While at the SCI show I stopped by the Cabelas booth to nose around a bit. Lo and behold they had several Sabatti doubles on hand. My first thought was that after all the bad reports on here and else where they (Cabelas) had some big kahonies to show up with them at this venue.

Any way, since I had never had a chance to handle one of these gems I decided to take a look at them. Actually they aren't a bad looking gun. Their not in the same league as my Krieghoff, but not bad looking. Certainly much better than the Remington/Baikal that I have. Wood to metal fit was pretty decent although that funky "optowood" left a bit to be desired.

So as I'm looking the muzzles over with a pocket flash lite, the head (supposedly) Gun Library buyer/manager for all Cabelas stores comes over to discuss what I'm looking for.
When I mentioned all the reports, findings, complaints, etc. about the ground muzzle crowns Sabatti did to attempt regulation,
this "manager" told me that all of the Sabattis that Cabelas had in inventory were all sent back to Sabatti to be rebarrelled and regulated "properly". All of the guns they now have in stock are supposedly done right regarding regulation. I asked if they sent the guns back to Italy or to EAA/USSG for the rework. He told me that EAA/USSG wasn't involved and that Cabelas was dealing strictly with Sabatti on the refit.

Has anyone else heard any thing about this? If so fact so, maybe they can redeem themselves. If they can be made to shoot good they'd be a decent beater gun.

Here is a picture of a Sabatti 450/400 I did some research on for a fellow AR member 2 weeks ago at the Buda, TX Cabelas. This rifle was advertised as having been sent back to be properly repaired.

Look at the right barrel and tell me what you think. If having a hard time deciding, rotate it 90 degrees.

Todd

Maybe it was the red wine I had for dinner but something looks a bit off.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Here is a picture of a Sabatti 450/400 I did some research on for a fellow AR member 2 weeks ago at the Buda, TX Cabelas. This rifle was advertised as having been sent back to be properly repaired.

Look at the right barrel and tell me what you think. If having a hard time deciding, rotate it 90 degrees.

Todd

I don't think it is the wine, that right barrel is definitely egg shaped, and is what I suspect is the case with all the others that they claim to have been sent back to Sabatti for a re-barrel or fixed and re-regulated. I suspect they where simply put back on the shelf to sell to someone who doesn't know better!

The large spaces filled with solder around a very flimsy wedge looks like cheap shotgun work! Too bad, because Cabellas had a chance to put a lot of double rifle hunters in the fields of North America.

All sabatti had to do was junk the glitz and just build a well regulated double rifle to sell for the same price! The absolute worse place to cut cost on a double rifle is in regulation. A double rifle that is not properly regulated is not worth any price no matter how cheap!

So who's making elliptical bullets ?? Seems to me if my old memory still works that this idea was one invented a very long time ago .

Lancaster elliptical bore which also had a gain twist !!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Here is a picture of a Sabatti 450/400 I did some research on for a fellow AR member 2 weeks ago at the Buda, TX Cabelas. This rifle was advertised as having been sent back to be properly repaired.

Look at the right barrel and tell me what you think. If having a hard time deciding, rotate it 90 degrees.

Todd

I don't think it is the wine, that right barrel is definitely egg shaped, and is what I suspect is the case with all the others that they claim to have been sent back to Sabatti for a re-barrel or fixed and re-regulated. I suspect they where simply put back on the shelf to sell to someone who doesn't know better!

The large spaces filled with solder around a very flimsy wedge looks like cheap shotgun work! Too bad, because Cabellas had a chance to put a lot of double rifle hunters in the fields of North America.

All sabatti had to do was junk the glitz and just build a well regulated double rifle to sell for the same price! The absolute worse place to cut cost on a double rifle is in regulation. A double rifle that is not properly regulated is not worth any price no matter how cheap!

+1

It is easy to tell if the muzzles have been ground; look at the rifling; it will be ground away on one side. Good ones will have sharp rifling all around. Please take a sharp picture of your muzzles. I was just at Cabelas in Dundee and bought a new 450 NE; it has perfect muzzles; the guys at the store were well aware of the issue. Another good way to see funneled muzzles is to stick a bullet in the muzzle; the funneled rifling will stick out. I previously had a 450 with both muzzles ground, so I know what they look like. Of course, once ground, the only way to fix them is to cut the barrels off and regulate them properly, in which case your barrels will be less than 24 inches. I would be suspect of any "repaired" rifle. but all the new ones I looked at had sharp muzzles so I hope Sabatti and Cabelas learned their lesson. It is a great rifle for $5k as long as you get one that shoots; there will always be those who will disparage things on them no matter what they do.

I stop in at my Cabelas once or twice a week and they have the same 2 guns, 45/70 and 470 NE, that have never left the store since I looked at them a long while back and the muzzles are still ground.

Went back to Cabelas this week and asked to see the 45/70 in the rack.He gave it to me and the inner edge of one barrel still looks thin to me.I asked to see the regulation target for that gun and he took the gun and came back several minute later with a
box that looked like it had been opened and resealed several times. He opened it and it contained another "new" gun.I asked to see the target for the rack gun, "I won't sell you that gun". Why I asked, "because this is the gun I'm selling you".OK, so I look at the target and first pair are a 7 inch approx. spread at 11 and 4 with a final regulation of 2 inches at 3.
Going through the paper work was what appeared to be a return authorization and shipping receipt from a customer in another Chicago suburb.Obviously no one looked at it except to see the gun was whole on return. I would love a 45/70 DR but don't trust Cabelas on the Sabbatis yet.

Lilguy,

Why not take a look at a Siace 45-70 double. They are very nice guns and shoot well. There are 3 levels of grade and the middle grade guns are really nice.

Sam

Sam, the Siaces do look like nice rifles, although I'm not wild about the pistol grip on the 9,3 -.45-70 models.

Looking at the photo of the muzzles is deceptive - I measured BOTH bores on my computer screen and they both are elliptical by about the same amount.

Might it be that the photo was taken at a slight angle to the muzzles.

Been there and sent two 500 NE back. I found the easiest and best way to be sure on the bores is to insert a bullet of the proper caliber into the muzzle end and then take a good look around the bullet. Any metal removal will stand out and be readily determined.

quote:

Originally posted by Oxon:
Looking at the photo of the muzzles is deceptive - I measured BOTH bores on my computer screen and they both are elliptical by about the same amount.

Might it be that the photo was taken at a slight angle to the muzzles.

I took those pics. It does appear to be at a slight angle when you look at the front sight. So here is a picture of my Merkel 500 at the same angle, (at least my best attempt to match the angle). Do you see a difference between the two rifles? I do!



Look, I have no dog in this fight. I wanted to purchase that rifle myself which is why I was familiar with it when the fellow AR member asked me to give him an assessment. This rifle is listed by Cabelas as being returned and repaired due to ground muzzles. It is one of only a couple of "Returned" Sabatti's that I've seen with a reduced price. In this case, $4,499 instead of $5,499. It's was also listed as having barrels 1/2 inch shorter than standard.

There is no doubt that the rifle HAD ground muzzles and as I reported to the AR member, the rifling looked OK in the light I had to work with. But there was NO doubt whatsoever that the right muzzle was not round.

Todd, I apologize - I am not trying to argue or to claim you're wrong but if you just measure the right-left and top-bottom dimensions of both those barrels you'll find that both are elliptical and approximately the same.

The same is true for the Merkel barrel pix you show - both of these also appear elliptical in the picture if you measure them rather than just look at the picture. In the case of the Merkel the left barrel is more elliptical than the right.

I think this is all due to way the pix were taken.

Did you actually measure the eccentricity on the Cabella gun?

Again, I have no reason to try to offend you. I do not doubt what you saw when you examined the gun in person but I don't think these pix show it.

Oxon,

Not offended at all. Pictures can sometimes be less than definitive. I did look that rifle over pretty well at Cabelas though and it just wasn't right. Like I stated, I really wanted to purchase it myself.

More importantly, Cabelas stated that it had been repaired because of ground muzzles. If they did indeed cut them back, it appears to me that it wasn't done properly. If anyone is still interested in the rifle, I think Cabelas will ship it to a store near you for $25 or so.

I AM SO OVER THIS SABATTI FIASCO!

Regulate them properly, add 20% to the price and you would have a GOOD double gun for the masses.This is what happens when bean counters in marketing trump experts in the field.Trying to backpedal now and fool customers a second time does not reflect well on Cabelas even with this being a small group in the hunting fraternity.
Thanks for the information Siaces.

The store near BR La. Has a full rack of new doubles
I did not notice any ground muzzels.
Some of the wood looked outstanding for the price.
They are painting the stocks to look like high
end wood and calling it photo enhanced
More smoke and mirrors instead of value.

JD

Don't look or photograph straight down into the muzzles; look and photo at an angle so you can see and show the rifling coming (or not) clear out too the crown. If it is ground away on any side, it will be easy to see. Of course, you have to take 3 or 4 pictures that way, one from North, East, South, and West. And pics must be sharply focused.

Sorry, no thanks. I'll save my pennies and buy a rifle with real wood that has been properly regulated. But I have to admit, that paste on stuff looks pretty good from a distance. Kind of like fake ...[deference to Saeed].

Most of the Sabatti guns that I've seen have have pretty decent wood for guns in that price range.

The enhanced wood thing is nothing new. I've seen muzzle loading rifles made in the 1840's with fake tiger stripe maple grain. Beretta used to offer the photo enhanced stuff as well. A friend had an SKB sxs that he beat up grouse hunting and decided to refinish. All the nice dark streaking in the buttstock came off with the finish.

I don't like it either, but evidently some do or gun companies wouldn't offer it.

On the subject of the appearance of the muzzles on any double gun.

I think you need to physically measure the inside diameters or look for the rifling (or lack thereof) all the way around as DPCD has already stated.

If the barrels have been struck by hand they are not always perfectly round at the muzzles. Your eye will pick up the difference in wall thickness but you may perceive it as an oval bore.

Unfortunately, in the case of the Sabatti rifles, sometimes it is.

I'm the AR member that asked Todd to take a look at that Sabatti 450/400. I asked becuase after emails and phone calls about that particular double it sounded like it might be one of the "good" ones.

As a background, I went through it all with my first Sabatti 450/400:

Click Here for some testing of my Sabatti 450/400

Click here for some other notes on my Sabatti 450/400

Click Here for Final Verdict

It's a lot of information and experience but the short story with that particular double:
1. Dremel regulated;
2. Factory ammo did go to poa but those rounds from the Dremel regulated barrel were keyholing;
3. Did not regulate with any other bullet with any load;
4. Was returned to Cabelas for rebarrel and re-regulation;
5. Cabelas returned it to EAA who stated they would return it to Sabatti for re-barrel and re-regulation;
6. Returned from EAA to Cabelas and from Cabelas to me with same barrels though cut shorter and remaining evidence of removal of lands;
7. Returned to Cabelas for full refund.

Because I believe that there are some very good, well-regulated Sabatti doubles out there, I have remained on the look-out for one in 450/400. Recently I drove to Hamburg, PA to see another in 450/400 that was reported to have the full 24" barrels and not have ground muzzles. 3 hours each way and I came home empty handed. Because the barrels were a bit less than 24" (I brought a tape measure with me) and there were missing lands on one barrel that could only be appreciated using a magnifying lense and flashlight (which I used).

Todd took photos and sent them to me and I am quite convinced that one barrel has been ground. He thought the same when he had it in his hands though didn't want to influence my perspective so didn't say anything until I asked about one barrel in particular that looked strange.

Now I am still not "done" with Sabatti double rifles. In fact, I had one in 450NE that had perfectly round muzzles with zero muzzle grinding, that was well regulated with factory ammo and shot all of the handloads I whipped up with great aplomb. That Sabatti went to Africa for elephant in the hands of another AR member who has been thrilled with it in every way. Sam Rose has a 500NE that is one of the good ones as well. So they are out there, you just have to be careful.

And just to clear it up a bit further, I am not merely speaking about the "roundness" of the muzzles, I am speaking particularly about the missing lands that extend down from the muzzle as much as 1/2".
This can clearly be seen in some of the pictures Michael458 took and posted in his thread which is linked above.

Many of you already know, but my experience mirrors Doc's albeit my rifle shot well in spite of the dremel tool regulation. Also, Cabelas' service was impeccable:

We all thought it was too good to be true, and it was. Move on!

Only the small frames have (some of them) opto-wood (photo enhanced grain. The large frames are all walnut, some with good figure. I like my Sabatti and "we" are far from being through with them.

Please, no more Sabatti talk. It gives me heartburn when all the Sabattis clutter up the double rifle threads on Guns International.

For what you pay for a Sabatti, you can get a very nice bolt rifle. For not much more you can get a very nice double like a Chapuis, Krieghoff, Merkel, or a very nice Searcy. There is a Searcy in the classifieds for $8,500. If you can't afford or don't want to spend the money on a double, buy a bolt gun. If you can, buy something a bit better. It costs more to buy a properly regulated double but it is well worth it. All this Sabatti talk makes my ears bleed.

10-4

C'mon Biebs and D.B.!
Let it be.
What would you think if I suggested that everybody stop posting their POS Contenders and No.1s on the single shot forum?
How about telling someone that if they cannot afford a proper bolt gun (Mauser) to shitcan their Remchesters. Maybe they should buy a Ruger 10/22 instead since that is exactly not what they want.
I can tell you that most big bore English doubles will not shoot as good or any better than Jorge's Sabatti will.
I bet that the majority of the Sabatti buyers are well pleased with their guns.

If you got one that shoots well, then you got a bargain, for sure. But the shortcut way they tried to create regulation by grinding the rifling, and worse, the way they have dealt with customers with "repairs" to these rifles, makes me wish they'd go belly-up and get out of the market. I have nothing at all against competing in the market at the lower end, price-wise...it keeps all the other makers honest. But when you resort to the tactics they have to "support" the product, it's not very short of actual fraud.

I am tired as well, of all the Sabatti bashing; yes, they certainly made mistakes, but from all I hear, Cabelas is standing by them all. Mine shoots quite well, and of the hundreds sold so far, (mine is 7xx) only a relatively few are bad and are being take back with no questions. I do have and have owned more expensive DRs, but I like this one too. To seriously suggest that everyone buy a DR costing twice as much, or not buy one at all, when $5k is a lot of money for most people, is pure snobbery. There seems to be only a few on this forum who, while not owning one, delight in bad mouthing them. As an arm-chair sport, it is certainly allowed, but it does no good to re-state your feelings about Sabattis over and over, every time someone posts a comment about them. We know how you feel, and the responses have become predictable. So, until banned by the owner or moderator, I will continue to post good things about my Sabatti .450 regardless of how some may or may not interpret them.

Yes, there are people who are happy with their Sabattis. Then you have people who claimed how great they are, yet still returned them. Finally you have the group who ended up with a rifle not regulated properly.

Some people bash them and never owned one, thats the internet.

But for the most part it is the people on this and other forum's who identified the muzzle ground regulation issues and have helped others avoid the mistake, or identify they had a faulty rifle and returned it. No one can deny these unfavorable reviews have helped others avoid a costly mistake.

I'll give Sabatti credit, they have tossed out the fact doubles do not have to be super expensive. I believe this has helped keep other manufactors and their prices in check.

Just my two cents worth.

It sure seems there are some guys being overly sensitive about these rifles. For me, I'm trying to be objective. The price point on the Sabatti rifles keeps me looking at them. I really do want a knock around double that I don't have to worry about letting my sons hunt with. So I'm not pro or con on them. I am however, skeptical. If it weren't for the fact that Cabelas is standing behind them, I'd be "over" them as well. But the fact that they claim a rifle has been repaired when it obviously has not, makes me skeptical.

Some other issues of concern is that many seem to not shoot to the regulation demonstrated on the targets that come with them. I'll say it here and now, I'll NEVER shoot factory Hornady ammo at anything that has the ability to stomp or bite me. I reload everything I shoot and hunt with. So the reports of the ones that do shoot well, but only doing so with factory Hornady ammo, also makes me skeptical of the potential hassle being worth it. But that price keeps me looking!

If you have one that shoots well, but has ground muzzles, please realize the limitations of that weapon. 1) It is NOT suitable for Dangerous Game as the rifle is only putting a hole in the paper at the regulated range, it is not stabilizing that pill which is necessary for proper penetration. 2) The regulation range is not the point at which the bullets cross and being diverging. Rather, it is the range at which a group from the right barrel and a group from the left barrel are deemed acceptable. The rifle should be capable of shooting accurately (for a double) at ranges beyond that. If one barrel is only hitting the paper at the proper place at the regulation range due to induced yaw, and then continuing to yaw beyond that, it is a worthless rifle IMO.

The fact that these issues do exist on some Sabatti rifles, and not just one or two, is an objective fact; not speculation. How a person feels about this fact is another matter. For me, I'm on the fence about whether or not the potential hassle is worth taking a shot (no pun intended) at one of these weapons. I don't know. A bit more research is needed I suppose.

But please don't tell me that I can or cannot talk about the rifles here or anywhere else for that matter. I think the discussion on the issue is valuable. I suspect that pressure will eventually result in Sabatti correcting the issue, or ceasing to make them. Either of those outcomes is better than the current crap shoot surrounding these rifles at this point, IMHO.

No one should keep a Sabatti with ground muzzles; those ones need to be sent back as a lesson to Cabelas, USSG, and Sabatti regulate them correctly. And I don't mean "repaired", which is specious at best. The Cabelas I dealt with, Dundee, is definitely aware of the situation and seems anxious to satisfy the customer. Really, I see no risk in buying one, which I did.

With reference to the regulation process. The second of two 45/70's I looked at had crowns that "looked" ok.The test target had a hole set at least 7 inches apart and a final set 2 inches apart. How would they have regulated that gun. I walked because it had a return authorization in the owners info pack. The first gun they would not show me the target or sell me the gun.If I found a gun with one set of holes in the area the size oh my palm I'd try it.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
No one should keep a Sabatti with ground muzzles; those ones need to be sent back as a lesson to Cabelas, USSG, and Sabatti regulate them correctly. And I don't mean "repaired", which is specious at best. The Cabelas I dealt with, Dundee, is definitely aware of the situation and seems anxious to satisfy the customer. Really, I see no risk in buying one, which I did.

Well, now we have an AR member getting the run around for over 5 weeks concerning his refund for a returned Sabatti. See here:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...0101804/m/7371023071


That does it for me! I'm out. The risk is too great!

And he is still waiting on his check. Just an update here:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...0101804/m/7371023071


Again, this will probably get resolved but has placed the seed of risk in my mind concerning purchasing one of these guns.

I have been looking at Sabatti's more closely here lately. Some of the recent talk would appear to indicate that Sabatti and or Cabela's has become aware of the concerns presented by ground or oblong muzzles. Almost all of the Sabatti DR listed in Cabela's on line Gun Library show targets with "final regulation" noted. One target has two shots in the lower left outside of the circles with the final regulation shots in the upper right but closer together. A change of probably more than 12 inches. The sad thing is that there was one target with two shots less the two inches apart but low and to the left of center. The "final regulation shots" were farther apart and farther away from center to the upper right. The original shots looked better!

I e-mailed Cabela's-Buda and asked about muzzle grinding. Here's their response:

Attached are a couple photos of the Sabatti you have inquired about. Although the muzzle openings appear symmetrical, there is a suggestion that the left muzzle has been slightly ground for regulation. Though sometimes unsightly, ground regulating offers an effective process at a lower cost to the manufacturer and is the primary reason for Sabatti s price point. If you care to contact us at the number below, one of our Gun Library staff can assist with any further questions.