Hello All:

I have been doing a fair bit of reading about enough gun for Africa.

I am planning to go to Africa to hunt cape buff. This trip is still a couple of years away. I have purchased a nice little Merkel in 9.3x74R and would like to use it for hunting the cape buffalo. Everything I have read tells me that the 375 H and H is just barely big enough to kill the ants in Africa never mind the big game. Therefore I presume the 9.3 probably wouldn't even stop the ants.

I still believe the 9.3 has more than enough jam to do the job however, I would like to hear from the more experienced hands on this issue.

What do you think?

KIndesty regards,

Carpediem

As you can see, a Merkel 9.3x74R double wasn't enough for this buffalo.



As with every animal, shot placement and good bullets are the factors that are most important on buffalo. I shot this bull with an old Barnes X bullet. He ran 50 yards, stopped and humped up and graciously awaited my coup de gras. Don't think it would have been any different with a .458.

That said, would I rather have my .450 N.E. in my hands if I screwed up the first shot and the buffalo invited me to Dancing With The Stars.... of course.

And, you may be limiting the countries in which you can hunt by choosing something lesser than a .375 H&H... but I've never seen anyone care much about caliber restrictions in the field.

JMHO.

I doubt the 9.3 is going to slow down a charging buff, unless brained. It'll kill them but so will a 22LR. But what the hell is a PH for except to risk his life for clients?

In Kevin "Doctari" Robertson's book Africa's Most Dangerous he goes on to promote the 9.3x62 and 9.3x74R as good enough for Buffalo. He also promotes downloaded .375H&H for the job too. Especially for the recoil sensitive. He preaches shot placement over all else and skill with one's rifle. 9.3 is by no measure a stopping rifle caliber. It may not even be legal to use where you intend to hunt as many countries put the floor at .375 and 9.3 = .366 for dangerous game.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
I doubt the 9.3 is going to slow down a charging buff, unless brained. It'll kill them but so will a 22LR. But what the hell is a PH for except to risk his life for clients?

Neither does much else slow down a charging buff unless brained,
until maybe you get into the 500 Nitro and above where you get some
extra "shock" value but even then, I'd still prefer a brain shot
with a 9.3 than a miss with a 470.

.

In Zimbabwe the 9,3x74R in theory just fails to meet the minimum muzzel energy requirements. Not that any buff would notice.

The ammunition I was issued for most of the buff erradication culls was RWS TUG's (in a 9,3x62) and they were going at least 200fps slower than advertised. I survived six charges that first year.

That said, the 9,3 is the legal minimum for a reason. Shot placement is vital...but have seen buff take two reasonable hits with a .500 NE and thunder off into the sunset never to be seen again so sheer ME isn't the answer either IMHO

Practice and practice some more- take the rifle deer or hog hunting and if you shoot it well and use decent bullets (NOT the current RWS version of the TUG which is sooo much softer than the old Brenneke licensed ones) you will have a very dead buff. Personally favour Swift A frames from the 9,3 now Bill Hober has bought them out in 286grn...they work extremely well from my 9,3x62

quote:

Originally posted by Hizzie:
In Kevin "Doctari" Robertson's book Africa's Most Dangerous he goes on to promote the 9.3x62 and 9.3x74R as good enough for Buffalo. He also promotes downloaded .375H&H for the job too. Especially for the recoil sensitive. He preaches shot placement over all else and skill with one's rifle. 9.3 is by no measure a stopping rifle caliber. It may not even be legal to use where you intend to hunt as many countries put the floor at .375 and 9.3 = .366 for dangerous game.

If shot placement is all that is required I would recommend a .22 Mag as it will kill a buffalo instantly every time if you put it in the right place.

Respectfully, I believe Doctari has his own motivations. He promotes medium bores and moderate velocity and light rifles because he believes clients are scared of their rifles and can't shoot. I had a .375 slug from an H&H hit a buff in the spine at 2,700 fps muzzle velocity at about 30 or 40 yards and dead stop not breaking the spine (a TSX). Use the biggest bore with the heaviest bullet and the most velocity you can handle on dangerous game, energy is your friend.

9.3x62 and 9.3x74R are marginal for buff and I now believe .375 H&H to be so also. The .40 and over cartridges hit much, much harder.

Who wants merely and barely enough, under ideal circumstances, by the way?

Especially when plenty more than enough, under any circumstances, can be had?

No brainer for me.

quote:

I survived six charges that first year.

And how many other guys were participating in those stops?

Unless you brain them or spine them a 9.3 ain't dropping no buff. It may turn them occasionally but a bigger gun will more likely turn them.

Head shots won't drop them like elephant. I have never done it and have never heard of it being done from any PH I've asked.

You can believe any crap that some guy writes but it's your butt when you go to screw around with buff.

I agree with Cane Rat, and the PH's I know would agree, that the .375 is "sufficient" but the 416's are so much better on buff. I talk extensively about "sufficiency" in my elephant book.

9.3 Guidelines:

Get the PH to leave his ammo in the Cruiser. Then go buy a pillow to put where your ass used to be so the flight home isn't so painful.

quote:

I'd still prefer a brain shot
with a 9.3 than a miss with a 470.

I forgot that one cannot miss on a brain shot with a 9.3

Nine three, especially with the new BBW #13's (available in solids or non cons) will take anything on the planet!

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:
Nine three, especially with the new BBW #13's (avalable in solids or non cons) will take anything on the planet!

So will a .22

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Who wants merely and barely enough, under ideal circumstances, by the way?

Especially when plenty more than enough, under any circumstances, can be had?

No brainer for me.

That puts it perfectly. Bigger for me, thank you.

The PH's with whom I have hunted much preferred the 416 over the 375 for Cape buffalo ... so I brought my 416 WBY and 600OK too

I love these threads because as I look through my now-depleted gun safe I can plan what calibers I need when I re-fill it and use this thread to make my argument to the boss.

Having said all of that, the answer is an obvious "yes" for all of the reasons stated in writing and as JudgeG's photograph attests. I'm with those who advise, like Cane Rat to "Use the biggest bore with the heaviest bullet and the most velocity you can handle on dangerous game, energy is your friend."

BTW, if you can handle and shoot a 9.3x74R you can easily do the same with a 450/400. I haven't been able to tell the difference in recoil but you do gain ME and diameter.

carpediem, the biggest and only probelm with using your Merkel 9.3 is going to be getting a bullet hevier than the 232g to regulate and shoot well enough with tolerable recoil.

…………………..9.3X74R double for Cape buffalo

I have to agree with everyone who posted here! That may sound silly but it is really not! Any rifle/chambering you use on Cape buffalo will do the job if the shooter does his job properly. There in lies the fly in the ointment!

Before I go any further, let me say I would have zero problem hunting Cape buffalo with my 9.3X74R Merkel 140E-1 double rifle using North fork CPS Mono-metal bullets! That being said I shoot that rifle rather well, and would have little trouble hitting the brain of a cape coming home! NOW! Would I rather have something larger, certainly I would, but BRAINED is BRAINED and in a charge nothing less will put the brakes on him.

Do recommend the 9.3X74R double for Cape buffalo? With reservation I do, but only if the shooter can shoot it properly under duress, while using good ammo with proper bullets. If the client has a bigger rifle double or bolt, that he can shoot as well, then that is what I would recommend! Anything from 450/400NE 3” up is better than anything 9.3X what ever, and the rifle you use has as much to do with this as the chambering within reason! What I mean by this statement is, I would rather have a 9.3X74R DOUBLE RIFLE, than a 458 SINGLE SHOT in a tight spot, especially on the cats or Cape buffalo. That opinion changes drastically if we were talking about elephant. In that case the chambering starts at .500 for a dedicated elephant rifle, but we are talking buffalo not elephant, with that said I could live quite nicely with a double 9.3X74R double rifle, but would rather have a 450/400NE 3”, or one of the .450s in a double if I had the choice. I have a 470NE and that will handle anything I’m likely to run into in the bush but is not needed for buffalo! I would gladly trade the 470NE Merkel double for a like condition double rifle chambered for the 450/400NE 3” , and be as happy as a pig in mud!

.........................................

quote:

but BRAINED is BRAINED

I can't help myself....

Will all the guys that gave brained a buff please stand up?

What I would do if I had enough money to influence Chapuis would be to get them to make a 450/400 on their little 9.3x74R receiver.

Then you would have a nice little lightweight 450/400 that would be a heck of a lot better than a 9.3x74R.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

but BRAINED is BRAINED

I can't help myself....

Will all the guys that gave brained a buff please stand up?

Here I stand! However it wasn't with a 9.3X74R double, but a 500/450NE double, and damn close to boot! I also brained a Jersy bull with a 30-30 mod 94 win in my grandfather's pasture, while my grandmother was trying to climb a thorny Mesquite tree!

quote:

I also brained a Jersy bull with a 30-30 mod 94 win in my grandfather's pasture, while my grandmother was trying to climb a thorny Mesquite tree! Big Grin

Excellent.

Next year I'm going to track you down at DSC so you can tell me hunting stories.

I have used the 9.3x62 on buffalo and never found it lacking..I was never charged while I had one in my hands but I am sure it would stop a charge as well as anything because I always shoot for the head under those circumstances and would hopefully be shooting a solids for that situation...It would not be my choice in a charge situation, much prefering a 40 caliber of some sort. I have been charged 3.5 times and I felt under gunned in one of those instances, I wanted a 600 N.E. but did good enough with my 450-400-3" with solids...

Well God help me then. On my next hunt I plan to take one with my 405 WCF and 300gr TSXs and North Fork solids @ 2200 fps. Maybe I'll get to discuss the foolhardiness of this stunt with TR and Ossa Johnson sooner than expected

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
What I would do if I had enough money to influence Chapuis would be to get them to make a 450/400 on their little 9.3x74R receiver.

Then you would have a nice little lightweight 450/400 that would be a heck of a lot better than a 9.3x74R.

That would be a dandy little double, the .450/.400 is a sweet shooting peach of a round.

A fun thread. A lot of actual experience on the line here and no particular conclusion.
Will, is it just me or are you getting more irascible with the passage of time?



P.S. Ray, I see we joined AR within a day of each other more than 11 years ago! I have spent many happy hours here, and am thankful that I made it to Namibia once ...

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
A fun thread. A lot of actual experience on the line here and no particular conclusion.
Will, is it just me or are you getting more irascible with the passage of time?

I usually take this stuff too seriously. I'd hate for anyone to get whacked from using too little gun. I need a break from AR.

Will is a curmudgeon, but with age comes wisdom and a decent buffalo caliber begins with a .375 H&H and better yet a 40 caliber, a 450-400 in a double gun and on up! although I have not always practiced such in my lifetime. Will would probably tell me that you can't cure stupid, and I could not argue that point.

A Cape buffalo can be a bitch to deal with once wounded and had time to bush up and start to hurt. One can easily get complacent shooting DG, as most don't fight, they run, but keep it up, push the string, and you can bet Hells a coming.

My wife uses a 375 H&H for buff, I have watched it kill buff with one shot and watched her put 8 shots into a buff that I ended up finishing with a 470. If it were me I would use something bigger that the 9.3 X 74.

BigB

I have killed several cape buff and elephants with a 450 No2, a few with the 450/400, and one each with the 9,3x74R.

The only cape buff I have killed with one shot was with the 9,3x74R, a 286gr Woodliegh Soft, It was my biggest, in horn and body to date...
I have elephant at 5 yards with one 286gr Woodleigh Solid.

.

Shot placement!
The 9.3x74R was definitely good enough for a clean one shot kill two months ago.If you shoot them in the gut with a 600 nitro you have still shot him in the gut.We start hunting Muskox in 11 days and I'm sure I'll see some horrendous shooting again.
Shot Placement!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:
Nine three, especially with the new BBW #13's (avalable in solids or non cons) will take anything on the planet!

So will a .22

You are correct, but a 9.3 kills faster than a .22. Still took 4 shots to bring this guy down. One soft in one shoulder, two solids in the opposite shoulder, one solid in the juncture of the neck and shoulders as he stood looking at me.

I have just started a thread on the myth of the .22RF on BIG game..... http://forums.accuratereloadin...971024061#6971024061

The .22RF went 9 inches into the brain of a Holstein - Frisian steer with no apparent effect.

I do not have the resources to add a 40 cal bolt or Double rifle to my collection. So it will be my Simson 9.3X62 for my planned hunt in 2013. Yes I shoot well with it - 286 gr Lapuas are spot on - with the 250 gr TSX shooting 2" high & the 320 Gr Woodleighs going 6" low. I have to get some solids from Sam & start my practice with those....

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:
Nine three, especially with the new BBW #13's (avalable in solids or non cons) will take anything on the planet!

So will a .22

Worked on this one



IMO. Shoot and hunt with your rifle a lot to be confident.
Top it with 1-4x scope to get that accuracy edge, then feed it with FN, CP or Hydro solids and drive them 2300-2400fps - that will give you stern/stern .450 cal straight permanent wound channel, put it through vitals and it should do. Double might double your chances in case of a charge.

Ganyana 74R is forgiving even on latest TUG's (UNI's) - here is the latest I have dug out of a fully grown red stag shot lengthwise in reversed order (pelvis - rumen - liver - lungs/heart) found under the skin on neck-chest joint. . Measured 2288fps, gave ~5 feet of straigh penetration - stag was 60m away.





Still not a buff bullet (unless reasonably broadside) tho - IMO.

RAC, Mouse: Those are some gorgeous bulls you boys put on the ground with your metric peashooters!

I have shot seveal cape buff, and seveal elephants, here are my thoughts.

Anything that has been done with the 375 H&H can be done with the 9,3x74R, proper bullets of course.

I consider the 9,3, AND the 375 H&H "sorta light" for such game, but well handled they will do the job. Also a 600 Nitro, not well handles will not do the job.

On elephants I would not want to take body shots with the 9,3 or the 375 H&H. For Brain shots, again well handled no problems...

IMHO of course.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by DoubleDon:
Nine three, especially with the new BBW #13's (avalable in solids or non cons) will take anything on the planet!

So will a .22

So...Will, How do you propose to get that BBW #13 into a .22 caliber cartridge?

Here is something to think about.

Get a quality double in 450/400. use the standard 400 gr bullets for the BIG stuff.

Have it scoped, and set up for a red dot.
When you get older you will thank me for this.

Then work up some loads using my 75% rule with 300 gr Softs, either Hornady or Hawk bullets, for deer and pigs or, lesser game at longer ranges...

Then you will have the ultimate deer, pig, black bear, elk, caribou, what ever African Plains Game gets in the way, Lion, Cape Buff, Hippo,and Elephant gun on the Planet.

Use your 9,3x74R scoped Double as your primary Plains game gun, carry a few solids for it so it can double for your 450/400 in a pinch, and you have two of the best hunting rifles on the Planet.

It has worked for me for 86 Hunting days in Zim.

OK....so what about a 45-70?

Carp

Bottom line is, If you can get your 9,3 double to shoot 286gr Woodleigh Softs and Solids good enough to 100 yards, then you have a cape buff double rifle... IMHO...
I have been there and done that. With NO Drama...

quote:

Is the 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff?

Yes in most cases, as is the 458.

It always amazes me that just because someone has killed a buff with a .22, or some other dinky cartridge, it suddenly becomes enough gun.

It goes on post after post and year after year.

I wonder if someone that has got gored by a buff and was lucky enough to come out of it alive would have the same opinion.