Considering the disadvantage of a non-rimmed cartridge for doubles, has anyone ever had or heard of problems with extraction of factory loads on a 375 H&H double?

Yes, but unfortunately I can

NOT recall the specific source.

I've put over 600 rounds through a Brno U/O with no ejections problems. It has had to be put back on face once (just recently).

ever had a problem with 243Win or 318 WR either.

mike

I had a Heym 88B in 375H&H and NEVER had one malfunction. I will admit I usually kept the ejectors set to extract as I didn't like catching or searching for the brass.

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:
Considering the disadvantage of a non-rimmed cartridge for doubles, has anyone ever had or heard of problems with extraction of factory loads on a 375 H&H double?

Steve,
These questions sound like those of someone thinking of making a DR purchase....?

There doesn't seem to be a factual ocurrence of rimless cartridge problems in a DR. There's a bit of anecdotal stuff floating around(HEARSAY.) Look a certain guy's purchase of a 458 WinMag DR a few years ago, all the X-Spurts came out of the woodwork and told the guy that the 458 WinMag wouldn't work and he had to get it rechambered and re-regulated to 450 NE. Ask him how his ele hunt went.

In his book SAFARI RIFLES, Bodington tells of Pro in Africa who

had an ejection problem with a .458 Win Mag chambered DR.

quote:

Originally posted by ROSCOE:

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:
Considering the disadvantage of a non-rimmed cartridge for doubles, has anyone ever had or heard of problems with extraction of factory loads on a 375 H&H double?

Steve,
These questions sound like those of someone thinking of making a DR purchase....?

Roscoe, you are correct.

I know of 2 a O/U Brno 375 and a Keighoff big five. Both have had multi rounds(800-1,000) with no problems. This has fueled my next double gun buy. A blaser S-2 in a 375.

505ED

Steve,
Believe you and I live in the same town. If you would like to get together and shoot some Doubles let me know.

Roscoe

Roscoe, pm sent

I believe that 475Guy is refering to me and my 458 double rifle. The one that's not supposed to eject or extract reliably, the one that can't stand the high pressure.

11 elephants, 4 cape buffalo, 1 zebra, 1 baboon, 1 klipspringer, about 800 rounds - no extraction or ejection issues, in fact, no issues at all.

Still, I had the option of rechambering to 450 NE 3 1/4". You won't have the option of rechambering to 375 Fl since the 375H&H case has the shoulder farther forward. So shoot the rifle a bunch to ensure its reliability before you finalize the purchase.

JPK

I've had a Heym in 375 H&H, and I own a Merkle in 30-06 I have shot 600-800 rounds through both guns no problems, I still prefer rims on dangerous game DR's, maybe it's nostalgia because it's not fear of the tiny ejector pieces breaking or sliding over the rim. Confidence in your weapon of choice is really the primary issue, shoot it 300-500 times before you hunt with it then put it to work.

Thanks. I bought the rifle-- a Merkel 140-2.1, it hasn't arrived yet. I plan on shooting several hundred rounds thru it this spring. Plan on first hunt for boar on a game ranch over in Calvin, OK. Then, maybe an Argentine buff, boar, capybara hunt this June/July.

Please repor thow it shoots and functions!

Congrats!

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by 475Guy:
There doesn't seem to be a factual ocurrence of rimless cartridge problems in a DR. There's a bit of anecdotal stuff floating around(HEARSAY.) Look a certain guy's purchase of a 458 WinMag DR a few years ago, all the X-Spurts came out of the woodwork and told the guy that the 458 WinMag wouldn't work and he had to get it rechambered and re-regulated to 450 NE. Ask him how his ele hunt went.

That's wishful thinking at best. I've personally had failures to extract with two rimless doubles, a .318 and a 9.3X62. I know guys who've had failures with others, but it was those two that cured me of the idea.

Since the .375 Belted Rimless represents a 34% increase in chamber pressure over that of the Flanged Magnum, I wouldn't choose it for a double for that reason alone.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
You won't have the option of rechambering to 375 Fl since the 375H&H case has the shoulder farther forward.

The Belted Rimless doesn't have the shoulder farther forward than the Flanged Magnum. They're both 2.4" to the shoulder. The Flanged Magnum just has a longer neck. The rechambering problem is the belt.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Regardless of Personal choice...Please welcome Steve to the double rifle club. I expect he will own another in the next 2 years!

Dump question, for non rimmed cartridges in doubles is it feasible to use a moon-clip sort of setup ? In the same way they are used in revolvers. The only downside would be having to reload both chambers no matter what.
I don't own a double , don't know much about a double just posing a question.

The question is not "IF" it will fail in some way, the qestion is "WHEN"!

Anyway, welcome to the DRSS SGraves155! No matter what double you have it is still better than a bolt rifle, in a Close encounter of the "BITE BACK" kind.

The doubles with a chambering for 375H&H, belted rimless,magnum, can be re-chambered for the flanged 375 Mag, by back boreing the chamber just far enough to illimenate the belt area. Fill it with a thick walled sleeve, and re-chamber this area with a 375FL mag reamer, at the same time the throat can be lengthened to the neck length of the flanged neck. The area of the flanged case in the sleeve is not a problem, as it is the thickest portion of the case, near the web, and the 375 fl mag is 30% lower pressure than the belted rimless mag. Of course a new set of ejector/extractor will have to be made. It isn't as easy as with the 458 Win Mag re-chambering, but is definately do-able, with good results!

Personally I simple would not buy a 375H&H Mag double rifle at all, but that's just me!! Anything that even hints at compromiseing the relaibility of a double rifle sets my nearves a tingleing, and my heart jumping in my chest!

Mac and Roscoe, thanks for the welcome and the info. If I run into problems with the rifle, I will be asking for advice on where to get the conversion to the flanged cartridge.

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
In his book SAFARI RIFLES, Bodington tells of Pro in Africa who

had an ejection problem with a .458 Win Mag chambered DR.

Yeah and there are mausers that fail to extract and on and on.

Mac,

How many elephants and buffalo do I need to kill to make you realize that a good rifle in a rimless belted cartridge is a suitable Dangerous Game double?

400,

Thanks for the correction. To repeat the question posed of Mac...? I'll probably kill a few this year too.

JPK

You've already killed enough, leave some for the rest of us!

I don't know how many it will take to make me think it is a good idea, but I do know how many it will take to turn you off on them if it fails on you at the wrong time!

JPK, I've always said, others may do as it suits them, but when asked my opinion on the subject, you know what my answer will be, and in this case it hasn't changed!

PONDER THIS ....
why can't a double have an extractor /ejector that grabs on the forward edge of the belt ?

Mac,

You surely do have a point. When I cross the 100 elephant line with no extraction or ejection issues you will still be telling me my rifle is unsuitable for dangerous game.

On the other hand, if I get to 99 and have a problem, if I'm still alive, I'll probably be singing in harmony!

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Mac,

You surely do have a point. When I cross the 100 elephant line with no extraction or ejection issues you will still be telling me my rifle is unsuitable for dangerous game.

On the other hand, if I get to 99 and have a problem, if I'm still alive, I'll probably be singing in harmony!

JPK

JPK, The number elephants has nothing to do with it, when you consider to kill 100 ele all one must do is fire 100 rounds of ammo, or 200 if you use both barrels on each, and spend about $1,000,000 US,!

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
400,

Thanks for the correction. To repeat the question posed of Mac...? I'll probably kill a few this year too.

JPK

I agree with Mac, I don't think it's relevent.

We've had this conversation before. The point is that there is an ocean of difference between "It hasn't failed to extract even once, at least not yet" and "It can't fail to extract because it's chambered for a flanged cartridge".

I heard from a guy a while back that got to Africa and began having extraction failures with a .375 H & H double. Apparently that rifle had never done that before either, but when it started it became chronic, and it made a hash of his trip.

Aside from the usual higher pressure, I see the rimless chambering issue in a similar light as the beavertail fore-end issue, although sheared fore-end lugs are less common than rimless extraction failures. One of the reasons to buy a double is reliability. Why pay the kind of money that a good double costs and set it up for a potential failure when the risk of such failure can be eliminated by doing it a little differently? Why throw away an advantage for no gain? It doesn't make sense. The .450 conversion is too easy.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

400,

I understand your point, but discount the issue for a couple of reasons.

First is that I cannot make my rifle fail and, believe me, I have tried. When I leave for Africa I know it is 100%. Could a problem come up that is unresovleable in the field, sure, but then I could be killed in a car accident on the way to the concession or my guns could go missing on the flight over or...All a lot more likely than my rifle going south in the field for some reason.

Second, the reliability that I require and believe is nessecary could be described best by a graph, with 100% reliability for two quick shots and declining reliability required, but greatly desired, for each succesive shot at a given dangerous animal. Once my rifle is loaded and closed, I have that 1st 100% reliability milestone, equal or better in every way than any other rifle. So far my graph, in experience, is flat, at 100%. I believe it will stay that way but understand that there is a very remote possibility that it won't.

Third, I have had to barrow 458wm ammunition in the field while I was on safari because the 11lb weight limit does not provide for sufficient ammunition for a high volume DG hunt. I've had to use softs for insurance shots on elephants to conserve solid ammo too. God only knows where the nearest 450NE ammo could be found.

Fourth, I listened carefully to JJ when he recomended that I keep my rifle a 458wm. He had a couple of reasons. First was that he couldn't make the rifle fail, and he tried, though not as long or as hard as I did. Second, he didn't believe that the particular mechanism used for this rifle was prone to failure or would fail. Third was that in his opinion, the rifle would stand long use at high pressures without any problems. Fourth was his doubt that the rifle would shoot as well as a 450NE and his doubt that he could reregulate the rifle to achieve the accuracy that it produces.

So in balance, I don't believe that I am giving up much, if anything, on the reliability side and I am gaining functionality and flexibility through ammo selection and accuracy.

BTW, I do bring a spare DG capable rifle and would do the same no matter what my rifle was chambered. It is a 375H&H, which makes the grade, barely, but will fill the function and handle the smaller DG duties and plains game too. And ammo is universally available.

JPK

Have mentioned this on the forum previous: some years back owned a Westley Richards .375H&H droplock best quality rifle, gorgeous, worked fine with Kynoch (that's how long ago this was) but gave much ejection and extraction trouble with U.S. ammo.

JPK:

Well, it sounds like YOU'RE comfortable with it at least. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

JPK, I think all the reasons you state, are sound, and one big part of reliability is one's confidence in his rifle. I certainly do not place myself in a position to second guess JJ about anything to do with a double rifle, and certainly not that particular double rifle, since I have not examined it myself. Even after my own examination, I'd still not trump his acessment, as I'm simply not that qualified, IMO.

So, I guess what I'm saying is, in most cases the use of rimless and/or belted rimless, high pressure chamberings in a double rifle is a detrament to reliability, that no convenience, is worth risking! Your's may pan out, and if it does, good for you. Still, regardless of what anyone told me about that rifle, if it were mine, it would be re-chambered for one of the rimmed 450s, and re-regulated in necassary.

Like Mark, I'll keep the fingers of both hands crossed for you! Good hunting!