quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Will,

How do you know when any caliber is enough for buffalo? What makes one ok and another not good?

465H&H

As I discuss extensively in my elephant book, AVAILABLE BELOW, , I think the good stuff starts at 5000 ft-lbs and 55 KO Value .... the 416's.

A PH friend of mine whose name must remain anonymous to protect him from AR! tells me that I am right about everything in that book. How's that for an anonymous endorsement?

Will,
Sorry my friend but the above doesn't answer my question. Let me rephrase it. Why is 5,000 ftlbs of energy needed? Why isn't 4,300 (375H&H) enough. How dead does a buff have to be to be killed by enough bullet?

465H&H

Because time and time again it gets proved that you need 5000 ft-lbs and a KO Value of 55 to successfully down buff and elephant. Do you less on elephant?

It i not the 375, not the 9.3's, not the 450/400's.

Jillions of elephants have been killed with the poacher's favorites, the 303 British and the AK-47.

Again, I say so what?

Buy my book, tight-wad!

For one thing shooting a buff is not an inelastic collision.

Image someone lecturing the professor on energy.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
For one thing shooting a buff is not an inelastic collision.

Image someone lecturing the professor on energy.

Again you miss the mark badly.. A bullet strike is indeed an inelastic collision

Your lack of knowledge on the subject is..... well laughable

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Will,

How do you know when any caliber is enough for buffalo? What makes one ok and another not good?

465H&H

As I discuss extensively in my elephant book, AVAILABLE BELOW, , I think the good stuff starts at 5000 ft-lbs and 55 KO Value .... the 416's.

A PH friend of mine whose name must remain anonymous to protect him from AR! tells me that I am right about everything in that book. How's that for an anonymous endorsement?

Will,
Sorry my friend but the above doesn't answer my question. Let me rephrase it. Why is 5,000 ftlbs of energy needed? Why isn't 4,300 (375H&H) enough. How dead does a buff have to be to be killed by enough bullet?

465H&H

Because time and time again it gets proved that you need 5000 ft-lbs and a KO Value of 55 to successfully down buff and elephant. Do you less on elephant?

It i not the 375, not the 9.3's, not the 450/400's.

Jillions of elephants have been killed with the poacher's favorites, the 303 British and the AK-47.

Again, I say so what?

Buy my book, tight-wad!

Exactly where is this proof that 5000 FPE is needed?

In la la land?

You response to all of the Elephants and Cape Buffalo taken by cartridges with less than 5000 FPE is "so what"??? You do dismiss any and all proof to the contrary as non-existant which also shows your lack of understanding of the subject

If you say so. I give up.

Thank God I have no experience shooting Cape buffalo and elephant.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
If you say so. I give up.

Thank God I have no experience shooting Cape buffalo and elephant.

Expereince shooting them doesn't relate to termal ballistics knowledge as you clearly demonstrate


Watch this video of Lynn Thompson dropping Pigs and Austrailian bullo with a 44 mag shot after shot

Certainly way short of 5000FPE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKTeEmNUkjw

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
A lot of old time Africa hunters used little cartridges. So what's the point?

We have come full circle again. If it is xapable of killing a buff it is good enough. xapable of killing a buff it is good enough.

One can peddle that crap on the internet but I ain't buying it..

Again your lack of understanding the facts is showing again

So often the question ..."is it enough?" answers itself. If there is a question, why not take more?

I have killed hogs and red deer with both 9.3s in Germany. The 62 seems to have a bit more "Dampf"...but I can't imagine that either would be the hammer required in a dangerous situation. And with that, the question would be answered for me...guess I'm not enough of a gambler.

quote:

Originally posted by JonP:
So often the question ..."is it enough?" answers itself. If there is a question, why not take more?

I have killed hogs and red deer with both 9.3s in Germany. The 62 seems to have a bit more "Dampf"...but I can't imagine that either would be the hammer required in a dangerous situation. And with that, the question would be answered for me...guess I'm not enough of a gambler.

I'd worry more about the quality of the bullet used than I would about a 9.3 being enough gun or not.
Jack Huntington didn't have any problems with his 9.3X74 on Cape Buffalo, neither did Shawnboth put their buff down quickly and both used 9.3X74 double rifles


I guess they both shot "dumb" buffalo's that didn't know that 5000 FPE was needed

Holy Crap:

Did I ever open a can of worms. But I have to say, it’s been fun. Will, you crack me up.

Now I would like to go back to the original premise of is the 9.3x74R enough gun to kill a cape buffalo?

When I go to Africa, I plan on taking the best bullets I can load. A friend of mine used the Rhino bullet from South Africa on a Giraffe recently. He said the performance was excellent. I THINK it was from a 375 HH.

He also got a shot at a cape buffalo. I don't know the ammo. He was using a 450/400 I believe. Problem was the shot placement was off and he lost the buff.

So ladies and gentlemen, you are all correct. Within reason, it's not size that matters, it's how you use it. .

I have been drawn for a bull moose in my area this year. The god's willing, I will take him with my Merkel. And then it will be more practice and yes, I will take the 9.3x74R to Africa to hunt buff.

As many of you have said, if the buff is charging, and you brain him, he will go down.

Now, let's talk about another cartridge. I have my gunsmith building me a DR in 45-70. As I have come to learn, this is NOT enough gun for cape buff. And as I went and bought a Baikal double rifle in 45-70 because I couldn't wait for the gunsmith to finish my project, (he's been at it for five years), I now am changing the calibre on the project.

Talking with friends and the gunsmith, I have settled on the 450 Alaskan. This round is based on the 348 case and is necked up to 458. It looks good for velocity and punch. Do you think this would work for Buff?

This is no joke. I hope the smith will be finished with the project by the time I leave for Africa in 2013.

Thank you folks for your input and I will now go look for a bigger can to handle all the worms.

By the way, the barrels will not be marked 450 Alaskan. I will mark it in the old British style; 348/450 N.E.

Kindest regards,

Carpediem

Of course the 450 Alaskan would work for Cape Buffalo. How did you decide that the 45-70 would not work on Cape Buffalo? My friend Ray took an Elephanbt with the 45-70 out of a Contender and it worked just fine.

I guess he also shot a dumb Elephant that din't know that 5000 FPE was needed

We really haven't gone in depth enough as to what constitutes what enough gun is or isn't.
That was why I asked the two questions of Will. Is it how fast the animal is incapacitated or how fast it dies? Does it make much difference if after the first shot on a buff it travels only 10 yards and lives for 20 seconds versus traveling 50 yards and living for 50 seconds? Since they very very seldom charge after being initially shot does it really matter other than maybe being a little more humane in how soon it dies. In a charge you must hit the CNS to drop the buff and stop the charge. Just missing the brain in this scenario seldom stops the charge or stuns the animal. Foot lbs of energy doesn't seem to play a big role here, bullet diameter and bullet construction may in some marginal cases. A 286 grain bullet in the brain of a charging buff will stop it as quick as a 400 or 500 grain bullet in the same location. Just miss the brain with any of them and they will keep coming(at least most times).

On initial body shots a stout soft point will kill the buff quicker than a solid of the same caliber and weight. It is directly related to the amount of tissue destruction. A smaller caliber soft point may well kill quicker than a larger caliber solid. Again the energy may be the same between the two but the smaller caliber kills quicker.

Now I may burst a few bubbles here but from my experience and from conversations with ex-Parks Rangers and PHs, elephants are one of the easiest animals to kill with heart/lung shots. Place a good solid of any caliber from .366 on up in the high/heart region and it will come down within 10 to 100 yards. In my experience elk and especially mtn. goats will travel much farther after a similar hit. Now head shots are a different matter entirely especially on a charging animal. They are the opposite of buffalo in this regard as they usually can be turned from a charge with a hit that misses the brain. It also appears that the heavier the weight of bullet and the larger the caliber the more likely the charge can be turned or at least broken up. A large bullet thump to the head will often change their mind about charging. Once they are turned they head for the hills and seldom try to continue to charge. Here is where in my opinion the large caliber rife using heavy weight bullet earn their keep.

The 400 grain 416 Rigby and the 458 Win using 500 grain bullets (if the 458 is loaded to at least 2,150 fps)have roughly the same muzzle energy but on a shot that misses the brain the 458 will be more reliable in turning the charge.

Consequently, I am comfortable using a 375 H&H on buff but much prefer a 45 caliber or bigger for elephant.

465H&H

I have been told by many that the 45-70 just doesn,t have enough oomph to do the job.

Am I wrong in assuming this?

Kind regards,

Carpediem

quote:

Originally posted by carpediem4570:
I have been told by many that the 45-70 just doesn,t have enough oomph to do the job.

Am I wrong in assuming this?

Kind regards,

Carpediem

400 grain Punch bullet at 2050 FPS, what do you think?

JWP: a 400-grain .458 at just over 2000 does not meet the old original early smokeless "bar" set by the 450 NE of a 480-grain slug at 2100. But considering the technological advances in bullet design and materials, that old standard may well be obsolete.
Still, an experienced a hunter as Jack Lott, who was savaged by a wounded Cape buff after it was shot with a .458 WinMag, went on to design a cartridge with more poop -- the .458 Lott.
I think the wise thing is to affirm that one can have too little for buff, but never too much.
I'm no expert, having only killed African plains game. Still I would love to kill a buff with my Ruger No. 1 in .450-400 and these lovely CEB 400s that just came from UPS ...

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Still, an experienced a hunter as Jack Lott, who was savaged by a wounded Cape buff after it was shot with a .458 WinMag, went on to design a cartridge with more poop -- the .458 Lott.

What was the story behind Jack Lott's mauling ?

Was it one of those dud 458WM's or bad shot placement or ????????????


You can have the biggest gun in the world but if you can't hit the animal right, it still won't matter. Didn't Feldstein find that out on the first Elephant he shot with the first 700 Nitro double ??? I believe The Elephant pissed off over the border).

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Still, an experienced a hunter as Jack Lott, who was savaged by a wounded Cape buff after it was shot with a .458 WinMag, went on to design a cartridge with more poop -- the .458 Lott.

What was the story behind Jack Lott's mauling ?

Was it one of those dud 458WM's or bad shot placement or ????????????


You can have the biggest gun in the world but if you can't hit the animal right, it still won't matter. Didn't Feldstein find that out on the first Elephant he shot with the first 700 Nitro double ??? I believe The Elephant pissed off over the border).

.

One of the bullets rivoted and the other broke up. No matter of power will over come poor bullets

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
One of the bullets rivoted and the other broke up. No matter of power will over come poor bullets

So the problem was the bullets, not the 458 Win Mag ?

Or did he design the Lott so the bullets rivet and break up faster ?


.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
One of the bullets rivoted and the other broke up. No matter of power will over come poor bullets

So the problem was the bullets, not the 458 Win Mag ?

Or did he design the Lott so the bullets rivet and break up faster ?


.

I'd like to know the answer to that one as I have always wondered how a faster round is going to improve the performance of poor bullets

Well the Lott is a useful item but if what you put is true, to blame the 458WM is an issue.

(Am not questioning you, just after how many years stories get changed !!!)

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
Well the Lott is a useful item but if what you put is true, to blame the 458WM is an issue.

(Am not questioning you, just after how many years stories get changed !!!)

.

If you have an online subcscription you read Ross;s article and Jacks own words to describe what happened when he got toss'ed by the buff


http://www.riflemagazine.com/m...e/index.cfm?magid=64


Yes it was poor bullet performance

The PH I'm working with in 2012 stated there is no difference in killing power, that he has seen, between the .375 calibers and the .416 calibers. He has seen buff drop to a shot with both and has also seen buff run for up to 1400 meters with either. Shot placement and penetration. His belief is that shock value, as he puts it, is worthless on thick skinned game.
I will not divulge his name as many here would just as soon put his experience down as claim he is brain dead. Let me just say he is someone that many here on AR have used and is very talented. I believe he knows what he is doing in allowing me to use the .375 H&H magnum using 300 grain A-frames. I do agree that 400 or 500 grain A-frames from a .416 or .458 would be better but acceptable is acceptable. I respect the entire argument that bigger is better but this post is about what is acceptable and the 9.3 x 74R is acceptable. I guess there are some on this forum who claim they are caretakers of the misinformed hunters afield in Africa. God bless them as they are the salt of the earth. They are better than I but when it comes down to reality, and the average guy who wants to do an African safari with plains game and an occasional DG animal, I would agree with those who have a lot of experience. They usually suggest a 9.3 x 62 or equivalent or the .375 H&H magnum or above. Is this a problem? I don't think it is except for people on internet forums. Have you ever noticed that people that spend a lot of time hunting don't really spend a lot of time on internet forums except to promote their books, etc......

Thanks,

jfm

jfm

Re shock value, quite a few VERY experienced hunters over here who have all shot over 1000 Water Buffalo and in some case over 5000 (in the days when lots of big animals were around) clearly said that the 500NE (and others in the .510 range) were a cut above the 470 and below because of the shock value. They shot them with every calibre under the sun.

I have personally seen the shock wave ripple down the side of a Buffalo when using a 500NE.


In saying that, the difference in shock value between the 375 and 416 may well be like the PH said. I have also had them drop on the spot and run away with the same or similar calibre's.

Interesting discussion.

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
jfm

Re shock value, quite a few VERY experienced hunters over here who have all shot over 1000 Water Buffalo and in some case over 5000 (in the days when lots of big animals were around) clearly said that the 500NE (and others in the .510 range) were a cut above the 470 and below because of the shock value. They shot them with every calibre under the sun.

I have personally seen the shock wave ripple down the side of a Buffalo when using a 500NE.


In saying that, the difference in shock value between the 375 and 416 may well be like the PH said. I have also had them drop on the spot and run away with the same or similar calibre's.

Interesting discussion.

.

500 and above with the larger bore and bullet wieght will definately have a noticable visual effect when the bullet arrives that is for sure and certain IMHO.

OK, here is a left field comment re shock value.

To an extent, you can increase the shock value of a calibre like 9.3, 375H&H, 416 by upping the bullet weight - ie in those calibres, 320gns, 350gns and 450gns.

What do you think ?

Heavy for calibre RN bullets do seem to hit harder from observation.

.

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:
OK, here is a left field comment re shock value.

To an extent, you can increase the shock value of a calibre like 9.3, 375H&H, 416 by upping the bullet weight - ie in those calibres, 320gns, 350gns and 450gns.

What do you think ?

Heavy for calibre RN bullets do seem to hit harder from observation.

.

I did notice a significant difference in shock value when I upgraded from a 500 grain bullet at 2,300 fps in a Lott to a 550 grain bullet at 2,150 fps. So did the elephant and buff.

465H&H

Well, I do have to say that when it comes to .50 caliber cartridges,which my PH did mention, he too saw a difference. I didn't add that before because I was mainly comparing the 9.3 x 62, 9.3 x 74R, .375's and .416's. His statement was something along the lines of "When you get up to the fifty caliber cartridges like the .500 NE, then you're talking stopping rifles". I can definitely see that.

Thanks

jfm

On most stations we had .500 NE 'jesse guns'. I have never used one but have seen them in use. They certainly hit harder than any .458 or even .470. If you wish to see a serious reaction to a buff geting hit then smack it in the engine room with a .500NE and a decent soft point.

Just finished a hunt where client (fairly famous US gun writer) hit a buff twice with solids from a .500NE and we never did find the buff.

And for will..all six charges I faced in my first year in parks we handled by me alone and I used a 9,3x62 for all of them.

The old rule for stopping buff (with solids) was to fire the first round low in the chest- a heart shot buff will not come back to finish you off even if he hits you- then keep the second barrel until he is within spitting distance and put a shot on the nose.

Personally I don't like my buff so close and with a bolt action you have only one shot and I cannot truthfully say I have seen enough difference in terminal effect between a 9,3 and a .416 or .458 win to bother about upgunning.

If you want a real buff thumper buy a .500 Jeffery - that makes them take notice even with relatively poor shots.

.45-70 kill buff just fine. They do not make the muzzel energy requirements in many places but nobody asks questions. I have never seen a .45-70 load yet that I would consider safe for use on elephant but on buff...don't think your PH will complain.

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
Well, I do have to say that when it comes to .50 caliber cartridges,which my PH did mention, he too saw a difference. I didn't add that before because I was mainly comparing the 9.3 x 62, 9.3 x 74R, .375's and .416's. His statement was something along the lines of "When you get up to the fifty caliber cartridges like the .500 NE, then you're talking stopping rifles". I can definitely see that.

Thanks

jfm

jfm

My apologise, my post wasn't a criticism of you or the PH as I realised you were talking about the lower "sub 50" cartridges - which is why I added the last bit to my post ! but it is interesting that he also has noticed that.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
On most stations we had .500 NE 'jesse guns'. I have never used one but have seen them in use. They certainly hit harder than any .458 or even .470. If you wish to see a serious reaction to a buff geting hit then smack it in the engine room with a .500NE and a decent soft point.

Just finished a hunt where client (fairly famous US gun writer) hit a buff twice with solids from a .500NE and we never did find the buff.

And for will..all six charges I faced in my first year in parks we handled by me alone and I used a 9,3x62 for all of them.

The old rule for stopping buff (with solids) was to fire the first round low in the chest- a heart shot buff will not come back to finish you off even if he hits you- then keep the second barrel until he is within spitting distance and put a shot on the nose.

Personally I don't like my buff so close and with a bolt action you have only one shot and I cannot truthfully say I have seen enough difference in terminal effect between a 9,3 and a .416 or .458 win to bother about upgunning.

If you want a real buff thumper buy a .500 Jeffery - that makes them take notice even with relatively poor shots.

.45-70 kill buff just fine. They do not make the muzzel energy requirements in many places but nobody asks questions. I have never seen a .45-70 load yet that I would consider safe for use on elephant but on buff...don't think your PH will complain.

Exactly...............

I've never hunted Africa, never shot a buff, but I fail to see how you can argue the 9.3x74R isn't enough for buff when its used every year to cleanly take them. Its definitely on the lower end of capable cartridge list, but certainly on it.

Now if the question was stopping them, I would agree they're marginal at best, but for cleanly taking game. You can't tell me that a heart/lung shot with a 416 Rigby, is going to be more fatal than a heart/lung shot with a 9.3.


Its like arguing that the 338 isn't enough gun for brown bear.

quote:

Just finished a hunt where client (fairly famous US gun writer) hit a buff twice with solids from a .500NE and we never did find the buff.

I'm sorry but even my limited experience of having shot at two buffalo notwitstanding, anybody that uses solids on buffalo is just unwise and this is a perfect example. 9.3s (62s and 74s) have been taking buffaloes down for over a century. Are they "ideal" perhaps not but the rest is folly.

Champlin Firearms is offering a pre-war Francotte double in 9.3x74R for less than $10k if anyone is interested.

Interesting idea about upping the bullet weight to create more effect. I was planning on going with a 286 grain bullet however, if there is a heavier bullet, I would like to know about it.

Kind regards,

Crpediem

quote:

Originally posted by carpediem4570:
Interesting idea about upping the bullet weight to create more effect. I was planning on going with a 286 grain bullet however, if there is a heavier bullet, I would like to know about it.

Kind regards,

Crpediem

In 9.3 ?

320gn Woodleigh RN SN and PP

A few others out there in the 300+ range as well.

The 320gn RN and PP hit damn hard on Water Buffalo, made all of them very sick very quick if they didn't fall over dead. I found it damn near impossible to get a recovery without "setting up" the shot to make sure it didn't exit (was testing the bullets so needed the recoveries).

Remember, the Woodleigh 320gn RN SN was originally fired out of a 450 Nitro case as the 360 No 2. A damn fine cartridge.

.

quote:

Originally posted by carpediem4570:
Interesting idea about upping the bullet weight to create more effect. I was planning on going with a 286 grain bullet however, if there is a heavier bullet, I would like to know about it.

Kind regards,

Crpediem

The 320 Woodleigh both soft and solid is excellent in the 9.3

Is it hard to get the 320 grain to regulate in a 9.3 that was regulated with the 286 grain bullets? I was very satisfied with the 286 Woodleighs out of my Chapuis. Don't see any need to go to a larger bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by RAC:
Is it hard to get the 320 grain to regulate in a 9.3 that was regulated with the 286 grain bullets? I was very satisfied with the 286 Woodleighs out of my Chapuis. Don't see any need to go to a larger bullet.

Most people I know with 9.3 DR's have been able to get it to work.

You can only give it a go.

They (the 9.3's) seem to be a bit like the 375H&H in being able to
get all bullets to work.


.

quote:

You can't tell me that a heart/lung shot with a 416 Rigby, is going to be more fatal than a heart/lung shot with a 9.3.

I am a Rigby fan. If given the choice, I'll still pick the Rigby over the 375 or 9.3. In fact, I'm going on an Australian buff hunt next summer and I'm taking the Rigby along.

That said, for various reasons, I've found myself carrying a 375 instead several times in Africa. The buff I took in 06 with the Rigby took 5 well placed shots to get him off his feet. I've also shot 3 buff with a 375. 2 took 1 shot each, the other took 3. It's a small anecdotal sampling, but you be the judge. Is the smaller caliber "adequate". I think so.

My other buff was shot with a 500NE. That is a different story altogether. It was a raking shot angling forward into the vitals from about 25 yards with a 570gr TSX. Actually knocked him down and rolled him. Gave him the other barrel before he could get up. No question that the 500's are "adequate"!

I agree, I also own a 416 Rigby, its my go to gun when the hunt is dedicated brown bear hunt.


I like it because it will stop a bear mid charge. But on a non charging bear, its no more lethal than my 30-06, 338's or either of my doubles (45-70 9.3x74R)