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As you asked who was killed using single triggers. Please advise us a list of Professional Hunters who exclusive used single triggers?  | |||
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Also how many Safaris for Dangerous Game have you been on with a Single Trigger double rifle? Just as a matter of interest? | |||
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If you are addressing me you are incorrect, I didn't ask that question, 5seventy asked that question. Moreover, there is little to be gleaned from an answer since it is a pretty irrelevant question. A more relevant couple of questions might, "List the client hunters who successfully used single trigger double rifles to hunt DG?" and "List the hunters, client and professional alike, who had single trigger issues while hunting DG?" Nevertheless, single trigger for at least the vast majority of their careers: Southerland - don't recall off hand, without getting into my books, but thousands of elephants Richard Harland - ~10,000 elephants Barrie Duckworth - somewhere near the same Ron Thomson - ~5,000 elephants Paul Groebler - about 15,000 elephants And on and on and on and on and on and on . . . Oh blasphemy! Four out of five of those named had NO recourse if their triggers failed! BTW, every one of them retired ALIVE! JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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I am sure the number is the same as you! JPK Free 500grains | |||
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FWIW, on my DG rifle selection: I use a two trigger SxS sidelock rifle, with a non auto safety. Why? Because for decades prior to hunting dangerous game I hunted local waterfowl, pheasant, partridge, quail, grouse and rabbits and thousands of doves and ducks overseas with two trigger SxS guns, primarily side locks (with primarily non auto safeties); my experience with bolt rifles was nowhere near as extensive as my experience and time afield with two trigger SxS guns as well. So, when it was time to select a dangerous game rifle, I selected the configuration I had the most time and experience with, a two trigger SxS side lock, with a non auto safety. But HORRORS! My DG rifle can't work, even though it has two triggers and SxS barrels! Why you ask? Well, because it is different than what everyone else uses, and we know that can't possibly work, right? Many view my DG rifle as an even greater abomination than Sutherland's single trigger WR's! I have been informed repeatedly that it can't work, that it is dangerous, that I must be inexperienced in the ways of double rifles and dangerous game to even consider considering using it on DG. HORRORS! Remarkably, a decade and a half later, I still read the same drivel regarding my rifle, or similarly capable if not ideal rifles, like a single trigger rifle or an o/u rifle. If I had spent the time I spent carrying and shooting SxS two triggers sidelocks instead carrying and shooting single trigger o/u shotguns, there is a high likelihood I would use a single trigger o/u for DG. But I didn't. Why you would argue that a hunter ought to force himself to use an unfamiliar configuration that is unwieldy and uncomfortable for him to use is just beyond reason, particularly when it comes to DG. Especially when history reflects the success of types offering even less redundancy and less recourse in the event of an ammo or trigger failure. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Would be interesting to have PHs weigh in on this subject. My guess is that many, probably a majority, would say they would prefer that their clients show up with single trigger doubles. I think many of them would tell you that more than a handful of their clients struggle with using double triggers. We have all seen too many video clips of some hapless hunter continuing to yank on the front trigger long after the right barrel has been fired. Generally they are still trying to pull the trigger while the elephant or buffalo is high tailing it in the other direction. I think if someone is not prepared to practice and master shooting with double triggers to the point where using double triggers is innate, then they should use a single trigger. I would also postulate that all the concerns over single triggers, and the benefits of double triggers, are overhyped and more debated than real. Mike | |||
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I would agree. I'd add that some of the concerns about single triggers, are based on incorrect descriptions regarding how their mechanisms function. | |||
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Agree with above, actually found a great Westley Richards double in 470NE & a second set of barrels in 375. If someone was willing to purchase this beautiful double & pay for the safari, I would be happy to test this "single trigger" set-up against elephant, buff (with the 470) & lion (375).  http://www.hallowellco.com/wes...le%20470%20Nitro.htm | |||
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I'll second that too. It reminds me of the old chestnut about which, between the revolver or the semi-auto pistol, is more prone to jam... André DRSS --------- 3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact. 5 shots are a group. | |||
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I have been reading this thread with great interest. For background, I've never hunted DG, and probably won't, but would really like to. I started hunting with a Browning Superposed single trigger. That was over fifty years ago. For most of my life that was my only shotgun. It has only been in the last ten years that I've tried double triggers. I've purchased and used several double trigger shotguns and a few double rifles, only up to 9.3x74R, add in a few German O/U's and drillings. I have yet to be able to get off two quick shots with a double trigger, except on paper. I can't seem to even pull it off on clay birds. I have the same problem with remembering to pump a pump gun when duck hunting. I seem to be an old dog that just can't learn new tricks. I wish I had been able to scope my first double rifle, which was a single trigger O/U. I probably would not have gone down the double trigger route. I guess my point is that, while for many the double trigger is second nature, at least one of us just can't make a double trigger work as it's supposed to. I appreciate the discussion and expressions from experience. I continue to learn. Thanks Bfly Work hard and be nice, you never have enough time or friends. | |||
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JPK, you're back. I thought you might dead or something. I won't bring up the double trigger choke in that charge. Sorry, I said I wouldn't bring it up. I think the vast majority of the double trigger crowd picked that up from the comments of John Taylor, including the African natives. You'll never change the minds of the PH crowd about most anything. After all, they see themselves as God-like and so do the fawning dudes going to Africa. "If my PH recommends double triggers, then it's good enough for me." Smiler It's just embarrassing. Guess I better let the new crop of experts have at the arguing! ------------------------------- ------------------------------- Will Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor Member, GOA, N.A.G.R. _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ Hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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nah, no arguing, but just answer this for me and we're square!: What happens on a single trigger double if the primer misfires? And isn't the main reason for a double is to have TWO separate independent systems in case one fails for close up dangerous work? Pass on the single trigger... USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Jorge, with a mechanical single trigger, WR style, you pull the trigger again and the second barrel fires. Actually easier than switching triggers, since some of the ease of switching triggers on a two trigger rifle is associated with recoil. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Okay why not, The single versus double trigger debate. Comical to say the least. The double rifle with two independent triggers was a stand by in Africa at the turn of the century for many reasons. All of them beat to death in this thread. Outside of the occasional dangerous game specialist pro hunter, the two trigger double rifle is about as necessary as tits on a boar hog. The modern safari hunter who actually feels he needs the reliability of a two trigger double for his safety needs to put down the Hemingway and take a look at what he is paying for on that 21 day'er. If he needs that much protection he should find a better outfitter. Nothing wrong with old and proven, but let's not paint it as a requirement. That's just silly. Macs B U.S. Army Retired Alles gut! | |||
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Good to "see" you too Will. If you are referring to the doubling on the charging bull at 7yds, it wasn't an operator trigger snafu, it was operator stupidity for elephant hunting with a rifle with a brand new pig skin covered pad. But the fortuitous find of on old and worn piece of about 80 grit behind the seats in the cab of the PH's Toyota fixed that, even if it defaced the pad. I think I'll take a photo of the pad, I haven't changed it out since I attacked it with the 80 grit. Anyway, doubling or not, 2x500grs in the head stopped him, eh? JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Bfly, I fully understand your problem, and I'm not saying to anyone NOT to use a single trigger double rifle of any chambering. What I'm trying to get across is, when something happens like a bad primer, or something broken on one barrel just be aware of what to do and practice doing just that, so that too becomes second nature. That is all Taylor said as well. That is why he recommended the SELECTIVE type if a single trigger is to be used. Andre' has become very familiar with the drill when something happens, and thus would be very quick if he got in a tight spot with a misfire on the first shot. I have nothing against single triggers, most of my O/U shotguns, and one double rifle are single trigger guns. The shotguns are selector type, but the rifle is an inertia type and not selective, That rifle is not worth crap anyway so I wouldn't be using it on dangerous game anyway. On non-dangerous game it makes no difference how many triggers you have or what type! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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You are wrong about putting your life in the hands of a PH. I have hunted with or shared conversation on the topic with some of the best elephant PH's and one thing they all have in common is that they have blown the frontal brain shot more than a few times. Moreover, as Buzz Charlton once told me, I have killed more elephants and have more elephant hunting experience than the majority of Zim PH's. Will would be in the same situation, and certainly 465H&H. Not intending to slight 465H&H or Will, or myself either, but that is f'in scary when you think about it. Better to use enough rifle and to practice with it, and to keep the mind set that you need to keep yourself alive, in the event the PH can't (might not have a clear shot or good angle) or doesn't (misses) or isn't capable of it (breaks and runs with the trackers!) But I agree with you on single trigger issue, if that is what you are comfortable with, use it rather than forcing yourself to use something you are less comfortable or competent with. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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When was the last time you were personally put in danger by the quarry of your Safari? When was the last time your PH failed you? When was the last time your rifle failed you when making that frontal brain shot? To each his own. Like I said just don't try to make it sound like a requirement for your safety. A very few dangerous game PHs who work exclusively in that field might be able to justify it. Other than that, it is nostalgia and personal preference. Macs B U.S. Army Retired Alles gut! | |||
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The problem is, IF something fails only once, it could be the last time... There are many times we have No control over things that happen. However,we CAN control the equipment we use and the training we do with it. I try to eliminate as many things that COULD go wrong as I can. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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The last time was last trip and the time prior to that was the safari before that one. In fact, there has been at least one situation that could have gone one way or the other - meaning had to shoot or not, every trip. There have been two instances where there was no avoiding a defensive shooting. I stopped the elephant both times, once by plan since the PH was down to one barrel having used one to fire over her head in an unsuccessful attempt to get her to stop her charge, and once because I was the only one of four - PH, me, Appy and game scout - who had a shot. In addition, we were once charged by an entire herd of cow elephant in the Save Conservancy at Humani, in the riverine bush. We were able to elude them, by running through the maze of brush, but they took up our scent trail and tracked us for several miles. Even at their pace, which was relatively slow as they worked out our scent trails - and we were trying to loose them - we needed to jog most of the time to stay ahead. Thankfully, as we were running out of steam, we came upon a dry pan and we ran to the center of the pan. It was late I nthe season and at the end of a long safari for me and between the PH and I we had thirteen of fourteen rounds of solid ammo. The PH, Rich Tabor, remarked that we would have to be accurate and miss few or none to live through it, given the size of the herd. Thankfully, the herd stopped at the tree line and went ballistic, pushing down trees and screaming for 20 minutes, but they wouldn't come out of the cover. Have you read the account of one of Buzz Charlton's clients being injured by a charging cow where Buzz, one of the very finest elephant PH's, missed the frontal brain shot? Or a former (?) member named Indy whose PH missed an entire elephant as the elephant charged - twice!? Or the PH and client who together had to shoot a whole bunch of cows that chased and charged them over a mile or more? Have you ever hunted elephant? If so, have you ever done it up close? Have you ever tried a frontal brain shot? On a charging elephant? In Zimbabwe, a charging elephant must be shot within 10yds for that shooting to even be considered a defensive shooting. Many sources cite 25mph as an elephant top speed, I think they are wrong and elephants are faster. But using 25mph, that elephant covers 37' per second. You, the PH, whoever, have less than one second from the earliest possible moment to stop that elephant or someone is more likely than not going to be killed. I know AR members Will and Oz Hunter have also stopped charging elephants, and I am quite sure a couple more I can't recall as well. My rifle has never failed me on a frontal brain shot, however, I have missed more than one! To trust your life to any PH is just foolish. Especially foolish when that PH may have less elephant hunting experience and have killed fewer elephants than me, or some of the other AR members. Using an adequate rifle and being both physically and mentally prepared to save your own hide is a requirement for your own safety, imo. BTW, go back and read my post, I agree with using a mechanical single trigger double rifle if a single trigger is what you are most accustomed to. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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 When will it be the first time for any of them? You don't know, and when will you get ready when the first time one of those things happens? ................................  ................................  .........  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Todd, I am going to have to find that video of yours. I have a series of stills of one cow charging that my PH, Rich Tabor, told me to shoot since he had fired over her head to no effect. You may have seen the series in the "Criterion" thread. I also have video of stopping a bull at about 7yds. That bull came up wind looking for us. We ran to an old termite mound to get some height in thick early season Nyakasanga jess. He almost passed by but come through the jess from the side and started up the slope of the termite mound. I should figure out how to get it off disk and download it. BTW, Rich missed the brain shot after I had stopped the bull, but it was a particularly difficult shot, with the bull beginning to turn to leave, and Rich having to round a tree to get a clear shot. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Here you go! Enjoy! http://forums.accuratereloadin...401031591#8401031591 | |||
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Thanks, very nice bull and very nicely done. Where we you hunting? I gather on an island in the Zambezi, but what concession? Thick there on the island. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Dande North with CMS. One of the islands on the Zambezi, a mile or so West of Gavin Roark's old camp up on the hill, but East of Red Cliffs. Yep, very thick on that island! Much fun!! | |||
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What time of the year? With water from the river I guess the bush could stay thick and green all season, and the PH mentioned some rain, so it seems likely your hunt was either very late, like late October or early November, or early in the season. Was Gavin the camp manager? Circa 2000 we were hunting Chewore once and needed to stop by a camp in Dande while Buzz was there for some reason I can't now recall. The camp manager was a fellow in his 40's and an ornery fellow, I swear he counted the cokes we drank while waiting for Buzz and Dan McCarthy (500grains) to return. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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No. Gavin sold to CMS. I forget the name of his old camp but CMS is now in control of the area and the old camp on top of the hill. My hunt was first two weeks of December this past year. We had hoped to catch the rains, cooling things off, and getting some bulls over from Moz. But the rains were late and it was still extremely hot ... and dry as a bone. The video was shot on day 11 of a 12 day hunt. | |||
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I think I am confusing one Dande for the other. I have hunted as late as the third week of November in Makuti. It was hot and sticky then, and we did get some afternoon showers which cooled things off. I am sure a December hunt would be even hotter. 11th hour bull. I have had one of those. I started sweating bullets on the 11th day of a 14 day hunt in Nyakasange, where the trophy fee is pre paid and no refundable. We found our bull day 13. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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Well I just remembered another advantage of a double rifle with two triggers. You can wire them together, so that when you pull the back trigger BOTH barrels fire at the SAME time...  If I remember correctly it was W.D.M. Bell that did this on his 450/400 double rifle, I recall seeing a picture of that rifle with the triggers actually wired together. Basically he turned his 400 double rifle into an 800 single shot. Note: I do not recommend that modification.  DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Of the two times my Merkel was doubled, the first was the result of an RSA PH who chose as his DG back up rifle, a Remington Pump 30/06 topped with a stainless fixed 6 power scope. He asked to shoot my rifle after my son took his buffalo. Thinking he would know about rifles, notwithstanding his back up gun choice, I handed it to him without instruction where he promptly placed two fingers into the trigger guard and fired both barrels. He was impressed but completely missed the target!  | |||
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NOW there is a big difference between a two shots being fired at the same time vs the typical double rifle double... Let me explain, as I have experienced BOTH. Once upon a time I bought a Sauer 2000 Drilling, a 12x12x30/06. I did shoot the rifle barrel and each of the SGN barrels, but never both SGN barrels loaded at the same time... The gun shot great. However the first time I hunted turkeys with it I called in several turkeys together. They were about 35 yards away so I picked out one and decided to fire the full choked bbl first, so I aimed and pulled the rear trigger. BOTH BARRELS fired at the SAME TIME. Which nearly kicked me out of my hunting chair, and killed three turkeys... Lucklly I had 4 turkey tags... A trip to JJ Perodeau fixed the problem... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Early on in my double rifle hunting days, I was hunting with my 450 No2, with 480 gr Woodleigh Softs, for pigs on my deer lease. I was hunting in a "blind" conisting of trees pulled up, with a plastic chair to set in. SO a big [around 275lb] pig walks right by me, within 10 feet or so. He walks past me and circles around, it is very thick, untill he is to my left. I am aiminng at him with the stock on my arm, as he is 90* to my left. When he is in the clear I shoot. Because of the angle, my shoulder colaspess and I get a double discharge. It kicks me and my chair, to the right and to the ground.  After I recovered,  A search found the pig dead, hit by one round only... This incident helped me early on to learn proper double rifle technique. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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If he'd have had a proper elephant rifle in 450NE or better he wouldn't have needed to do that.  JPK Free 500grains | |||
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JPK I agree, but I wonder why he found it necessary to wire both triggers of a 450/400 together since he was most known for shooting elephants off of a ladder with a 7x57... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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........................  One right, two left....Reload! 3 right,4 left! ............. ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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That is the exact same sequence experienced when the hunter is using a mechanical single trigger. Right barrel fires then left, reload, right barrel fires and then left... Free 500grains | |||
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JPK you are absolutely correct. "IF" nothing goes wrong! If that happens as mentioned above in my QUOTE! I don't know anyone who is dumb enough to be unaware that when the rifle doesn't fire with one trigger that the drill is to pull the other one! SIMPLE! However how many will automatically know what to do when he gets a bad primer or a broken spring or striker on an inertia type single trigger, or even a nonselective mechanical single trigger. In the case the inertia type the second will not fire unless he knows what to do, and with mechanical type the second shot will fire but the with a broken striker or spring the first shot after a re-load will not fire unless he knows what to do. All this unless the shooter has practiced what to do in those mishaps! In a tight close encounter there is no time for study! Either you have practiced what to do or you will be in deep crap! I think we can all agree that a large percentage of folks who buy a O/U double rifle are new to double rifles, and most double rifles with single triggers are O/Us. I would think most of that percentage is new to hunting dangerous game as well. This the is reason I posted the BOLD passage in the quote above. An ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure! KNOW YOUR RIFLE! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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Yeah, I agree. If only you had known YOUR rifle, what type of trigger it has, how the top barrel is cocked, and (if the first barrel misfired) how to fire the second barrel. Perhaps then your little tirade on page 2 of this thread might not have existed. KNOW YOUR RIFLE | |||
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5seventy do you think, for one minute, that an inertia single trigger that is not selective is a good idea on a dangerous game rifle? If you do then you are not as smart as you claim to be! Message received, you are the only person who knows anything! Like anyone else (other than you it seems), I make mistakes, but you have told us you know everything, so it must be true! It seems I can't wipe my butt without hitting you right in the face! So, how about you pull your nose out off my ass with your bull dog stalking. ......................... .....  Unload your gun Hoss, I think I've been shot enough!....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith | |||
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