I did load up some ammo with 86gr and some with 88gr under a 1/2 Backer Rod with it being compressed about 1/8". I was hoping to get around 2100f/s like others have reporting of getting on this thread. To my surprise I only got around 1950f/s with the 88gr load. Also to my surprise it shot good too.

Now I tried my other load of IMR 4831 106gr and it clocked at 2162f/s. So the IMR 4831 load is spot on but and I believe that the Rl 15 is spot on according to Hornadys manual but not according to some reports on this thread. I wonder is there that much of a variation between the lots of RL 15!!! Humm.


I know some of you had experience variation between lots, but this seems quite a bit. Anybody had experienced that much of variation?



Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best

Then you have People like Ganyana and Saed who argue for penetration being the important factor and relying on .375 to 416 Caliber. They have tons of experience....

So to me it is a pretty strange discussion what is better .470 or .500 since it is an almost identical round. First one has to settle the argument of the medium bores vs big bores....

I guess it's too late to ask the question. . .Is this a short discussion?

Placing the bullet in the proper place is number one but penetration is also important making it a double edged sword. Really without both one may find themselves in the very deep dark quickly.

Missing a vital spot may end up with the shooter being toast quickly if your back up also has a bad day at the office.

Many of us have had good bad and horrible days but as a rule it is practice and safe gun handling that gets us through. Be it a .375, .416, .458 or any af the DR's and you can make it work every time then be happy. It comes down to beware of the guy who comes to play with one gun and knows how to use it. It to me would be equally a pleasure to stand next to Saeed with the .375, Taylor with a .470, Williams with a .500 or Bell with a 7X57. The horrible thing is if one cannot handle the toy of their choice, or is bouncing about in the bush practicing un-safe gun handling with a finger on the trigger resulting in someone being shot there is NO excuse for that.

However since this all began over RL15 powder, if someone is in need we can be of assistance.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
I guess it's too late to ask the question. . .Is this a short discussion?

Hey Rusty; I guess you are write this has not been a short discussion at all, yet there has been a lot of good info exchange.

Norsk and GOB has some valid points too regarding penetration and shot placement. But I think here we are discussing two cartridges (500 and 470) with the same penetrating abilities. Which bring us back to what I have said and maintained all along that taking all things in consideration. One has to choose the rifle/caliber that he is comfortable shooting and able to place his shots under stress in a hurry and in the right place, that is within reason of course. A person can't take a 300 WBY or a 338 Mag out hunting buffalo and elephant, just because he is comfortable with it and shoots it very well. On the other hand if one is not comfortable shooting his 500 or 470 rifle and can’t shoot it well and will develop a flinch every time he shoots it that will be a disaster in the making if he goes after them critters that bites/stamps or gourde.

So he might be better off picking him a less recoiling rifle, say 375 or 450-400 and get proficient with it and then go hunting them beasts. Even though some might believes that they are a little on the light side which I happen to be one of them, again that is a different discussion for a different time.


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

I love my 450/400 3 inch. Just the right size and recoil for me. There are lots of great calibers out there. Shot placement is paramount, so get the chambering you like.
I personally hate the 500 NE. It beats me up. Now, having said that, my all time favorite big bore double is a W.J. Jeffery Chambered in 475 #2 Jeffery. It is just on the cusp of what I can deal with in recoil and one hell of killer round!
Now these are just my opines. A person looking for a double ought to find the rifle that suits him. That makes it the best double out there! The only important item is that you get to own, shoot and hunt with a double rifle!

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
I love my 450/400 3 inch. Just the right size and recoil for me. There are lots of great calibers out there. Shot placement is paramount, so get the chambering you like.
I personally hate the 500 NE. It beats me up. Now, having said that, my all time favorite big bore double is a W.J. Jeffery Chambered in 475 #2 Jeffery. It is just on the cusp of what I can deal with in recoil and one hell of killer round!
Now these are just my opines. A person looking for a double ought to find the rifle that suits him. That makes it the best double out there! The only important item is that you get to own, shoot and hunt with a double rifle!

Rusty; please don't misunderstand me, I love the way the 450-400 recoils and the gentile tap that it gives you is quite pleasant. With the velocities that I did obtain out of my Sabatti {2035f/s} and 1950f/s out of my Ruger #1. I do think that it is a bit on the anemic and wished if it displayed the original full advertized velocity of 2125f/s, I know those velocities were obtained with longer barrels but never the less it is still a great cartridge.

At the present time I am playing around with a new cartridge that I have designed, hoping to achieve with it some very good increase in velocity while keeping the recoil at a very manageable level.

That 475#2 is quite an imposing cartridge, but in essence it is a 470 in a larger case and more powder. I bet what makes it shotable is the well designed/fitted Jeffery double.

Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

Guys-

I am desperately trying to find some RL15 to load 500NE rounds for two of us scheduled to hunt Ele in June! Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Please PM me with details if you can help!

Thanks in advance.

Sir,

I had 20 plus pounds locked up for Mr. William who said he was desperate for the powder, I made the arrangements for a five pound container for him at no profit.contacted him and then he said he was no longer interested.

I had gone out on a limb for this and was shot down. I ended up looking a prat and quickly disposed of it all.

Again the moral of the story being "no good deed goes unpunished".

Perhaps you would have been different Sir but it is too late now. Sorry

For your information Westley Richards uses Vitavori powder to regulate their .470's I and a friend easily worked up loads using .500 gr North Fork solid flat nose monos and hammered two elephants in last June. We are going back in May with the same loads.

If you care to discuss that with us, glad to help. I have however no Zero none, desire to become engaged in some fanatic discussion over the .470 being no good, that you will die and go to hell if one does not shoot a .500 exactly like some other nameless guy (s) shoot. I like a .470 but respect whatever anyone shoots as long as they shoot well, have a good time and are SAFE.



Respectfully,

Just to clarify the above post, GOB is NOT talking about me! By the time I contacted him around noon on 2/19, he had to check and the powder was gone. I'm still looking and appreciate any help.

Thanks,

quote:

Originally posted by GOB:
Sir,

I had 20 plus pounds locked up for Mr. William who said he was desperate for the powder, I made the arrangements for a five pound container for him at no profit.contacted him and then he said he was no longer interested.

I had gone out on a limb for this and was shot down. I ended up looking a prat and quickly disposed of it all.

Again the moral of the story being "no good deed goes unpunished".

Perhaps you would have been different Sir but it is too late now. Sorry

For your information Westley Richards uses Vitavori powder to regulate their .470's I and a friend easily worked up loads using .500 gr North Fork solid flat nose monos and hammered two elephants in last June. We are going back in May with the same loads.

If you care to discuss that with us, glad to help. I have however no Zero none, desire to become engaged in some fanatic discussion over the .470 being no good, that you will die and go to hell if one does not shoot a .500 exactly like some other nameless guy (s) shoot. I like a .470 but respect whatever anyone shoots as long as they shoot well, have a good time and are SAFE.



Respectfully,

Excuse the hell out of me Glen, but I never, repeat, NEVER contracted to purchase any powder from you. You make this post as if I contracted with you then backed out, leaving you in the lurch! Nothing could be further from the truth. You and I have had absolutely no private messages on the subject so absolutely all correspondence is contained right here in this thread. I suggest you go back and point out where I asked you to set powder aside for me and then backed out of the deal. It didn't happen!!

Specifically, I made comment about how hard it is to currently find RL-15 powder and was down to about 1/2 pound remaining. I simply asked if anyone knew of any available anywhere. Before you responded that you had some available, or for that matter, any one else, I found a good supply of IMR 4007 SSC which I used prior to making the switch to RL-15. I took advantage of purchasing several pounds at that time since it was local and would require no hazmat shipping charges, and it was "a bird in the hand" so to speak as no one had yet responded with a source of RL-15.

Furthermore, not only did I not contract with you to purchase powder, I certainly did not contract any specified amount, nor for any price. I guarantee you, had we contracted for a sale of your supply, I would not have sought to purchase it from you at no profit.

Your post is disingenuous in 1) saying you had 20 pounds locked up for me, 2) stating you made arrangements with me for a 5 pound container at no profit to you. The only thing that makes you "look a prat" as you say is your outright lie.

I don't normally take this tone with people but you Glen, you can kiss my ass!! Understand!! I don't take kindly to be made to look like a person who doesn't go through with deals that I make. You and I never got any where near that far in the discussion.

Honestly, I don't see how you think this is an example of "no good deed goes unpunished". I simply inquired about powder and before anyone answered, purchased some from a local vendor.

Very strange. I sent GOB a PM on February 12, the same day he made the post offering Todd the powder, after Todd said he had it covered, offering to purchase the powder. Never heard boo, zip, nada. Very strange indeed.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Very strange. I sent GOB a PM on February 12, the same day he made the post offering Todd the powder, after Todd said he had it covered, offering to purchase the powder. Never heard boo, zip, nada. Very strange indeed.

Interesting, but sadly I did not see your post, my assistant often checks e-mails and must have missed yours. I would never intentionally leave a Military man hang out to dry if we can help. I also never expected Mr. Williams to purchase any set amount. I did expect that he needed it from his posting but my life is not going to fail because he did not take the powder. He is correct I never asked him if he wanted the powder, I just located 20 pounds of the powder and never said a word to him. Nor did I call him any names. Sad to try and be helpful when people throw their toys out of the pram and have no idea about what is going on when all I was trying to do was be helpful. I did never hear him say " thanks for the efforts" just popping the toys out and being rather nasty.

I did make a call for you last night and have "supposedly" located more RL 15. He is a bit secretive, very strange but also very nice. He will NOT hold anything for anyone and only deals in cash. I am flat out here today and not able to get away. I need my help here as well and have no one to send. He is not available until Monday. It is a 60 mile round trip but I am free Monday morning. If you advise me how much you require and it is available I shall pick it up for you.

I again often say and have found that "no good deed goes unpunished" in so many situations. For Mr. Williams another saying I learned in the Army " it costs nothing to be nice ".

Oh, I do not know the price but it will be at my cost plus tax and ORMD shipping which is ground.

If this is not available please try the Vitavori powder, I am going to try this with the CEB bullets, it hopefully shall be even better.

There were others that wanted the powder and since you have a pressing need you shall be sorted. If some of the others with needs get in touch with what they need I shall help them if available.

Respectfully,

quote:

Originally posted by GOB:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Very strange. I sent GOB a PM on February 12, the same day he made the post offering Todd the powder, after Todd said he had it covered, offering to purchase the powder. Never heard boo, zip, nada. Very strange indeed.

Interesting, but sadly I did not see your post, my assistant often checks e-mails and must have missed yours. I would never intentionally leave a Military man hang out to dry if we can help. I also never expected Mr. Williams to purchase any set amount. I did expect that he needed it from his posting but my life is not going to fail because he did not take the powder. He is correct I never asked him if he wanted the powder, I just located 20 pounds of the powder and never said a word to him. Nor did I call him any names. Sad to try and be helpful when people throw their toys out of the pram and have no idea about what is going on when all I was trying to do was be helpful. I did never hear him say " thanks for the efforts" just popping the toys out and being rather nasty.

I did make a call for you last night and have "supposedly" located more RL 15. He is a bit secretive, very strange but also very nice. He will NOT hold anything for anyone and only deals in cash. I am flat out here today and not able to get away. I need my help here as well and have no one to send. He is not available until Monday. It is a 60 mile round trip but I am free Monday morning. If you advise me how much you require and it is available I shall pick it up for you.

I again often say and have found that "no good deed goes unpunished" in so many situations. For Mr. Williams another saying I learned in the Army " it costs nothing to be nice ".

Oh, I do not know the price but it will be at my cost plus tax and ORMD shipping which is ground.

If this is not available please try the Vitavori powder, I am going to try this with the CEB bullets, it hopefully shall be even better.

There were others that wanted the powder and since you have a pressing need you shall be sorted. If some of the others with needs get in touch with what they need I shall help them if available.

Respectfully,

Really Glen? You didn't see where I said "thanks for the efforts"? Go back and read the post that I've quoted here. It is the one where I responded saying that I had already found some powder. Here is the quote:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

I appreciate the offer Glen but while searching for RL-15 yesterday, I ran across several pounds of IMR 4007 SSC which is the powder I used prior to RL-15. I already have a load developed with it so I bought enough to get me through the next year or so. I'll go back to RL-15 once it becomes available again.

As to your quote about costing nothing to be nice; I couldn't agree more. Looking back over this thread, I don't see where I was anything but cordial to you until you insinuated that I welched on a deal with you. That is not my character and I take exception to it.

The fact is Glen, I've dealt with you previously on this forum and you have a habit and reputation of being much less than cordial in your dealings with people here. Honestly, when you made the offer for the powder, I was surprised by your helpful demeanor based on past dealings. Obviously, it was not a genuine offer as you completely dismissed Mike Jines's offer to purchase it on the very same day you made the offer to sell to me, then stated to the forum your willingness to help any other member needing RL-15, only to go on this little rant of yours when Lionhunter expressed a need for same. For the record Glen, I never called you any names, rather I called you out for your ungentlemanly behavior here.

"Throwing toys out of the pram" indeed!!

Hell o everybody:

Now Back to RL 15. I did load up some ammo with 86gr and some with 88gr under a 1/2 Backer Rod with it being compressed about 1/8". I was hoping to get around 2100f/s like others have reporting of getting on this thread. To my surprise I only got around 1950f/s with the 88gr load. Also to my surprise it shot good too.

Now I tried my other load of IMR 4831 106gr and it clocked at 2162f/s. So the IMR 4831 load is spot on. I also know that the Rl 15 is spot on according to Hornadys manual but not according to some reports on this thread. I wonder is there that much of a variation between the lots of RL 15!!! Humm.


I know some of you had experience variation between lots, but this seems quite a bit. Anybody had experienced that much of variation?



Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's bes

When you get the chance to switch from RL-15 to Norma 203B, I think you will find that the variation between batches is much smaller.

Rusty; I will wait till I can find some then I will give it a try, hopefully it will be a better performer than RL 15.

Mean while I loaded some 500gr DGS and 500gr TSX with 89gr of RL-15 and headed out to the range yesterday. Shooting both loads I experienced a little increase in velocity over the 88gr load but not much, few feet. The DGS grouped in 2" for a 4 shot group, did not cross and clocked at a bit over 1950f/s. The TSX was a bit faster at 1980f/s, now to my surprise the TXS load did cross. On the other hand the much higher velocity load of 106gr of IMR 4831 @ (2162f/s) did not cross.

That shows that the regulation/crossing issue is not only affected by the velocity variation but other factors come also to play, like barrel harmonics, recoil curve, etc.


These are the collective group results of the two groups at 50yds, using Rl-15, with two different bullets, the DGS is the triangle on the top and the TSX are on the bottom, both shot to the same point of impact, with the TSX shooting a tad lower.






Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

quote:

Originally posted by malek:

That shows that the regulation/crossing issue is not only affected by the velocity variation but other factors come also to play, like barrel harmonics, recoil curve, etc.



Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

Malek,

You are spot on with that statement. Somewhere, there is a thread here on AR where I journaled my experience with putting a Trijicon scope on my Chapuis 9.3X74R and getting it to shoot to regulation. I had loads that would cross the barrels and loads that would split the barrels, all with the same velocity and bullets. For instance, the CEB's would cross with IMR 4064 at roughly 2350fps but the same bullets would split 6" or more with IMR 4831 at 2350fps. Same bullets, same velocity.

What I finally figured out was that load density was affecting the acceleration rate (which is another way of saying burn rate) of the two loads and causing the bullets to leave the barrel at different points in the recoil arc. 16 loads later, I found that giving 100% load density by adding a bit of filler to the 4064 load was the magic trick that finally brought the barrels together with the scope mounted. I don't know if it was the density itself or more likely, having the powder column more uniformly pressed against the primer, affected the burn rate and therefore acceleration characteristics to match the recoil arc. Funny things, these double rifles and all their little individual idiosyncrasies.

Hey Todd; your comments here about your Chapius, struck a chord and reminded me of a similar experience that I had with mine (Chapius 9.3x74R) using IMR 4064 at around the same velocity (2367f/s) as yours and it caused my barrels to cross. I guess I should use your advice and try some filler you never know it might work. I should find your thread and read it.

Though In the 470 loads, I was using Backer Rod filler under both bullets, the DGS and TSX, one crossed the other did not at about the same velocity. You are right "Funny things, these double rifles and all their little individual idiosyncrasies".

Too Bad, I could not achieve the desired velocity with the RL-15 in my 470 as other s reported here. The best I was able to get was 1980f/s and that was with the TSX. I was hoping to get around 2150 without having to increase the load any more, as is I am at the max with the RL-15. I am not sure if it is this lot of powder I am using or some thing else. I know my rifle is spot on with IMR 4831.

Did you have any similar experience with RL-15 in your rifles? I like this powder and hate to side step it in favour of another one. My chapius shot the best with it.


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

Malek,

I've only shot RL-15 with the CEB bullets, and only in the 500NE and 577NE. My experience with those bullets in the 500NE was that they gave me right at 2100fps where the TSX was closer to 1980fps.

Before giving up on the RL-15, I'd try the CEBs as I think they are the best bullet for a double rifle anyway. My second choice would be the TSX so if you have a load doing 2150 with the TSX, that would be outstanding as well. Supposedly, RL-15 gives less recoil. I'm not sure I can tell the difference but then there you go again as I can't tell the difference between the 470 and 500.

I've shot the TSX bullets in my 500 extensively and it's a great bullet so maybe you have it locked up already?

Todd:

For sure I am not going to make a hasty decision in giving up on the RL-15. For one it shoots extremely well in my 9.3x74R. but it has not been up to par velocity wise in my 470 and 450-400 NEs. Some fellows reported here that they were getting excellent results with it in the 470, to the extent of 150" more from the same load. That is why I have been thinking could that be contributed to the difference between powder lots!!!!

As for the TSX I must agree with you it is a great bullet especially in those big Calibers. I like them bullets a lot, I shot them in my 340 and 300 WBYs and they did shoot great.

I had made a perches for quite few of those, way back before the advent of the CEB or my knowledge of its existence. Since I am not a believer in the OSR theory, I will be shooting them TSX in my 470. I am in the early stages of load development for the TSX so I am not sure how they will end up shooting in my rifle and at what velocities will wait and see. I am considering to switch to the CEBs in solids after I shoot all the stash of Barnes banded solids that I already have.

As for the Non Cons, I think I will be using them and the CEB solid in the development of my new cartridge, which is in the works at the present time.



Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

Glad to hear you are a non OSR guy. What do you know, we have more and more in common every day.

TSX in a 340WBY, yeah Baby!! That's elk medicine right there. That was the very first caliber I used the X bullet in and it sold me.

The only problem I've ever had with the TSX is in my 9.3x74R, and then, only when the scope is mounted. With the scope, the barrels cross off the paper at 50 yards. Not even on the paper!! Couldn't slow them down enough to do any good. But in the 500NE, they are killers of a special kind. So are the Non-Cons.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Glad to hear you are a non OSR guy. What do you know, we have more and more in common every day.


TSX in a 340WBY, yeah Baby!! That's elk medicine right there. That was the very first caliber I used the X bullet in and it sold me.


But in the 500NE, they are killers of a special kind. So are the Non-Cons.

Todd

What do you know, you might end up getting yourself a 470 after all.

That was exactly the reason behind me getting the 340Wby, that and the Alaskan moose.



I must agree with that statement, that is why I am having a bit of hard time making the switch, especially with the Non Con.

I like that TTSX in the 9.3 it is one heck of a bullet, it doesn't only have the looks, like its bigger sister the 500 .474 but also it is very accurate in my guns, and it should be devastating on game too, (have not tried it yet in the 9.3).


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best.

quote:

Originally posted by malek:


We find out that the Recoil Energy for the 470 NE is 69 f-lb and Recoil Velocity is 21 f/s. On the other hand The Recoil Energy for the 500 NE is 86 f-lb and Recoil Velocity is 23 f/s. That is a whopping 17 lb-s increase in Recoil Energy, which boils down to 20% increase. This is quite a bit of increase over the 470.


Best regards

Malek
Good shooting/hunting and God's best

Malek,

I almost hate to bring this part of the discussion back up but I finally found one of my references to the additional recoil, or lack thereof, in the 500NE over the 470NE. It comes from Chuck Hawks' recoil chart and is cross referenced with the book by Pierre van der Walt: "African Dangerous Game Cartridges" which is a very recent but highly regarded book on big bore rifles.

On page 397, Pierre lists performance parameters of the 470NE as being a 500gr bullet at 2150fps, generating 5,133 ft/lbs of energy, a Taylor KO value of 72.9, and recoil in an 11 pound rifle as 70.2 ft/lbs.

On page 422, he lists performance parameters of the 500NE as being a 570gr bullet at 2,150gps, generating 5,852 ft/lbs of energy, a Taylor KO value of 89.3, and recoil in the same weight of an 11 pound rifle as 77.2 ft/lbs.

That gives a Taylor KO number for the 500NE which is 18.4% higher than the 470NE but an increase in recoil of 9%. A 2 for 1 benefit if you will, based on percentages. An increase in recoil, with an identical weight rifle of 7.2 ft/lbs which exactly matches the recoil chart by Chuck Hawks for an 8.5 lb rifle in 243 Win, firing a 75gr projectile at 3400fps. And that is a relatively heavy 243. The recoil numbers in a 7 or 7.5 pound 243 make the 500's recoil increase seem even less of an issue comparatively speaking. I would say these numbers very closely reflect my experience with the two big bore calibers.

Taking it a step further for cross reference, Mr. Hawks' recoil numbers for the two calibers state the 470's recoil as 69.3 ft/lbs in an 11 pound rifle and for the 500NE, 74.5 ft/lbs in a 12 pound rifle. Very much in line with Pierre's recoil numbers. So his numbers are not exactly apples to apples since his 500 is a pound heavier, but still, it is a 5.2 ft/lbs difference in recoil, which is less than 1/2 of the 243 Win's recoil in the 7 pound rifle. Again, these numbers would be in line with what I perceive to be the difference in felt recoil between the two, and importantly, with the proportionately higher Taylor KO factor.

If you would like to review his recoil chart, it can be found here: http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

Sorry to bring this back to the top as the discussion had pretty much wound down, but as I've stated repeatedly here and elsewhere, I try to form my opinions on data that I can refer back to inorder to have what I hope can be interpreted as an "informed opinion". I always enjoy a lively debate and never object to opposing views to my own as it challenges me to think and reconfirm my stance. As a result, I was trying to find the references I used to originally form this opinion of the 500 having a disproportionally increased field performance on animals compared to the slight increase in recoil. I was having a little trouble finding my reference until stumbling back over Pierre's data.

So, just more food for thought my friend.

So, it's still somewhere between 9-20% increase in recoil on top of pretty significant recoil.

Dead is dead. Physics is physics. You want the theoretical advantage, you pay the theoretical piper.

quote:

Originally posted by tygersman:
So, it's still somewhere between 9-20% increase in recoil on top of pretty significant recoil.

Dead is dead. Physics is physics. You want the theoretical advantage, you pay the theoretical piper.

No, actually it's a 9% increase in recoil for an 18% increase in effectiveness, and that is a pretty significant trade off.

That's fine if it is your position. But most who have taken the "pepsi" challenge and taken identical 470s and 500s to the range, identical stock fit, identical weight, identical make and model, and shot them side by side would differ with that opinion. Not all, but most. Your point about whatever additional recoil is being added on to an already hard recoiling rifle is exactly the point. Once you reach a certain level of recoil, a little more or a little less becomes much less obvious. Think of it like this, once the temp drops to 10 below zero, 15 below zero doesn't really feel that much colder!

The edge isn't theoretical at all. The difference in the field is noticeable although there is nothing wrong at all with the 470. But the edge is there. And the great thing about the 500 is that that advantage comes without having to "pay the piper" dollar for dollar. More like "pennies on the dollar" for what you get in return. Think of it in terms of the example I posted previously concerning the 300 WBY Mag and the 375 H&H. They both produce the same energy. But the effects of the 375 projectile on a large dangerous game animal such as a buffalo is much more dramatic than the effects of being struck by the .308 projectile. That increased frontal area makes a larger difference than simply adding up the energy numbers. Of course, that is what Taylor was trying to convey with his KO values. And taking my example in the previous post, you see that you get 2% points increase in KO value for each 1% increase in recoil. "Pennies on the dollar"!! Actually, 50 cents on the dollar!! Ask around of your PH buddies who have used and / or observed both. See what their opinions are on the matter.

Again, nothing at all wrong with the 470. This discussion is a result of statements made about the 470s performance compared to the 500. Not as to whether or not either is unsuitable for the task at hand.

Just to put it into numbers, the 300 Wby Mag generates 23 on the Taylor KO value while the 375 generates 40 on the KO value. All with the same energy. But different frontal area and bullet weight. Roughly the same recoil as well, possibly even more tolerable with the 375 as the recoil velocity is slower.

A perfect example of increased effectiveness without having to pay dollar for dollar for the benefit!