OK, which is the best TODAY.

First the 375 H&H or the 375 Flanged will be in a double that is at least 2 pounds heavier than the 9,3.

The price of a 375 [either one] is around 5K more than a 9,3.

On paper the 9,3 has a 286 gr bullet at @2250fps the 375's have a 300gr bullet at @2400.

I have used the 9,3 on quite a bit of game.
I have never found it wanting in power or penetration.

I do not think any game animal could tell the difference.

My 9,3 weighs 7.25 lbs without scope, 375"s weigh around 9.5+lbs.

I think the 9,3x74R is the best double rifle calibre under .40 cal.

I have taken game up to and including cape buff and elephant with mine.

I consider the 9,3x74R [scoped] double rifle to be one of the best hunting rifles on the Planet.

Mr T

I think I'm with you on this one. I've taken a lot of game with both and even though I have been one to say that I don't agree with the people who say that the 9.3x74 is a equivolent cartridge to the .375 on paper I will say it is in the field.

Both rounds have there place but refering to some of the post here on the double rifle forum both current and past it seems every time someone mentions a problem with modern cartridges in a double rifle it turns out to be a .375.

I'm sure there are good double rifles chambered for the .375 rimless belted magnum but it's not a modern cartridge and maybe with it's long sloping case and high pressure it is the main culprit for belted cases having a bad rap with the double rifle crowd.

I'll take a 9.3x74 any day over the .375 H&H in a double rifle

Mr B.
Those are mighty bold words for a fella who has 338 WIN MAG Double Rifle.

.375 Long sloping case introduced 1912

.338 short fat sraight walls minumum taper came out 1962, 63 about then.

Two deferant animals

The point is for those of us who pontificate the merits of modern cartriges in double rifles we must reconize when there may be a problem area.

I'm not sure if it is the case here but it's worth exploring

AkShooter
I was hoping you would come back with a reply.

Question is, does a modern staight case, ie a cartridge that has, by design, less case head thrust, the way to go for a double rifle, for the modern hunter.

Ie, would the case head thrust say, the 375 Weatherby, case be better than the sloping 375 Flanged or H&H case???

Realizing that all these hypothetical topics are just for fun, the differences in the 9.3x74 and the 375 H&H may not seem apparent.

But you could also offer up the same reasoning with all the other different cartridges. The 333 Jeffery is no different than the 9.3x74......and the 318 is no different than the 275 Rigby.....

And then soon there is no difference between the 600 NE and the 22 Hornet.

I guess that is why all the old-time elephant hunters used the 22 Hornet!

Will,
Only if the 22 Hornet is over weight for it's caliber!

I think the 375 is legal for dangerous game in all the commonly hunted African countries. Anyone know the countries in which you can (or can't) legally hunt buffalo, ele, or lion with the 9,3x74R?

The 9.3 is legal in Zimbabwe, some places in RSA, and is accepted by game scouts in almost any place where dangerous game is hunted!

There is no question the 375 Flanged mag is superior to the 9.3X74, or 62, but by precious little! I happen to love the 375 Fl Mag, in a double rifle, and if ammo, and componants were as readily available as it is for the 9.3X74R, then you can bet I'd have one! That being said, the 375 Fl mag is not as widely available, so that is the reason I have two double rifles chambered for 9.3X74R, and none for the 375 FL!

NE450#2,

quote:

Posted 20 May 2007 11:09
OK, which is the best TODAY.

First the 375 H&H or the 375 Flanged will be in a double that is at least 2 pounds heavier than the 9,3.

The price of a 375 [either one] is around 5K more than a 9,3.

Heym does offer its Model 80-B (their smallest DR frame/action at approx 7lbs) in both 9.3x74 and 375 Flanged. In this case the 375 would actually weigh the same or less than the 9.3 Cost is about $10,000 for either caliber.

The 2lbs and $5k+ difference is true for both Merkel & Chapuis..... if both of these companies offered the 375 Flanged in their smallest and lest expensive rifles I think they would be good sellers. But the ammo supply problem still exists, however, not many people go hunting much less on Safari and plan on buying their ammo when they get there. The ammo issue is one that can be overcome through advance planning.
But no good way to overcome the extra 2lbs and $5,000.

quote:

Originally posted by AzGuy:
NE450#2,

quote:

Posted 20 May 2007 11:09
OK, which is the best TODAY.

First the 375 H&H or the 375 Flanged will be in a double that is at least 2 pounds heavier than the 9,3.

The price of a 375 [either one] is around 5K more than a 9,3.

Heym does offer its Model 80-B (their smallest DR frame/action at approx 7lbs) in both 9.3x74 and 375 Flanged. In this case the 375 would actually weigh the same or less than the 9.3 Cost is about $10,000 for either caliber.

The 2lbs and $5k+ difference is true for both Merkel & Chapuis..... if both of these companies offered the 375 Flanged in their smallest and lest expensive rifles I think they would be good sellers. But the ammo supply problem still exists, however, not many people go hunting much less on Safari and plan on buying their ammo when they get there. The ammo issue is one that can be overcome through advance planning.
But no good way to overcome the extra 2lbs and $5,000.

Okay, the Europeans kept the market alive for us 9.3x74R late-comers in the US.

But who in the world would have thought as little as a year ago that Hornady would be making 9.3x74R ammo and brass? Weird! And good!

If the 9.3x74R can be born again in this latest AR frenzy in the US then so can the .375 Fl. Mag.

All it will take is to convince someone like Chapuis to make them (on the small frame only please!) and the market will boom. Another group buy?

A 7 1/2 lb. 375 Fl. Mag.???? Bring it on baby!!

The 9.3 x 74 R is a fine, time-proven round. Its the "Queen of double rifles", as far as European Game is concerned. It is fine for driven hunts ( = more stopping power needed ) for Red Stag, Moose, Boar ...

There are three facts:

its the same "old" design, as most other double rifle rounds: long sloping round for reliability and ease of extraction - the same as .375 Flanged.

The .375 is somewhat more energetic. And the .375 ( Flanged or even the stronger Belted round ) are "Borderline" for really big game. The 9.3 is even ( slightly =) less powerful than the .375 Flanged which in turn is ( more slightly ) less powerful than the .375 Belted - you get the idea? Any step down is a MINISCULE step. But its one step down in Knock Down power.

Where is the "Border"? There is none exactly defined. Game and hunting conditions and Hunter´s ability vary.

The .375 is for some obscure, politically influenced reason the "smallest legitimate".

I wish, we could eliminate the last reason. But it´s a British legacy of times gone by.

Conclusion:

Get a 450/400 3" or a .375 Belted ( NOT in a double ) or above ... ( IMO: the daddy of them all: the .450 NE 3 1/4" - regulated with 480´s and downloaded with 400´s and 350´s for the .45-70 at the same speed ... ) if your aim is Africa.

Else: get a 9.3 x 74 R and be happy.

Aside from this, I would LOVE to have a .375 Flanged!!! Lots of bullets to choose from, low pressure, only the price of the brass - and always the possibility to take it legally for any game!

Have fun!

H

Simply for reasons of convenience the 9.3 is the better choice...

...ammo is readily available, it kills just as good as the .375 Fl and there are just more rifles out there to choose from.

This coming froma die-hard .375 FL fan and owner...

JW

quote:

Jeff Wemmer
one of us
Posted 26 May 2007 01:10 Hide Post
Simply for reasons of convenience the 9.3 is the better choice...

...ammo is readily available, it kills just as good as the .375 Fl and there are just more rifles out there to choose from.

This coming froma die-hard .375 FL fan and owner...

JW

JW,

What does your 375 Flanged weigh? Is getting brass THAT much of a hassel? What loads/velocity do you get?

I've got a bit of an unusual .375 H&H DR...was regulated for 54 gr. Cordite (insted of the normal 61 gr.) with 300 gr. bullet.

Thus, I've had a bit of trouble regulating with all of the factory loaded stuff I've encountered.

Finally got a load with H-4350 and 270 gr. bullets to work and work well.

BUT...If I were going overseas I'd pause and think hard before taking this rifle (although it is dead-on with my handloads). Due to its finicky diet. If the airlines lost my ammo I'd be screwed.

All of the guys I know that shoot the 9.3 Chapuis, K-hoffs and LeBeaus tell me that the rifles shoot factory Norma perfectly...Thus I bought one (Chapuis) as well and it's test targets show very good groups as well.

That along with the very available and accurate factory stuff make me go with the 9.3...Straight math on this one!

My H&H weighs 9 lbs. 3 oz with scope and is as good as it gets for a pre-war Dominion in original condition....But the ammo situation makes it a safe queen / NA hog gun.

JW

oops,

The load that regulated was: 68 gr H-4350, 270 gr. Woodleigh SP, Fed 215M primer, right at 2300

The .300 grainers would not regulate!!

RL-15, H-4831SC showed too much pressure sign for my liking.

Having seen buffalo shot with the 9.3 x 74, and having shot them with the 9.3x62, 9.3x64 and the .375, I have to say that I could not see a lot of difference, but all were hit in the right spot! My how that makes a difference.

I feel the 375 H&H is a better round, and it is on paper, but in the field, I can't say it is or isn't...I doubt if anyone can.

I guess I would prefer the .375 as a stopping rilfe, but none of them are on top of that list IMO, stopping rifles begin with the 40 calibers IMO....

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
I've got a bit of an unusual .375 H&H DR...was regulated for 54 gr. Cordite (insted of the normal 61 gr.) with 300 gr. bullet.

That isn't unusual at all. All but a few of the British .375 Flanged Magnum DRs (including all of the Hollands) I've ever seen were proved for the 54 Cordite, 300 grain bullet load. The Flanged Magnum was never loaded with 61 grains Cordite and a 300 grain bullet.

Standard ballistics for the Flanged Magnum were a 300 grain bullet at 2,425 fps from 28" barrels - which means maybe 2,350 from 24" barrels. A friend and I chronographed current factory Norma 9.3X74R 286 grain Oryx through his new Chapuis a few weeks ago and got roughly 2,350 from 23.6" barrels.

Given standard loads in barrels of equal length, any difference in ballistics between the .375 Flanged Magnum and the 9.3 is imaginary.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

But that is not to say you couldn't goose it up in handloads.

I'm using 2300 fps with 320 gr. Woodleighs in the Chapuis 9.3X74R. According to your 375 Fl. Mag. data, my 9.3 is a Magnum version of the 375 Fl. Mag.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
But that is not to say you couldn't goose it up in handloads.

Like I said - "Given standard loads in barrels of equal length..."

Some guy like Boddington writes that the .375 has a 10% (or whatever) edge and it gets parroted endlessly.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400 Nitro,

just went over to Cabela's yesterday afternoon. They had 500 rounds of 9,3x74R on the shelf.
They had about 500 fewer rounds of the 375FL, and don't know where or how to get any. Soooo, do we shoot them with a 9,3x74R or not shoot them with the 375FL?

Rich
DRSS

By the way, I have a 9,5x74R...aka the 38-90 Winchester,

Rich
DRSS

quote:

just went over to Cabela's yesterday afternoon. They had 500 rounds of 9,3x74R on the shelf.
They had about 500 fewer rounds of the 375FL, and don't know where or how to get any. Soooo, do we shoot them with a 9,3x74R or not shoot them with the 375FL?

Reckon that says it all!

JW

I thought you guys in the USA all made your own brass.

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:
I thought you guys in the USA all made your own brass.

Wink - of course we do!

We even mine the copper and zinc! We do this through a secret cooperative we have formed, the "Brass Association of Side by Side Shooters" (Brass ASSS"), which we melt, blend and form the appropriate brass.

We were looking at doing something similar to make lead bullets, but unfortunately we discovered, to our dismay, virtually all of the world's lead supply these days is consumed in the process of padding the backsides of politicians.

Hope this helps

Today has been a day of revelation to me on AR. I found out that there is a hotbed of Basque seperatists eating lamb in Idaho, a secret society is making brass and guarding that secret from their European allies. Next thing you'll know someone will confirm that they raise dental floss in Montana.

Back to the original topic:

I think the decision has been taken out of our hands by Hornady and ( partially or eventually together with ) Ruger.

It seems 9.3 x 74R is there to stay, and that´s a good thing. The "Queen of Kipplaufwaffen", as its known in Europe.

And the next step will sidestep the .375 Flanged and be the .450/400 3" - NOT a bad choice!! Now, if we could have a Single shot to work loads up and an economical Double and a 300 grs bullet for Boars ...

Just my .02, H

What is the big deal? Jamison makes the brass.

WinK: All right, who told about the floss crop? The trees remind me of the shepherd's tree found in the Namibian savannah country, with a fairly straight, limbless trunk and then a mop of leaves at the top. They are quite striking to see when monocultured. As you know, the fibrous seed pods need lots of moisture so the farmers plant in the damp, loamy river bottoms. Unfortunately, the pods being sweet and highly nutritious, they attract hordes of whitetails who are fond of nibbling the pods like goats, off their hind legs, scraping the outer pod material off between their front teeth as they pull on them and exposing the tough inner floss fibers, and incidentally leaving the whitetails with very clean front teeth. But the fencing expenses to keep out the deer make floss farming an iffy proposition, given the wide availability of much cheaper synthetic substitutes. But who said agriculture was ever easy?

Arminius
Your are correct. Once Hornady gets factory 9,3x74R ammo in the stores, and some hunters start using the Ruger No1's the "9,3" will see a big boost in popularity here in the US.

I think TC and others will also start chambering for the 9,3x74R.

If Ruger was really progressive they would come out with a No2, a double rifle, in 9,3... And maybe even 450/400 Jeffery

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
WinK: All right, who told about the floss crop? The trees remind me of the shepherd's tree found in the Namibian savannah country, with a fairly straight, limbless trunk and then a mop of leaves at the top. They are quite striking to see when monocultured. As you know, the fibrous seed pods need lots of moisture so the farmers plant in the damp, loamy river bottoms. Unfortunately, the pods being sweet and highly nutritious, they attract hordes of whitetails who are fond of nibbling the pods like goats, off their hind legs, scraping the outer pod material off between their front teeth as they pull on them and exposing the tough inner floss fibers, and incidentally leaving the whitetails with very clean front teeth. But the fencing expenses to keep out the deer make floss farming an iffy proposition, given the wide availability of much cheaper synthetic substitutes. But who said agriculture was ever easy?

I first became aware of raising dental floss when listening to Frank Zappa's "I might be moving to Montana" sometime in my misspent youth. Since whitetails are aged by their teeth it must make trophy identification a lot easier.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
If Ruger was really progressive they would come out with a No2, a double rifle, in 9,3... And maybe even 450/400 Jeffery

YESS!!! Exactly that would be wonerful!

( a matched pair - droool. or one of that pair ( the bigger one ) with a second pair of barrels in 20/76 ... )

I hope sombody from Ruger reads this!

PLEEAASEEE!

H

450
You know how I feel about a 9.3x74r. I think mine is wonderful as long as I can keep the scope off my nose. I am handloading the cheapest bullets I can find (Speer 270gr) with Varget powder. I am getting excellent accuracy results at approx. 100 yards. Mine is very light with or without the Kahles on it. I have a 375 bolt gun I built a few years ago and it shoots much better than me, but it is a fairly heavy gun. I toted it in 05 in Namibia. Next year I'm toting the lighter gun.

Brain1

I really like your Merkel 9,3 [it is the one with the 28ga sized frame and @21" bbls, with scope in QD mounts].


Those 270 Speers are just fine for deer and pigs.

My two cents worth in the discussion is this irrefutable fact; I was able to buy 500 rounds of Hornaber 375 flanged magnum brass very easily from Huntingtons. I still can not find any reputable brass in 450-400, 3" to buy. I am going to Tanzania this year and if Mr. Searcy can get my double rifle to me, I will be able to shoot the 375 FM barrels but perhaps not the barrels of the 450-400,3". RCBS provided me with both sets of dies pretty quickly and I am ready to go.

That should do away with the notion that the 375 flanged magnum is hard to feed. The fact that so many very good bullets are readily available for it is also a boon. I ordered about 500 GS custom FN solids for the 375 and the 400 and it took a year to get them. I ordered some 375 bullets from Northfork Technologies and got them quickly. Still no bullets comming for the 400. The 9.3 may be slightly easier to feed, only slightly, the real tale is in the ease of acquiring 375 terminal tackle, ie. bullets of which plenty abound now and forever. Not so for the 400 class rounds. The one fact that everyone forgets to include in the arguement is that once you have the brass and dies it is the bullets themselves that become an issue.

lb404

You might check with superior ammo and other custom loaders. You might be able to get some loaded 450/400 3" ammo from them.

Their ammo has shot very good in my doubles.

I thank you much. I have talked to them but I have 40+years of loading experience and prefer to do my own. Butch will provide me with the load info for the round both rifle barrels were proofed and regulated for. That should make things very simple. Do you know where I could obtain some quality 450-400,3" cases, about 200-300 of them? I have tried Jamison, Huntingtons has a standing order for me of 500 of the Horneber cases when they get them in. I hear that Hornady will not sell any cases until they have loaded all that might be needed for the Ruger #1 project and are not giving a delivery date at this time. It may be too late for this trip as I really wanted a lot more time to shoot the double and get used to it before the trip. Not gonna happen this time around!!!

lb404
I might be tempted to order 60 or 80 rounds from Superior, shoot it up in practice, load 40 or so for practice sessions, keep 40 once fired for Africa. Factory ammo is $$$ for sure but considering the overall cost of a Safari it might be money well spent.

Hopefully you can find enough Woodleigh Softs and Solids to check Searcys load, and have some left for Africa. You could always practice with hornady 300 gr .411 405 WCF bullets ot get some Hawk .411 bullets.

I will keep a lookoput for some 400 3" cases, and some .411 bullets.

I already have 200 rounds of Woodleigh 400 gr softs and solids stocked up along with the 300 gr. softs and solids for the 375. All I really need are the cases for the 450-400, 3". I am told I am first in line for the Hornady stuff but who knows when it will be released. I think Butch will supply me with some cases when I get my double from him. How much is the question. I figgure I need at least 50 rounds of both 375 and 400 to do the hunt as well as 50 rounds of 9.3x62 for the rest of the plains game. That is if I get my double by middle of July. I just don't know if one month with the double will be enough. If no double then the 375 H&H and the 404 Jeffery get the knod.
The load I want to make for my 400 is with the GS custom 380gr. flat nose solid. I think it will be just the ticket for the elephant, buff and lion. The 375 FM should cover most anything else we might encounter. The scoped 9.3x62 is dandy for plains game.

quote:

Originally posted by lb404:
My two cents worth in the discussion is this irrefutable fact; I was able to buy 500 rounds of Hornaber 375 flanged magnum brass very easily from Huntingtons. I still can not find any reputable brass in 450-400, 3" to buy. I am going to Tanzania this year and if Mr. Searcy can get my double rifle to me, I will be able to shoot the 375 FM barrels but perhaps not the barrels of the 450-400,3". RCBS provided me with both sets of dies pretty quickly and I am ready to go.

That should do away with the notion that the 375 flanged magnum is hard to feed. The fact that so many very good bullets are readily available for it is also a boon. I ordered about 500 GS custom FN solids for the 375 and the 400 and it took a year to get them. I ordered some 375 bullets from Northfork Technologies and got them quickly. Still no bullets comming for the 400. The 9.3 may be slightly easier to feed, only slightly, the real tale is in the ease of acquiring 375 terminal tackle, ie. bullets of which plenty abound now and forever. Not so for the 400 class rounds. The one fact that everyone forgets to include in the arguement is that once you have the brass and dies it is the bullets themselves that become an issue.

Another uninformed post from somebody that doesn't own a DR.
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

lb,

I have not found bullet selection for the 9.3 to be an issue at all. You can get them from 230 grains up to 320 grains. In addition to NorthFork and GS, there are Woodleigh, Lapua, barnes, Nosler, Speer, Swift, and others.

As for the 450/400, there are sources for the brass other than Huntingtons. Bullet selection certainly does not seem to be an issue for the guys who shoot them. I noticed that NorthFork does offer the 411 caliber bullets. Mike usually sells out his runs pretty quickly, so unless you are on his radar it could be a bit of a wait for the next run.

For a hunt this year (this is June already) I think it is very sound advice to try some loaded ammo if components seem to be an issue. That is quite a bit of shooting to get in to the proper feel of the rifle, especially for dangerous game.