What happens on a single trigger double if the primer misfires? And isn't the main reason for a double is to have TWO separate independent systems in case one fails for close up dangerous work? Pass on the single trigger...

Never had a problem with the CZ trigger but as you said there have been issues. I suggest replacing the factory CZ with a Timney when someone's life may well depend on the shot.

Two weeks ago the Zimbabwe PH's just had their range qualifications for Apprentice PH's. There were 28 for the test only 18 passed with one Apprentice having a .458 round blow in the magazine. Resulting in injury to his hand. As far as I know there was no determination as to the cause of the round going off in the magazine.

The CZ is by far the most successful rifle in the tests and do hold up. At $40.00 per round for a .416 Rem. Mag. It is very costly for the Appies to obtain ammo for practice. Many depend on ammo left behind by Hunters and many of those are very POOR reloads. Most of the failures were due to poor quality, poorly maintained rifles along with poor ammo.

There was not one Double Rifle used in the test. There was one young lady who participated, using a CZ .416 Remington Mag. Left hand converted from a CZ .375 H&H fitted with a Timney trigger and she placed third. In a very comprehensive difficult examination of shooting skills and ability.

I stand corrected,5seventy. Obviously, I got mixed up among the names of the many quotes/posters.
I'm still standing behind my single trigger double guns because I'm used to them to the point they've become second nature and I constantly switch between the 4 of them. But then, I'm not hunting big dangerous game. If I was, I might opt for double triggers on either O/U or S/S. If in Africa, I might even choose the latter, for the "romance" they carry.

Gentlemen, I think some of you have lost the reasoning with the single trigger on a double rifle. Nobody has said that the single trigger is fail prone, quite the opposite!

Where the problem is, is not the trigger it’s self but when something goes wrong with the rifle or ammo, depending on the type of single trigger there are too many hoops one has to jump through to get off another shot! If this situation develops while hunting deer or moose, it only means you miss a chance for a trophy. If, however it happens with a lion, buffalo, or elephant closing on you fast, welllllllllllll, that is a zebra of a different stripe!

You need to re-read the quote from Taylor’s book in regard to single triggers on a double rifle. He, nor I said anything about the trigger failing to operate, But what was said was, If you were only shooting non-dangerous game, then it wouldn’t matter how many triggers you had, but when you are close to dangerous beasts you do not want to be having to remember things that you might easily forget.

quote:

from Taylor’s book: pages 325 &326

If you were only shooting non-dangerous game, then it wouldn’t matter how many triggers you had, but when you are close to dangerous beasts you do not want to be having to remember things that you might easily forget.

You see it would be absolutely essential that the mechanisms should be the selective variety, so you could fire either barrel first, and you would have to remember to shift whatever mechanism there was before you could dare open the breech for the purpose of re-loading without firing left, so that if you were suddenly attacked before you had gotten the shell into the chamber you could snap-to the breech and fire the left barrel. If you had forgotten to shift whatever slide or other control mechanism before opening the breech, then, then you would find yourself snapping the lock of the empty right barrel when endeavoring to stop the charge, because opening the breech re-sets the mechanism of the single trigger device. Besides it is very, very seldom that you are called upon to fire so quickly that you couldn’t take the shot with two triggers. Really powerful rifle jump to a greater or lesser extent on being fired, so that you could hardly expect to fire them as rapidly as an auto-loader. Nevertheless, in fairness to Westley Richards’ selective single- trigger mechanism I must admit that on two or three occasions when tackling elephant in very thick stuff, and there were only two or three, and I knew exactly where they were, so that I didn’t mind firing the left barrel without first reloading the right, I am pretty sure that I was enabled to get two where with an ordinary double-trigger rifle I would not have gotten more than one. It was occasionally the same with rhino and buffalo when I would just get the merest fleeting glimpse of a vital spot as the animal passed across a small gap in the foliage on the heels of the first shot, or even as the first beast fell and exposed for an instant a companion. One step, in that stuff, and your quarry disappears. However, taking everything into consideration, I decided that it was better in every way to stick to two triggers for Dangerous game, and so discarded my 577. [/i]

.

This is why I dislike the single trigger on a double rifle that is to be used while hunting DANGEROUS GAME! It has absolutely nothing to do with the reliability of the trigger it’s self, but the things one may forget to do when before opening the rifle to re-load one barrel, when the first barrel fails to fire for any reason.

Speaking of strumming double triggers to get a double discharge, that is not possible only on a double trigger. A single trigger can be made to double discharge as well. Like most here I didn’t believe that was possible till my then 9 yr old had a double discharge on my O/U with a single trigger 12 ga shotgun. I thought something was wrong with the sear engagement on my shotgun. Not the case!

When I took the gun into a gun shop that was frequented by a lot of clay bird shooters. One of the clay shooters told me how that had happened. He said, because the length of pull was too long for the kid, when he fired the first shot, the shotgun recoiled back moving the trigger away from the kids finger and when the recoil was over, the shotgun moved back forward with the kids finger still on the trigger, and the gun fired the other barrel. So it was not the fault of the single trigger per say, but because the kid had accidently caused a double discharge on a perfectly made, well maintained single triggered shotgun. The clay shooter said this often happens with new shooters on the skeet range. SO! That can happen with the single trigger as well.

I will leave you guys to your opinions and single triggers on double rifles used for hunting dangerous game, Mine will always remain fitted with double triggers!
...................................................................BYE!

I don't know where some of you guys have been. My Miroku O/U shotgun has inertia set hammers with a single selective trigger. Opening the gun cocks both internal hammers and the selector/safety allows either barrel to be fired first. In the event of a misfire in the first barrel (whichever is selected) a bang on the recoil pad will allow the second barrel to fire. If one barrel is out of action the other can be selected and the gun happily operates as a single barrel. Everytime the gun is opened the barrel selected is cocked. It will cock and fire the barrel that is selected everytime.

The Miroku, a beautifully made SP1 Sporter, has been a joy to use for nearly 30 years on game and extensive competition shooting on trap and skeet (screw in chokes) The trigger, although a little heavier than a rifle, breaks like glass with no creep or excessive backlash. With an insert barrel for 22 Magnum installed I could group at 1 1/2" at 50m using the middle and front bead. The trigger is perfect.

The Miroku has fired thousands of rounds, is as tight as it was when new, has misfired once on a factory cartridge and is still on the original spring and firing pin set.

If Miroku would build a double rifle put together and working as good as my shotgun I would become an instant double fan.

Like their cars, the Japanese sure know how to make a good firearm. Miroku make most of the Brownings.

My point, technically it can be done.

Please read eagle27's post like this :

"Miroku belongs to Browning Intl and makes some of the Brownings.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
I don't know where some of you guys have been. My Miroku O/U shotgun has inertia set hammers with a single selective trigger. Opening the gun cocks both internal hammers and the selector/safety allows either barrel to be fired first. In the event of a misfire in the first barrel (whichever is selected) a bang on the recoil pad will allow the second barrel to fire. If one barrel is out of action the other can be selected and the gun happily operates as a single barrel. Everytime the gun is opened the barrel selected is cocked. It will cock and fire the barrel that is selected everytime.

The Miroku, a beautifully made SP1 Sporter, has been a joy to use for nearly 30 years on game and extensive competition shooting on trap and skeet (screw in chokes) The trigger, although a little heavier than a rifle, breaks like glass with no creep or excessive backlash. With an insert barrel for 22 Magnum installed I could group at 1 1/2" at 50m using the middle and front bead. The trigger is perfect.

The Miroku has fired thousands of rounds, is as tight as it was when new, has misfired once on a factory cartridge and is still on the original spring and firing pin set.

If Miroku would build a double rifle put together and working as good as my shotgun I would become an instant double fan.

Like their cars, the Japanese sure know how to make a good firearm. Miroku make most of the Brownings.

My point, technically it can be done.

I think I can speak for most if not all here, but we are aware of the system you speak of and in my opinion anyway, a single trigger is not something I would want on a double. If indeed you have a misfire, you either have to bang the stock in order to inertially cock the second firing pin, OR snick the selector button to select the other barrel. Either way costs you critical time, and in the case of a close in charge, that length of time could prove to be an eternity.

I like double triggers and am very accustomed to them through the use of SxS double shotguns for duck and goose hunting when I know conditions will be reasonable and other bird hunting (and for deer I have a 20ga SxS double trigger double rifle too.)

Once a year I will try to rip the trigger guard off my foul weather/salt marsh/bottom of canoe or jon boat oar/crutch/Eastern Shore Camouflaged duck gun, which is a Mossberg pump shotgun. (Eastern Shore Camouflage is what we call rust when hunting MD's Eastern Shore salt marshes.)

Once a year I will try to pump the splinter fore end of my 10ga SxS goose gun or my 12ga SxS and try to bend the front trigger.

After the two instances of the follies I can swap back and forth without issues.

My brother just cannot use a double trigger gun. He became so accustomed to a single trigger gun when he was younger that he invariably fumbles if he tries to shoot a double trigger gun, and he has given it some reasonable effort.

So, my take on it is if you can use a double trigger shotgun - which will be used much more than a rifle, or can be at the local trap/skeet/sporting range - as effectively as a single trigger gun, and you can become accustomed to it, use a double trigger rifle.

If you cannot become accustomed to double triggers, a mechanical (rather than inertia) single trigger double rifle is still better than a bolt rifle for DG.

Think about it, if a bolt rifle - used extensively and successfully for DG, though imo a second choice - has a mechanical or ammo issue it is a 0 shot rifle and a poor club. The single trigger double rifle will allow for two shots when it is working properly, and one when it is not, just like a double trigger DR. And only DR's give the opportunity for two when the s--t hits the fan and the DG is close and closing.

A selective trigger is not necessary, a solid will do the job on any animal, even if a soft might be the better choice. Think again about the bolt rifle, their is no choice of ammunition with a bolt rifle, whatever is up the spout is what needs to be fired first, or the time taken to cycle the action and eject the round to load the next up, IF it is of the preferred, different type. Again, bolt rifles have a long successful track record of use on DG, though a second choice imo.

As far as charging DG, elephant can be turned without a CNS hit - it takes a big bore solid - buffalo and lion are renowned for not being deterred without a CNS shot. A solid is as good or better for a CNS shot than a soft. As for leopard, a charge will "only" come when you are following up a wounded one, and then you would have softs in both barrels anyway, the same is almost as true for lion, though accidental close encounters that could lead to a charge are not infrequent.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by The Norwegian:
Krieghoff does up to 375. Larger bore than 375 there will be 2 triggers.

Bill Stewart (Will on AR) had a single trigger Krieghoff .470 NE for a while but I think he sold it. Might PM hime.

Mechanical or inertia, selective or not - on dangerous game you may be betting your life on whether or not it's going to work.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Gentlemen, I think some of you have lost the reasoning with the single trigger on a double rifle. Nobody has said that the single trigger is fail prone, quite the opposite!

I have a high-grade single-trigger 20 gauge SXS shotgon that quit shooting the left barrel twice due some hiccup with the trigger mechanism switching.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
I like double triggers and am very accustomed to them through the use of SxS double shotguns for duck and goose hunting when I know conditions will be reasonable and other bird hunting (and for deer I have a 20ga SxS double trigger double rifle too.)

Once a year I will try to rip the trigger guard off my foul weather/salt marsh/bottom of canoe or jon boat oar/crutch/Eastern Shore Camouflaged duck gun, which is a Mossberg pump shotgun. (Eastern Shore Camouflage is what we call rust when hunting MD's Eastern Shore salt marshes.)

Once a year I will try to pump the splinter fore end of my 10ga SxS goose gun or my 12ga SxS and try to bend the front trigger.

After the two instances of the follies I can swap back and forth without issues.

My brother just cannot use a double trigger gun. He became so accustomed to a single trigger gun when he was younger that he invariably fumbles if he tries to shoot a double trigger gun, and he has given it some reasonable effort.

So, my take on it is if you can use a double trigger shotgun - which will be used much more than a rifle, or can be at the local trap/skeet/sporting range - as effectively as a single trigger gun, and you can become accustomed to it, use a double trigger rifle.

If you cannot become accustomed to double triggers, a mechanical (rather than inertia) single trigger double rifle is still better than a bolt rifle for DG.

Think about it, if a bolt rifle - used extensively and successfully for DG, though imo a second choice - has a mechanical or ammo issue it is a 0 shot rifle and a poor club. The single trigger double rifle will allow for two shots when it is working properly, and one when it is not, just like a double trigger DR. And only DR's give the opportunity for two when the s--t hits the fan and the DG is close and closing.

A selective trigger is not necessary, a solid will do the job on any animal, even if a soft might be the better choice. Think again about the bolt rifle, their is no choice of ammunition with a bolt rifle, whatever is up the spout is what needs to be fired first, or the time taken to cycle the action and eject the round to load the next up, IF it is of the preferred, different type. Again, bolt rifles have a long successful track record of use on DG, though a second choice imo.

As far as charging DG, elephant can be turned without a CNS hit - it takes a big bore solid - buffalo and lion are renowned for not being deterred without a CNS shot. A solid is as good or better for a CNS shot than a soft. As for leopard, a charge will "only" come when you are following up a wounded one, and then you would have softs in both barrels anyway, the same is almost as true for lion, though accidental close encounters that could lead to a charge are not infrequent.

JPK

....................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by a.tinkerer:
Mechanical or inertia, selective or not - on dangerous game you may be betting your life on whether or not it's going to work.

First, with a mechanical trigger the bet is the same as that made with a double trigger rifle.

Second, each and every time DG is faced by the hunter with a bolt rifle he has half the chance of his rifle going off as a DR shooter, mechanical single trigger or double trigger. Bolt rifle hunters have not been killed in droves, eh! HMMM, Harland, Thomson, Groebler, Duckworth... something on order of 20,000 maybe 30,000 elephant between them, almost all killed with a 458wm bolt rifle - with a single trigger!!!!

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Gentlemen, I think some of you have lost the reasoning with the single trigger on a double rifle. Nobody has said that the single trigger is fail prone, quite the opposite!

I have a high-grade single-trigger 20 gauge SXS shotgon that quit shooting the left barrel twice due some hiccup with the trigger mechanism switching.

I have a between the wars pair of high grade English sidelock, two trigger 12ga shotguns. Gun No 2 quit shooting it's right barrel. I got it fixed!

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Andre Mertens:
Please read eagle27's post like this :

"Miroku belongs to Browning Intl and makes some of the Brownings.

Yes you are likely correct, back when I purchased mine Miroku was on its own and making guns under licence for Browning. Only purpose of my putting this in my post was to show that Miroku were a very well respected manufacturer of fine guns.

I have not been promoting single triggers over doubles (except for me will only ever be a single trigger) but pointing out that technically selective barrels have been around for years and do not need to have recoil (if they are inertia set) to operate as a single barrel in the event of a failure of one barrel. Some here were saying a single trigger double would be useless in the event of a barrel failure as you would need recoil to set the second barrel each time. My post was to point out, not so, single barrel operation with a single trigger on a double has been available for 30 years or more.

Could I indulge for a moment. How many double users have ever had a first barrel failure (likely a misfire) under a DG charge situation?
If you have, how did you react to that and were you able to overcome the phsycological factor in recovery from the shock of a misfire and bring your second shot 'effectively' into play.

We all subscribe to practice makes perfect and some here post videos of their practice or their hunt showing great reloading of doubles under pressure etc. How many practice for a misfire situation? How would you ever practice for this apart from someone else loading your gun and randomly inserting a snap cap in your first barrel. Even then you would at least be half expecting a misfire each time you pulled the trigger.
Try it in practice but with one of those running targets of a buffalo approaching at speed and having a misfire situation set up for you.

I have seen several misfire situations, not in DG charges, but normal deer hunting or on the range. The phsycological effect is dramatic and in every case the experienced hunter was slow to react to this totally unexpected event.

I would be comfortable in saying that there would not be to many hunters today in a DG charge who would react in a way needed to effectively get their second barrel into action in time in the event of a misfire. In these cases the instant availability of the second trigger is negated.

A video posted here somewhere of a PH having problems with his boltgun not ejecting properly and facing a buffalo charge with his client and him both shooting twice to drop the animal at their feet. The PH obviously knew he had the problem with his gun and could quite calmly manually pull the empty out and chamber a round for his second shot. Try that if unexpected!

Mechanical Reliability - the greatest prize in world sport, apart from a buffalo or an elephant down would have to be an Olympic gold medal, or any Olympic medal for that matter. How many double trigger shotguns do you see on the Olympic field where the utmost reliability is required.

PS - I used extensively double trigger shotguns for the first 20 years of my shooting life and some smaller calibre double trigger double rifles at times, but once I used a good quality single trigger O/U, this has been my preference for the last 30 years.

Of course each to his own but reliability needs to be kept in perspective.

Eagle,

I think a greater number of experience hunters could adequately handle a misfire or mechanical breakdown of the first barrel than you think.

For example, I have suffered a handful and more over the years while duck or goose hunting, both with a pump shotgun and with SxS double trigger guns, and, more commonly, an empty chamber, or a spent round in the chamber, but full magazine with my pump. I don't recall every event, but I know that I transition to the second trigger quickly, or to pumping the pump to load a round from the magazine. Fast enough to kill the duck or goose I was planning to kill, or at least quickly enough to kill one from the flock.

I can't imagine I am alone in this experience.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
Could I indulge for a moment. How many double users have ever had a first barrel failure (likely a misfire) under a DG charge situation?
If you have, how did you react to that and were you able to overcome the phsycological factor in recovery from the shock of a misfire and bring your second shot 'effectively' into play.

Yes with double triggers, but have never used a single trigger for hunting dangerous game! While hunting Cape buffalo it is not uncommon for the first shot to not put a buffalo down, and it is automatic to simply hit him again with the second barrel. Or fire the other barrel and break to re-load. If the rifle is broken open and there is no time for the re=load, and as Taylor says, you re-close the rifle and try to fire a double with a single trigger the rifle will re-set the right barrel again, and that barrel is still empty.

quote:

eagle27
I would be comfortable in saying that there would not be to many hunters today in a DG charge who would react in a way needed to effectively get their second barrel into action in time in the event of a misfire. In these cases the instant availability of the second trigger is negated.

Here is the problem with a single trigger double rifle! Folks who choose the single trigger to avoid a double discharge because they think it is not possible with a single trigger, and that is not the case. They are also under the misinformed idea that a single trigger is faster than a double trigger, and because of that mind set they are unduly befuddeled when they get a misfire on the first shot, and are puzzled as to what to do. That takes time, that they don’t have to sort it out if they are standing off something that may kill them

The fact is 90% of double rifle buyers who choose a single trigger and/or an O/U on a big bore double rifle are new to double rifles and because they think, mistakenly, that these things are a failsafe that automatically takes care of everything.

The problem with getting a dud round is you really do not know exactly why the rifle failed to fire, It could just be a dud, but it also could be a broken spring, or striker (firing pin) and with a single trigger that is inertia and not selective you could forget how to get the other barrel working. However if you did remember if you ever knew in the first place, that takes time you may not have.

IMO, it is not the single trigger that mechanically causes the problem, but the it is the fact that people who tend to choose automatic things also tend to think they will take care of all situations that arise, and are confused when they don’t!
.....................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
Could I indulge for a moment. How many double users have ever had a first barrel failure (likely a misfire) under a DG charge situation?
If you have, how did you react to that and were you able to overcome the phsycological factor in recovery from the shock of a misfire and bring your second shot 'effectively' into play.

Yes with double triggers, but have never used a single trigger for hunting dangerous game! While hunting Cape buffalo it is not uncommon for the first shot to not put a buffalo down, and it is automatic to simply hit him again with the second barrel. Or fire the other barrel and break to re-load. If the rifle is broken open and there is no time for the re=load, and as Taylor says, you re-close the rifle and try to fire a double with a single trigger the rifle will re-set the right barrel again, and that barrel is still empty.

quote:

eagle27
I would be comfortable in saying that there would not be to many hunters today in a DG charge who would react in a way needed to effectively get their second barrel into action in time in the event of a misfire. In these cases the instant availability of the second trigger is negated.

Here is the problem with a single trigger double rifle! Folks who choose the single trigger to avoid a double discharge because they think it is not possible with a single trigger, and that is not the case. They are also under the misinformed idea that a single trigger is faster than a double trigger, and because of that mind set they are unduly befuddeled when they get a misfire on the first shot, and are puzzled as to what to do. That takes time, that they don’t have to sort it out if they are standing off something that may kill them

The fact is 90% of double rifle buyers who choose a single trigger and/or an O/U on a big bore double rifle are new to double rifles and because they think, mistakenly, that these things are a failsafe that automatically takes care of everything.

The problem with getting a dud round is you really do not know exactly why the rifle failed to fire, It could just be a dud, but it also could be a broken spring, or striker (firing pin) and with a single trigger that is inertia and not selective you could forget how to get the other barrel working. However if you did remember if you ever knew in the first place, that takes time you may not have.

IMO, it is not the single trigger that mechanically causes the problem, but the it is the fact that people who tend to choose automatic things also tend to think they will take care of all situations that arise, and are confused when they don’t!
.....................................................................

Some valid points Mac, had a little laugh at your last one re people who choose automatic things Your point re re-closing a double with an empty chamber through having no time to reload, will still require the shooter to make a conscious decision to use his rear trigger and not reach for the front trigger, not much different I would contend for a competent single trigger user to snick the selector over to the other barrel if he has had to close on an empty chamber. I on occasion quickly do this when bird hunting where I want a different choked barrel to fire first. Often have a skeet choke first barrel and 3/4 second barrel. Of course we need to compare apples with apples and accept that if a single trigger user has used these guns for a number of years he should be just as skilled as a double trigger user would be with his gun. Can't compare a tyro single trigger user with a veteran double trigger user now can we

As said I'm not making a stand either way other than my personal preference is a single trigger but I think bringing mechanical reliability and operation into question for single triggers is a hard row to hoe today. I know we often look to the worst case scenario and imagine we will all be trampled under foot or impaled on a tusk, but how many of us would pack a parachute for the trip to Africa or more particularly for the charter flights into camp on the small planes? We are far in a way more likely to die in a plane crash or in a vehicle accident on the way to the airport than from our single or double trigger gun failing.

Eagle,

Which type of barrel selector do you use? I am familiar with two, the Berretta type with the tiny side to side slide on the safety and one where the whole safety slide is pushed slightly right or left to select to appropriate barrel as the safety is taken off for the shot.

I haven't mastered the Berretta style myself, but the whole safety style is quick and easy.

Selecting the rear trigger either because the right barrel is empty or has been fired, or for a different choke is second nature to anyone who has hunted much with a double trigger gun or rifle, or even shot clays where there is a second target that calls for un mounting and remounting, which is not unusual.

I believe that if I were to choose a single trigger double rifle I would want a mechanical, non selective trigger. IT would be easy enough to row the trigger twice to get the second barrel to fire, and damned quick.

JPK

I have to agree with John Taylor in that, if someone wants to give me a single trigger Westley Richards double rifle in an appropriate DG caliber, I would happily use it the rest of my life.

465H&H

You could afford to convert it to double triggers.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Eagle,

Which type of barrel selector do you use? I am familiar with two, the Berretta type with the tiny side to side slide on the safety and one where the whole safety slide is pushed slightly right or left to select to appropriate barrel as the safety is taken off for the shot.

I haven't mastered the Berretta style myself, but the whole safety style is quick and easy.

Selecting the rear trigger either because the right barrel is empty or has been fired, or for a different choke is second nature to anyone who has hunted much with a double trigger gun or rifle, or even shot clays where there is a second target that calls for un mounting and remounting, which is not unusual.

I believe that if I were to choose a single trigger double rifle I would want a mechanical, non selective trigger. IT would be easy enough to row the trigger twice to get the second barrel to fire, and damned quick.

JPK

The whole safety slides from side to side on a Miroku. I made my safety non-automatic.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

Some valid points Mac, had a little laugh at your last one re people who choose automatic things Your point re re-closing a double with an empty chamber through having no time to reload, will still require the shooter to make a conscious decision to use his rear trigger and not reach for the front trigger, not much different I would contend for a competent single trigger user to snick the selector over to the other barrel if he has had to close on an empty chamber.

The first point about automatic things IS mine, and in a large amount of people who start out in any endeavor, with something that is automatic from cars to guns expects the thing to do it better than they could themselves. You would be surprised at the number of 25 yr olds that can’t drive a stick shift car! The second point on the short open with no re-load is not mine but is from John Taylor.

quote:

I on occasion quickly do this when bird hunting where I want a different choked barrel to fire first. Often have a skeet choke first barrel and 3/4 second barrel. Of course we need to compare apples with apples and accept that if a single trigger user has used these guns for a number of years he should be just as skilled as a double trigger user would be with his gun. Can't compare a tyro single trigger user with a veteran double trigger user now can we?

A very good point for a person that is used to hunting birds with a single trigger O/U or S/S shotgun. It is easy to perform the change in the situation you described, However, in that instance you are simply doing something that you thought you wanted to do, so you did it. No problem there!

However there is a big difference between performing something you decided to do, with the target being a little 10 oz bird and the big bore double rifle suddenly failing to work, when staring at a 8 ton elephant closing on you fast and suddenly the right barrel goes “CLICK” and you suddenly experience tunnel vision, and become fiddle fingers! If the tyro has never been in the second issue, then he is likely to crap his pants, and break the trigger off trying to get the rifle to fire! In that case even a person who has been hunting birds all his life with a single trigger is not likely to do so well in that case! what ya think????.

quote:

As said I'm not making a stand either way other than my personal preference is a single trigger but I think bringing mechanical reliability and operation into question for single triggers is a hard row to hoe today. I know we often look to the worst case scenario and imagine we will all be trampled under foot or impaled on a tusk,

but how many of us would pack a parachute for the trip to Africa or more particularly for the charter flights into camp on the small planes? We are far in a way more likely to die in a plane crash or in a vehicle accident on the way to the airport than from our single or double trigger gun failing.

That scenario is exactly where even the best trained experienced shooter is likely to loose it, and become a basket case! As I said bird hunting is no hedge against being able to perform under those conditions. You may hunt your whole life without being in a tight with a stomp, bite and scratch and when it happens the best hedge is to have the best failsafe rifle you can buy or build, because then and there is where you need as little to think about as it is possible to operate your equipment!

Having a single trigger is a choice, as is a double rifle in the first place, and there are two reasons most double rifles are S/S rather than O/U, and have double triggers rather than a single trigger. Over time the double trigger, the S/S, and a manual safety have been found to be LESS PROBLEMATIC, when the crap hits the fan with dangerous game. Most O/U shotgun people do not believe this, and so follow through with the same platform for hunting dangerous game. Unfortunately, in some cases it sometimes is brought to them in a very unpleasant way.

When you get down to brass tacks, when choosing a rifle for dangerous game, the simpler you can make the rifle the better! S/S with double triggers, manual safety, that fits the owner like a glove, so that when the rifle is brought to battery, with the shooters eyes closed, and when the eyes are opened the shooter will be looking directly at the lined up sights! The old acronym applies here, KISS ie (“KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID”) the fewer hoops you have to jump through the better!
.....................................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

Over time the double trigger, the S/S, and a manual safety have been found to be LESS PROBLEMATIC, when the crap hits the fan with dangerous game. Most O/U shotgun people do not believe this, and so follow through with the same platform for hunting dangerous game. Unfortunately, in some cases it sometimes is brought to them in a very unpleasant way.

Can you provide any factual details of hunters getting stomped while using single trigger O/U double rifles, where the single trigger or the O/U was the cause of the accident or death?

What is a more common occurance? A problem with firing the first barrel on a single trigger gun or having a double trigger gun double? The first problem will be the quickest to be solved.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:

Can you provide any factual details of hunters getting stomped while using single trigger O/U double rifles, where the single trigger or the O/U was the cause of the accident or death?

5seventy, here we go again!
No! You know I can't tell you anyone that was stomped because of a single trigger, or an over under double rifle nor can you tell me the details of the reason being the cause of anyone being stomped when hunting with a double trigger double rifle or bolt rifle because it was a control round feed, or a push feed rifle of any kind. There are many people hurt and killed in the fields of Africa, and many are not well investigated, as to the actual cause of what happened. That is Africa!

IMO it is up to the individual to make sure his rifles are properly set up, and know what to do when something goes wrong, or stay out of the D-Game fields. That is up to everyone no matter what type of weapon he chooses. All I’m trying to do is make people aware of some of the things to watch out for when choosing a particular platform for hunting dangerous game. I couldn’t care less what others choose, but where is the harm in the warnings? They are free!

The PHs, in many cases, have far less reliable rifles than clients do. Their hedge is they are aware of the pitfalls of the weapon they use every day in the field and the client isn’t in many cases. So the PH is better prepared when something goes wrong! All I’m saying the client needs to be just as mentally prepared so he is able to pull the PH’s nuts out of the fire if he gets in trouble. There is no law that says the PH will not be the first one hit, and that leaves the client to shoot something off him.

There is simply a difference between the mindset when hunting non-dangerous game, and hunting things that are willing, and able to kill you if you make a mistake, and/or take too much time being confused when something goes wrong. It is the extreme happenings that need to be prepared for, with your equipment before something does happen. That is all I'm saying here. You can’t practice that drill if you are not aware they exist! Hopefully the hunter can hunt all his life without a mishap, but Mr. Murphy tends to make it happen at the oddest times. The first time out may very well be the time!

....................................................................BYE

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

I can't tell you anyone that was stomped because of a single trigger, or an over under double rifle

Well there you go, that answers the question.
Ta.

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

I can't tell you anyone that was stomped because of a single trigger, or an over under double rifle

Well there you go, that answers the question.
Ta.

How about the other half of that quote below? That also answers a question!

quote:

....NOR can YOU tell me the details and the reason being the cause of anyone being stomped when hunting with a double trigger double rifle or bolt rifle because it was a control round feed, or a push feed rifle of any kind.

Well There you go!

........................... BYE!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

+1

Now we are down to discussing O/U doubles with single triggers?

Double Heresy!!

Double triggers and why, in my opinion just like a car two brakes and not one. If the brake fails we go to the emergency brake. In a DG rifle the double trigger is the same. One fails the second trigger is there to fire the other barrel.
Single triggers work by recoil and if the first fails well you know the rest of the story.
I was a bolt shooter and O/U shooter, but I have taught myself to shoot a side by side and I am damn good at it. Shooting reloading, mutliple shots. This was all done by practice and understanding the principles of the double gun. I worked at it.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by retreever:
Double triggers and why, in my opinion just like a car two brakes and not one. If the brake fails we go to the emergency brake. In a DG rifle the double trigger is the same. One fails the second trigger is there to fire the other barrel.
Single triggers work by recoil and if the first fails well you know the rest of the story.
I was a bolt shooter and O/U shooter, but I have taught myself to shoot a side by side and I am damn good at it. Shooting reloading, mutliple shots. This was all done by practice and understanding the principles of the double gun. I worked at it.

Mike

Mike is correct in all except in the bold passage above. That is true of the inertia type, but not with the mechanical type. The mechanical type is reset by the pulled trigger moving back forward as pressure is lit off the trigger. Still it has draw-backs in some different ways from double triggers, and inertia single triggers as well.

Like Mike, myself and most of the DRSS guys I have known for some years prefer double triggers! on a double rifle chambered for a round intended for dangerous game. FYI, Mike is not blowing hot wind when he says he is damn good with a double trigger double rifle, I've witnessed first hand his prowess with a double trigger double rifle!

..........Make the shot Mike! .........

Mike is 100% correct and a fantastic shot who has been there and truly done that.

To use a big bore double rifle on dangerous game is not something which is able to be justified by any logic.

If you one is not capable of learning to use double triggers then you either have not practiced enough or you have other problems.

Mac, there was certainly NO TROLLING INVOLVED on my part which led you to write the following quote concerning single triggers and O/U's.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Most O/U shotgun people do not believe this, and so follow through with the same platform for hunting dangerous game. Unfortunately, in some cases it sometimes is brought to them in a very unpleasant way.

That little gem is all yours, and I definitely did not coerce you into saying it.

I DID ask if you could verify your claim (" it sometimes is brought to them in a very unpleasant way") by providing any FACTUAL DETAILS.

You replied that no you could not.
That answered my question.

If someone is going to be called a a troll for attempting to get to the facts, truth etc concerning double rifles, then things have got pretty sad indeed.

Nuff said.

I will remind everyone, as 465H&H did earlier in this thread, that Sutherland used a pair of single trigger WR's and killed a hell of a lot of elephants - and retired alive, iirc.

There is perfect, and that is a two trigger, back action sxs side lock with hand detachable locks and spare locks in the case, and an infallible lever forearm release, or a WR two trigger drop lock sxs with spare locks in the case, lever fore arm release, both rifles with spare strikers in the case, a set of fitted turn screws, a couple of spare front sights in the trap grip cap, set screw for the rear sight, intercepting sears, in your choice rimmed cartridges with your choice of ejectors or extractors.

And then there are the guns that actually get used for hunting DG.

A single, mechanical trigger, o/u DG rifle that the hunter is familiar and comfortable with is better than a bolt rifle, and bolt rifles have been used with great success almost as long as DR's.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by 5seventy:
I DID ask if you could verify your claim (" it sometimes is brought to them in a very unpleasant way") by providing any FACTUAL DETAILS.

You replied that no you could not.
That answered my question.


Nuff said.

The fact is 5seventy, nobody can give details of anything that becomes general assessment of mindset that causes injury or failing of another individual unless you are there for every mishap. You are no more able to give factual information of the number or types of mishaps that occur if you are not there than I am.

It simply stands to reason that MOST people who use double rifles to hunt dangerous game with a double do so with a S/S double rifle with double triggers.

In my experience, a very large number of the people I see asking about their first double rifle are the only group that states a preference for an O/U and single triggers. With that in mind, one would normally think those are novice and far more likely to get into trouble with that choice, along with inexperience with dangerous game. But you knew that didn't you?

I think the only reason you came to AR from NE is to cause trouble! That IMO smells strangely like a TROLL. You are the master of the straw man attack with questions nobody can answer like the old straw man question, "When did you stop beating your wife?" No mater how you answer you look like a wife beater. Be advised, I will not play your STRAW MAN game.

In almost twenty years on the internet I've never put anyone on "IGNOR" till Trax, another Australian who came here from NE causing all sorts of havoc, and it didn't involve me personally, but I got sick of his BS, and chose not to read anything he had to say. Congratulations 5seventy, you are No 2, so rave on!

Too bad because you are one of the most well versed people on British double rifles I know of, and you could be of great value on this website instead starting a donnybrook. It would be far better to simply disagree and state your opinion rather than your constant PONTIFICATION and bird dog stalking! That is a little tiring Mate!

................................................................................IGNOR! NUF said!

Sutherland, one of how many thousands? If you look real hard you will find another few?

quote:

Originally posted by GOB:
Sutherland, one of how many thousands? If you look real hard you will find another few?

No, as many elephants as he killed he was more like one of maybe a hundred.

But one of a hundred or one of thousands, single triggers worked for him. He hunted elephants in thick bush, rather than more open terrain as some did, and retired alive.

"This is the way everyone has to do it because this is the way everyone does it." That is pretty poor reasoning, and we'd still be shooting elephants with 2 and 4 bores if it was universal. Thankfully it is not.

Moreover, the more some on this thread struggle to disqualify a single trigger and justify double triggers only, the less logical their arguments become.

JPK