quote:

Originally posted by J D:
There is so much pissing going on here ,we all are going to have yellow socks.
JD

LOL


I agree, I think most of what needs to be said re Sab DR's has been said
and some good summary's by Mac and the poster just after him.

.

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:
Ahhh I knew I forgot a letter in there some where

I deleted the spellchecking line from my response, it was uncalled for on my part and I apologize for that. I agree with you and 500N that the Sabattis are a cheaply made double with some apparent issues and I feel sorry for anyone who gets saddled with one as a year from now Cabelas will have divorced themselves from them and a used Sabatti will be worth about $2K on the resale market. That said, Nemo's a young guy who saved his pennies, bought one, and got hosed. Hell, he's doing better than I was at that age, I spent all my $$$ on booze, women, and smokes and couldn't afford shit other than that.

Well 500 looks like people finally agree 500 and I did not post about sab rifles because we are Rifle snobs but to clearly show that all that glitters is not gold and usually when an item is priced to good to be true it usually is not the best bang for the buck...I remember some time ago when they said the rifles would come all the way up to 600 nitro express what a mess that would of been if they actually went foward with that..In life you get what you pay for and rarely more then you do.

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:
500 and I did not post about sab rifles because we are Rifle snobs but to clearly show that all that glitters is not gold

+1

I must have missed where he said that we posted because of snobbery.

Well, if I was that much of a snob why would I own Merkel's and a Zoli ?


The 600Nitro thing reminds me of when the Blazers first came out.
Geoff from Woodleigh and I were at a gun show in Aust and had a look at them
- in the catalogue it listed the calibres including 500 Jeff.

I made a rather loud comment that the Blaser could not support a 500 Jeff
which got the sales person's attention who said it would.

Anyway, Blaser dropped the calibre from the line as the re prints did not have the 500 Jeff listed.

Not sure if they ever made one or not but they obviously had queries on it at the time.

OK, so I found the canned Gin and Tonic...






...now what?



Cheers
Tinker

Now find a cask of wine and a dry river bed make a bon fire and complain how you dont get enough free money

Shit.

That sounds too easy.



btw, just how does one go about getting free money?
If I could get enough of that stuff, I could end up affording another double rifle!!



Cheers
Tinker

quote:

Originally posted by a.tinkerer:
Shit.
That sounds too easy.
btw, just how does one go about getting free money?
If I could get enough of that stuff, I could end up affording another double rifle!!

Cheers
Tinker

Tell them you are Aboriginal, apply for the dole, get a free house and not have to work.

Then sit around in the dry river bed drinking cask wine

Don't worry, I'm not being racist, plenty of whites to it as well.

Our Gov't is soft.

Where's all that free money Obama was supposed to be handing out from his stash if he got elected?

Just tell em your a abo and how you been there since the begining of time cry a tear about loseing your hunting grounds etc and your in

quote:

Where's all that free money Obama was supposed to be handing out from his stash if he got elected?

Spent it on Malt Liquor and gold teeth

More "HORRIBLE" Sabbati news over on my "loading the 450NE Thread."

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
More HORRIBLE Sabbati news. I was feeling lucky this AM so I went out and set the target up @100. It was cold (for here 33) and velocities were slow ~2020:


I guess I should install a scope to really see where it shoots, but I can't bring myself to do it. Not bad for a "cobbled together junk".. jorge

Jorge, that is an absolutely perfect target for Irons on anyone's double rifle regardless of make! You were one of the lucky ones, and if I thought I would get one that shoots like your's I'd buy one in a heart beat! Congratulations

Thanks, Mac! I'm still going to get that VC though although I haven't made up my mind as to what caliber. !!! BTW, the rifle seems to like the 458WM cannelured 480s (the ones designed for the 458 Win Mag) over the NE ones, I guess maybe because they seat lout longer and are closer to the rifling? No discernible diff in velocities though. This target has four Woodleighs and two DGXs.

Wow....nice grouping....

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Thanks, Mac! I'm still going to get that VC though although I haven't made up my mind as to what caliber. !!! BTW, the rifle seems to like the 458WM cannelured 480s (the ones designed for the 458 Win Mag) over the NE ones, I guess maybe because they seat lout longer and are closer to the rifling? No discernible diff in velocities though. This target has four Woodleighs and two DGXs.

jorge

you are making V-C's work very hard, when they have to compete with that kind of shooting, nice target, are you thinking about using the SAB as a PG rifle as well, with that kind of accuracy it would work you know.

best

peter

Peter: In all honesty a lot of these Sabbati issues have given me pause for concern(even though I have a written guarantee from Cabelas) so I don't know what caliber I'll decide on for the VC (I have until April to decide). I think the 450NE is perfect for the type of DG I do, mainly buffalo and if I'm lucky one or two elephant in my life, but I've always liked the 450-400 (3"). So, I don't know whether I'm going to order the VC in 450NE, 450-400(what I'm leaning to right now if the Sabbati holds up) or go all the way to a 500NE decisions! jorge

iorge:
One heck of a target, shot by one heck of a shot, shooting one heck of a rifle, especially the last target. Shooting two different bullets, in such a tight group, with open sights at 100y, that is fabulous.
Your rifle has proven itself worthy of Africa in my HOP, through many shooting sessions, with different bullets and powders.
Enjoy it to the utter most my friend.
Mac summed it up when he wrote.
Jorge, that is an absolutely perfect target for Irons on anyone's double rifle regardless of make! You were one of the lucky ones, and if I thought I would get one that shoots like your's I'd buy one in a heart beat! Congratulations

Me


Good shooting/hunting and God's best

Malek

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
More HORRIBLE Sabbati news. I was feeling lucky this AM so I went out and set the target up @100. It was cold (for here 33) and velocities were slow ~2020:

I guess I should install a scope to really see where it shoots, but I can't bring myself to do it. Not bad for a "cobbled together junk".. jorge

Jorge, that is an absolutely perfect target for Irons on anyone's double rifle regardless of make! You were one of the lucky ones, and if I thought I would get one that shoots like your's I'd buy one in a heart beat! Congratulations

+1

Awesome target, well done.

You comment on velocities were slow - 2020 - do you have one of those guns that can have a bit of variation in velocity but it doesn't really change the groups / regulation much ? I know that sounds weird, but I have found some DR's are more sensitive than others.

.

.

nice shooting Jorge

Given the light for cal weight and some of the isssue that have surfaced, I wouild load up a 100 or so rounds, and set up for hunting; I would put it away (except when something needs to die). I don't think they will last a life time if shot that much. Other option is to shoot the hell out of it so that if there is a problem it will surface sooner than later while the warrenty may mean something. Now is the time to decide what you are going to do. Glad you got a shooter.

JD

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Peter: In all honesty a lot of these Sabbati issues have given me pause for concern

I dont know Jorge - some folks here say that the Verney-Carron isn't of much better construction so I wouldn't take my eggs out of one decrepit basket and put them in another of similar delapidation.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
I don't know what caliber I'll decide on for the VC (I have until April to decide). I think the 450NE is perfect for the type of DG I do, mainly buffalo and if I'm lucky one or two elephant in my life, but I've always liked the 450-400 (3"). So, I don't know whether I'm going to order the VC in 450NE, 450-400(what I'm leaning to right now if the Sabbati holds up) or go all the way to a 500NE decisions! jorge

Well,
After struggling with similar decisions and having DRs in 600NE, 450NE, 450/400 and 9.3x74R, I decided that 600NE and 450/400 was the perfect combo for all of my future hunting. Rusty and so many others wrote that the 450/400 was good enough for anything but a pleasure to shoot. Well, I can attest to the latter not yet having tested the former. It may be the most pleasant and fun double (and perhaps firearm) to shoot of any I have owned and it is accurate as I could possibly want. Did I mention that it too is a despicable Sabatti?

So, if I already had a 450NE and it was as accurate as yours, I would opt for the 450/400 - because it is such a sweetheart to shoot. The 450NE as the "heavy" and the 450/400 as the "light". I'm not one for multiple rifles in the same caliber and I believe that you can't bring two of the same caliber to some African countries so I wouldn't opt for the V-C in 450NE. If you decide for the 500NE (NICE!!! ), let me know; I have 40 pieces of new Jamison brass and 32 rounds of Norma PH ammo I can sell you

quote:

Originally posted by J D:
nice shooting Jorge

Given the light for cal weight and some of the isssue that have surfaced, I wouild load up a 100 or so rounds, and set up for hunting; I would put it away (except when something needs to die). I don't think they will last a life time if shot that much.

Which issues were related to frequency of use? Seriously, I have been reading most of the posts but haven't gleaned that from the issues I have read.

And why wouldn't they last as long as any other if "shot that much"?

quote:

Originally posted by J D:
Other option is to shoot the hell out of it so that if there is a problem it will surface sooner than later while the warrenty may mean something. Now is the time to decide what you are going to do. Glad you got a shooter.

JD

I think THAT is excellent advice. If your concerns are valid, better to identify a problem at the range than in the field.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

Which issues were related to frequency of use? Seriously, I have been reading most of the posts but haven't gleaned that from the issues I have read.

Yes, I didn't pick that up either. Anyone care to expand.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
And why wouldn't they last as long as any other if "shot that much"?

Soft metal, incorrectly heat treated can cause guns to shoot loose,
bend hooks, crack / bend the water table, stretch the action.

Seen the odd gun in the past with these. Not sure if they were metal related
or severe overloading, although one was definately soft metal.

.
issues.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Peter: In all honesty a lot of these Sabbati issues have given me pause for concern

I dont know Jorge - some folks here say that the Verney-Carron isn't of much better construction so I wouldn't take my eggs out of one decrepit basket and put them in another of similar delapidation.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
I don't know what caliber I'll decide on for the VC (I have until April to decide). I think the 450NE is perfect for the type of DG I do, mainly buffalo and if I'm lucky one or two elephant in my life, but I've always liked the 450-400 (3"). So, I don't know whether I'm going to order the VC in 450NE, 450-400(what I'm leaning to right now if the Sabbati holds up) or go all the way to a 500NE decisions! jorge

Well,
After struggling with similar decisions and having DRs in 600NE, 450NE, 450/400 and 9.3x74R, I decided that 600NE and 450/400 was the perfect combo for all of my future hunting. Rusty and so many others wrote that the 450/400 was good enough for anything but a pleasure to shoot. Well, I can attest to the latter not yet having tested the former. It may be the most pleasant and fun double (and perhaps firearm) to shoot of any I have owned and it is accurate as I could possibly want. Did I mention that it too is a despicable Sabatti?

So, if I already had a 450NE and it was as accurate as yours, I would opt for the 450/400 - because it is such a sweetheart to shoot. The 450NE as the "heavy" and the 450/400 as the "light". I'm not one for multiple rifles in the same caliber and I believe that you can't bring two of the same caliber to some African countries so I wouldn't opt for the V-C in 450NE. If you decide for the 500NE (NICE!!! ), let me know; I have 40 pieces of new Jamison brass and 32 rounds of Norma PH ammo I can sell you

Gents: I'm going to give the poor thing a break, as I figure 152 rounds is enough to ensure it's not going to blow up anytime soon. I do have a question for the experts though, what is the average number of rounds most doubles can absorb before issues show up? I have never shot anything above 2140 fps and in fact most have been in the 2000-2075 range.

Here are some pictures I took of the rifle with the three bullet types I've been shooting and I'll mention again the rifle seems to like the Hornady DGX of course and with the Woodleighs, it prefers the shallower cannelured #24A(those designed for the 458Win) better than the 450NE designed #24 slugs. I'm thinking it's because they seat closer to the rifling?







Not a bad looking piece of wood, although I would prefer a darker finish. Thoughts? As to the VC's caliber, it'll probably be the 450-400...at least for today jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

Gents: I'm going to give the poor thing a break, as I figure 152 rounds is enough to ensure it's not going to blow up anytime soon. I do have a question for the experts though, what is the average number of rounds most doubles can absorb before issues show up? I have never shot anything above 2140 fps and in fact most have been in the 2000-2075 range.

Here are some pictures I took of the rifle with the three bullet types I've been shooting and I'll mention again the rifle seems to like the Hornady DGX of course and with the Woodleighs, it prefers the shallower cannelured #24A(those designed for the 458Win) better than the 450NE designed #24 slugs. I'm thinking it's because they seat closer to the rifling?

Not a bad looking piece of wood, although I would prefer a darker finish. Thoughts? As to the VC's caliber, it'll probably be the 450-400...at least for today jorge

Wood will darken with Age anyway. You can always refinish it and stain it darker.

Re how long before issues show up ?

If it is a major fault, I reckon straight away.

Other things like barrels splitting at the muzzle, who knows.

I think issues would have show up by now with 150 rounds in them. Remember, new DR's ie H&H need to be shot to wear them in and the top lever end up centered (on the basis that they are made still off set a bit).

I wouldn't worry about Velocity as it seems a lot do, I'd worry about how it shoots. A large animal doesn't notice much if it is 2050 is 2150 fps.

.

This is still the rule: YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!!

There is just no way one of these rifles can hold up against a Krieghoff, Merkel, Hyem, Blaser, VC & Chapuis...Those in my opinion are the bedrock doubles. After that you are paying for panache, fit & finish and in some cases collectible investments.

The Sabattis are a great deal for the guy that wants a double and understands that with the low price, might come some issues that will need to be resolved.

Really nothing more to it than that!

JW

Noted Jeff and while I agree with your basic premise, I've seen some higher end rifles here with issues as well. So far, the likes of JJ Perodeaux and Craig B and even Gun Test Magazine have had nothing but good things to say about Sabbatis. Of COURSE you get what you pay for but I have to tell you that sometimes, sometimes things work out and so far, this rifle has not shown me anything in the way of fit, finish, accuracy and most importantly reliable functionality to be concerned with as compared to rifles costing much more. I am aware though that this isn't a "Best Quality" Purdey. That said, I invite you to handle and shoot one and not just judge it by price alone. Worst vehicle I ever owned was a Mercedes Benz. Cheers, jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Gun Test Magazine have had nothing but good things to say about Sabbatis. Of COURSE you get what you pay for but I have to tell you that sometimes, sometimes things work out and so far, this rifle has not shown me anything in the way of fit, finish, accuracy and most importantly reliable functionality to be concerned with as compared to rifles costing much more. I am aware though that this isn't a "Best Quality" Purdey. That said, I invite you to handle and shoot one and not just judge it by price alone. Worst vehicle I ever owned was a Mercedes Benz. Cheers, jorge

Gun Test magazine.

I saw an article / review by a magazine, they didn't even mention a whole range of things that we look for in double's, even though they compared them against others.

So, IMHO, unless the person is experienced, most gun writers / magazines couldn't write a proper review on a Sab.

A bit like me writing a review on a Performance car like a Porsche.


JEFF is still correct - you get what you pay for !!!

.
.

Yes he is! but I can write about Porsches

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
This is still the rule: YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!!
JW

Not necessarily and it is not a rule at all.

People pay what they believe something is worth. Sometimes they are are correct and get something of fair value for their investment. Frequently they get a very poor ROI.

Ever go to an auction?

Or an "antique" store?

Or a jewelry store with your significant other?

And sometimes even the most informed consumer gets "taken". The pages of AR are filled with stories of just this happening with the most revered and respected names on either side of the debacles described.

500 am I qualified to write about sports cars ????

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

Which issues were related to frequency of use? Seriously, I have been reading most of the posts but haven't gleaned that from the issues I have read.

Yes, I didn't pick that up either. Anyone care to expand.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
And why wouldn't they last as long as any other if "shot that much"?

Soft metal, incorrectly heat treated can cause guns to shoot loose,
bend hooks, crack / bend the water table, stretch the action.

Seen the odd gun in the past with these. Not sure if they were metal related
or severe overloading, although one was definately soft metal.

.
issues.

As I said it is light rifle for the rounds they are offered in. They are not as robust as most of the other doubles out there. Given the cost cutting measure that have been taken on regulation, I am a little concerened about what other corners they may have cut. We don't how they will hold up in the long haul.

If I had one that shot as well as the one Jorge has I would baby it. Finding any double that shoots that well is a stroke of good luck. We don't have a history on them yet and don't know how long they will last. If Jorge were to load up a 100 or so rounds and just use it for hunting He would get life time of hunts out of it.


I do not know how even the crowns will wear or how long they will hold regulation. My experience with target bolt guns is that when the crown or the throat go south accuracy degrades pretty quick.

I am not trying to rain on anyones parade, I am just suggestiog that if you have a good one, baby it! Don't try to wear it out.


If the heat treating and metal is good and the crowns wear uneven , you can send it to JJ and have it regulated for $700 or so and still have a great deal.

If the heat treating or the metal is of poor quailty and it were to shoot loose or the internials wear to the point of malfuntioning that would be a much different problem to deal with.


I do not know anything, that you don't.

I have read of one owner having problems with the triggers.

I am not being a gun snob, I have 470's in a merkel and chaprui and can find fault with either one of them. For what they cost,I should not be able to find any faults. I called the Merkel importer about a crack in the toe of my stock that had been poorly repaired by the factory, He said and I qoute That it's only a $7000 rifle,and would not be perfect. I do know that I can't wear them out by shooting them ,if I show proper care, we don't know that about the Sab.


I hope my gut instinct is wrong that that y'all will get a liftime of service out of them.


JD

quote:

Not necessarily and it is not a rule at all.

People pay what they believe something is worth. Sometimes they are are correct and get something of fair value for their investment. Frequently they get a very poor ROI.

Ever go to an auction?

Or an "antique" store?

Or a jewelry store with your significant other?

And sometimes even the most informed consumer gets "taken". The pages of AR are filled with stories of just this happening with the most revered and respected names on either side of the debacles described.

Ok, I get your point. However if we are going to stick to the topic of this thread, I think it is fair to say that with regards to "new" DRs you get what you pay for.

As far as inventments and DRs go, that's another subject.

Also, If you read my post for its intended literal content, nothing derogatory was stated about the Sabatti rifles.

The point of my original post was that after reading all sorts of stories about these rifles it seems that for the price they are selling they are as inexpensive as it can get for a safe, reliable, large bore DR. And if anybody expects more than that for 5-6K they are not considering the realistic aspects as to why the higher end rifles cost more. The Italians don't have some magical formula that allows them to produce DRs of like quality to the German offerings. They are cutting costs by implementing non-traditional manufacturing techniques and more generic features than are their competitors priced a few grand above - that's all this is.

I really hope Sabatti is successful in this venture and that translates into more folks getting interested in shooting DRs and thereby improving the overall health of our sport!

That's the real bargain in all of this!

JW

Actually not quite Jeff. The Italians employ cheaper labor and are trying to obtain a niche market with this rifle. The only real and consistent issue with them is their regulation process on some of their rifles. Internally, they have been vetted by knowledgeable individuals and they are well made with strong actions and CNC process. Again I suggest you handle and shoot one yourself, I've seen you on TV and you know your stuff. jorge

I doubt that I have ever read so many totally unsubstantiated statements in one thread. Exactly what evidence is there that these rifles are built of inferior quality steel, that this steel is poorly heat treated, or that these guns will be more subject to uneven wear at the muzzles than any other rifles are?

The acronym to describe these statements is WAG "Wild-Ass Guess" !!

quote:

I doubt that I have ever read so many totally unsubstantiated statements in one thread. Exactly what evidence is there that these rifles are built of inferior quality steel, that this steel is poorly heat treated, or that these guns will be more subject to uneven wear at the muzzles than any other rifles are?

J.J. Peredou should be run out of the business after saying they were good rifles.

I think this is gun "snobbery" at it's best.

If my "cobbled together" Sabatti shoots as good as Mr. Jorge's it ain't going anywhere, except to Africa with me!


.

Ron,

C'mon now, you know better than to say that.

You also know that if you repeat something often enough, particularly with an authoritative voice, it will become the truth in everyone else's eyes.

Besides, this is AR! You most certainly have read at least as many unsubstantiated statements in many other threads. Why must you exagerate so ...

This may have been said in this thread as I did not read it all but has anyone actually tried to have a Sabatti regulated the normal way. I was led to believe that the barrels were "brazed" and not soldered like other doubles. Thus, to remove the solder, regulate and get back together was near to impossible and costly. Any opinions on that item? I would like to know the truths about that before I would buy one.

Larry