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Dang Will you're the one who brought up a .22!  Deo Vindice, Don Sons of Confederate Veterans Black Horse Camp #780 | |||
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Craig Boddington considers the .375 more than adequate for buffalo. The 9.3's are pretty close to the same as the .375 so I would imagine it would work fine. I've got a buff hunt planned for 2012 and will use a .375 H&H which I was told will be fine with 300 grain A-frames at 2600 fps. We'll see what happens. Thanks, jfm | |||
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I have had clients shoot buff with the 9.3x74 and without problems, but I have shot buffalo with the 30-06 and 8x57 without problems. Like you said shooting a few buffalo with whatever doesn't mean its a buff gun.. My idea or a buffalo rifle is the 416 Rem. or 404 Jefferys in bolt persuasion and a 450-400 in a double rifle..They kill very well, recoil is about my tolerance, and they will stop a charge if you shoot straight. I also know the 470 and 500 will kill buffalo quicker, but recoil is getting right up there and recoil recovery is slower.. Probably good advise is for one to be honest with himself and shoot as big a gun as he can "comfortably shoot" starting with a handloaded 9.3x62 ( better than a 9.3x74 by a good bit) and .375 H&H. as most African law provides. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Never shot a buffalo. But have shot a couple of Alaskan moose with a 9,3x74R. Did it work well? Yes, the moose died. But there was nothing special about the caliber and neither kill was dramatic. With a PH standing beside me it would work, I guess. But if I ever go back to Africa I want to stop whats after me, afterall that is the excitement of hunting dangerous game. I just can't visualize the 9,3 as being a stopper. Capable of killing, yes. Stopper, no. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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Up close and personal charges are always stopped by CNS hits, no other way guarenties a stop no matter what the caliber A good bullet capabale of penetrating through the vitails is always fatal _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Does that include the .22LR?  ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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I wonder how many buff Craig has killed and how many buff he has stopped, unassisted, in a charge, if any. Recommending a 375 H&H as "adequate" is pretty much meaningless. Yep, it'll kill a buff and I killed most of mine with one. The problem I have with John Taylor is, in my opinion, his pandering to the readership and fear of not selling books if he said anything against the .375 and the 450/400. Most guys peak out at the recoil of a 375 and therefore it is "Adequate." The 375 is also the usual minimum DG cartridge so it is "Adequate." Taylor, in one breath said it was "adequate" for the pro and in the next it is "adequate" for everybody. Oh, my aching butt. It's all nonsense. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Well, I guess I stand corrected. I'll skip the African trip. Thanks, jfm | |||
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I'm just talking. Nothing personal. Trying to explain the whole reasoning behind why some cartridge is deemed adequate. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Will, I hope your butt recovers! | |||
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Adequate if you can put 1 bullet of a charger in it's CNS ? I like bigger but always seem to have smaller in my hands when charged and they all turned out to be "adequate" !!! LOL . | |||
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I wish more dangerous game hunters ascribed to the "small-is-good-enough-so-long-as-shot-placement-is-perfect" theory. It would make for far better DVDs than most of the stuff out there these days. Mike | |||
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Especially if they missed !!! LOL I only missed once out of 3 times but it was enough to turn her (hit high neck). And FYI, at least twice I had a 338WM in my hands. . | |||
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One of the people on this forum has taken well over 100 cape buffalo, perhaps closer to two hundred with a .375 caliber cartridge and continues to do so. I can almost guarantee this is more buffalo taken than most of the people on this forum have taken combined. When does it become obvious that a particular caliber/cartridge is capable of taking a certain game animal without someone questioning whether the person using that caliber was able to kill the animal all by himself? Without the help of a PH jumping in to save the day? Karl Stumpfe is a PH who visits this forum. He has stated repeatedly that clients who use the 9.3 mm or .375 calibers usually kill their animals all by themselves. Without help from the PH. Better shot placement is what he thinks it may be. He's also stated that people that use larger calibers, many times, need the help of the PH to dispatch their animal.. Penetration and shot placement is what it's all about. But no, the eternal debate continues. Ganyana uses a 7.62 x 51 NATO to dispatch elephant. But how can that be? It must be a stunt. A stunt which has been accomplished thousands of times. But then again,, I wonder how many of those elephant got away to rob Piggly Wiggly stores later in the day. Let's get Saeed's opinion on this matter. He has more experience than everyone here. When he gives his answer, will he be wrong, due to the fact that he is using the wrong caliber. Perhaps it may be time to start looking at statistics. The 9.3 x 74R will do the job. Thanks, jfm | |||
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You continue to bring up the 22 LR, so tell us of your experience with the 22 LR on large bovine especialy on Cape Buffalo _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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My story: I was using 265gr GS FN solids going 2350fps. Here is a pic of initial hit. I dare to call it marginal - got the angle right, just too low - still it barely made it into boiler room.  Anyway, remarkably bullet did its job great - penetrated straight (exit was between the front legs, just on the right side where neck meets the chest - infront of right front leg). Flat Nose design made sure that bleeding was abundant and blood trail while Buffalo was running was in form of constant drops:  or where it stoped in form of a small pool. It only took 150m from the point it got hit for bull to abandon the herd, from there it made another 200m and had to bed down...FWIW - good enough for me...still each to his own - your Buff and Money and PH... A close friend of mine has shot 3 buffalo so far - on all 3 he used 9,3 old RWS nickel plated RN solids - all 3 buff were found dead inside 300m. Another one is a regular at Brooklands in Save, using his K1 in 74R for buff...hasn't lost one yet... I am only aware of one buffalo that was shot with 9,3x74R, wounded and lost - read it somewhere on AR...anyway in the heat of the moment hunter accidently loaded regular - non premium softs and hit it god knows where... P.S. Found it (good reading tho): http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1631002511 | |||
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So now the 9.3x74R is more than enough for buff even if you hit them badly. So there you go. Use anything you want. Not only will it be good enough but too much gun. Maybe someone will pipe up that he willed a buffalo to death. I can see it now.... "I never had to finish off a buff that I had willed to death with my 9 inch Bowie that I always carry to administer the coup de grace. Some recommend an eleven inch blade but I always considered the 9-incher enough, since I have always had good luck finishing off many of my buffalo. Two hundred and eighty seven stuck buff as I recall. I have yet to use my knife for a buffalo charge, so I am uncertain as to the reliability of an attempted brain stick. "There is ample evidence of willing a buffalo to death with black magic. One time I cast my dawa upon the record book bull of all record book bulls in the dark jungle of a secret African dark jungle in a secret location. The bull was immediately dazzled as if blinded by some powerful light. It took a few stumbling steps backwards in an attempt to get away, to end the grip of this unknown demon. Swaying and grunting with blood pouring from its nose and anus, try as it may, it finally collapsed 400 yards later. Struggling to gain its feet, it finally struggled its last. The buff was finally down, and bellowed its last. "There was once a buff that took 400 meters to go down but that was unusual, so much further than my record book bull that went 400 yards. "After I had caught up with my record book buff and had positioned myself straddled between its massively large hooked horns I was about to run him through with my emergency-use-only pig sticker but he was squirming his last before I could break through the four inch thick hide. "I now feel that my custom made 9-inch buffalo sticker is too much knife and may start carrying my Ka-Bar 7-incher. I knew a guy that killed over two hundred buff with a 6-inch Russell. And then there is the guy that has killed unknown hundreds of buff with a pen knife, though that was when he had backup from a bunch of guys with machetes. "I may try a Tanto blade next time, but I think it may be too much knife. "Did I mention the day I dawa-killed that record buff I had pineapple upside-down cake for lunch? ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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With the few Buff I have killed with the 9.3 via heart/ lung shots I have found they always dropped sooner than the ones I've taken with 450 or 470 calibre. Perhaps luck? If unlucky enough to be faced with a charge situation one naturally would feel safer with a bigger cal but with Buff does it really make a difference if the cns is not hit (If it is hit it should not matter)? | |||
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too much gun. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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No, far from more than enough - it was enough - and it wasn't that bad hit after all - it just wasn't perfect No worries - after all I agree: "Bill Stewart / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun" | |||
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Will, have you ever used the 9.3 or the 22 LR on Buffalo? _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I don't care who you are, that's funny. Mike | |||
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Will, How do you know when any caliber is enough for buffalo? What makes one ok and another not good? 465H&H | |||
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Will, don't forget that the 7" Kbar can be carried in a "Standard" length sheath instead of the "Magnum" length sheath required for the 9" sticker. That alone will save you an extra 1/4 of 1/10 of .0001 of an ounce. You know that extra weight really adds up when carrying it around every day for 14 days, especially in the African heat, which is of course, much more hot than the same temperature back in the US because you are closer to the equator and the angle of the suns rays makes 100 degrees there more like 200 degrees in Arizona! | |||
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Todd, how many of you DG hunters have a bayonet attached to your rifles ?? {just in case }  | |||
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mete, The Bayonet Lug - That's a new feature that Double Rifle makers will be adding to guns for 2012 !!! LOL | |||
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mete, The Bayonet Lug - That's a new feature that Double Rifle makers will be adding to guns for 2012 !!! LOL . | |||
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I'm more inclined to file off the front sight than attach a bayonet. If it gets to that point, I want it to hurt as little as possible! Know what I mean?  | |||
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As I discuss extensively in my elephant book, AVAILABLE BELOW,  , I think the good stuff starts at 5000 ft-lbs and 55 KO Value .... the 416's.A PH friend of mine whose name must remain anonymous to protect him from AR! tells me that I am right about everything in that book. How's that for an anonymous endorsement? ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Will one has to be smart and inteligent - Elephant like - to understand numbers and physics that are inculcated in ones head...not backward (tho cunning) obstinate like Buffalo or myself  | |||
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My 338 Lapua has 5222 FPE with the 300 grin SMK at 2800 FPS. so by your logic the 458 win with a 500 grain solid at 2100 FPS and only 4895 FPE is inferior to the 5222 FPE 338 LAPUA The use of FPE to rate cartridge lethalility is severely flawed. FPE is not conserved in an inelastic collision  To predict penetration with FPE is laughable, yet that is what you do in your book By your logic my 338 Lapua shooting a 300 grain SMK at 2800 FPS has 5222 FPE so it must be better than a 458 win shooting a 500 grain solid bullet at 2100 FPS because the 458 has only 4895 FPE Since energy is not conserved in an inelastic collision _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Temper temper. If energy is not conserved in a collision just what happens to it? It disappears from the face of the earth, or buffalo in this case? According to the first law of thermodynamics, energy doesn't magically disappear. I have never seen an exception to it yet, regardless how internet information might be misinterpreted. I could give you the synopsis of first semester thermodynamics but I'm boring enough as it is. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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Kinetic energy is NOT CONSERVED in an inelastic collision and that is a fact. FPE transforms into other forms of energy mostly thermal, sound, etc _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Will, Sorry my friend but the above doesn't answer my question. Let me rephrase it. Why is 5,000 ftlbs of energy needed? Why isn't 4,300 (375H&H) enough. How dead does a buff have to be to be killed by enough bullet? 465H&H | |||
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Unfortunately Will you are not knowledgeable enough to know what you don't know Get you a copy of this book and learn a bit. MacPherson spends an entire chapter explaining why FPE is not relevant to ranking lethality  _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Will can't answer your question because he is too stuck on FPE _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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I was present when jwp killed this bison, which weighed in an excess of 2,000-lbs -- I believe considerably bigger than most cape buffalo, with a revolver (in .500 Linebaugh) slinging a 525 grain bullet at a scorching 1,100 fps. Now, that calculates (since ME cannot be measured) out to a whopping 1,410 ft-lbs of ME. The bullet exited and it leaked blood profusely from the entrance and exit wounds. Inadequate?? Really?  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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By Will's assertion a 22-250 bullet at 55 grains and 3600 FPS with a calculated 1582 FPE would be at least equally effective or slightly more so, which is ridiculous _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Have an old "Kenya rifle", a 8x57 that has taken about 400 buffaloes and about 30-40 black Rhinos, also used by John A Hunter. Believe that the 9,3x74R is ok if used by a skilled hunter. The first owner of the 8x57 is still alive and a great hunter. myself, I would never dare to use the rifle for Buffalo! | |||
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A lot of old time Africa hunters used little cartridges. So what's the point? We have come full circle again. If it is xapable of killing a buff it is good enough. One can peddle that crap on the internet but I ain't buying it. ------------------------------- Will / Once you've been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun. --------------------------------------- and, God Bless John Wayne. NRA Benefactor, GOA, NAGR _________________________ "Elephant and Elephant Guns" $99 shipped. “Hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" $20 shipped. red.dirt.elephant@gmail.com _________________________ If anything be of note, let it be he was once an elephant hunter, hoping to wind up where elephant hunters go. | |||
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