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Paul That will do for sure--more than enough ammo. I don't know about the DGS however? Sam and I were talking Thursday about getting a run of these done in #13s. M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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   NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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Michael, When they get here I will let you know.I have your email and I think you have mine. Either I'll run upstate and do the test there or we'll figure when to send said stuff to you for some fun. As far as the DGS, might be a good time to compare these "micro-bore" .410 Hornady solids to same dameter CEB #13s. I'll keep you up to date on delivery and progress. February in the Catskills outdoors shooting double rifles - this should be fun. NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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Paul  I see 4 others have decided to join me with my small bore .500s! No, all 5 of them are not me, it would not let me vote again! HEH HEH
It was a chilly 19 degrees here this morning, but no worries, just bump the heat on in the range, get it to a nice balmy 60 degrees and shoot away! I shot most of the day yesterday. HEH! Sam and I were talking about doing a run of CEB BBW#13s at .409. Undersized by .001 in .410 guns is fine. I was shooting some of the first barnes banded yesterday, .458, only they were not .458, they were .456. I will put in a PO for a run of .409s tomorrow. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Hello All, I am actively engaged it performing option No 1 So I voted for it. I still think that the gun is alot of gun for the money, provided it shoots. Had I had the luck of "Jorge" and got a gun that only had one barrel "regulated" and it shot with factory ammo, I would have kept it. I also have seen a few that did not need "regulation" after the original joining. I do not know if JJ could regulate them in the traditional way since they lack a wedge at the muzzle. So now you are into cutting off the damage, fabricating a wedge and or new sight base, redoing the ribs and Any other customizing you wanted. Too much to spend on a new gun. I am looking into another K gun or a Merkel or maybe a gun from PeterDK. Nitro "Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall DRSS, BASA 470 Krieghoff, 45-70 inserts, 12 ga paradox, 20 ga DR Simson/Schimmel, 12 ga DR O/U Famars, 12 ga DR SXS Greener | |||
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Unfortunately, I don't have the mastery of wizarding that you do so i can not command the sun to "turn up the heat" on Beaver Dam Road. Nor do I have an indoor range  I was hoping you would cook up a few CEB #13s because if the DGS veer in test media, it could simply represent what you have demonstrated in other bullets of similar design and shape rather than have anything to do with the rifle from which they were shot or its method of regulation. NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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I agree with one of the points that Doc made. You can get an awful nice Chapuis 9.3X74 for not to much money. In addition, if you are willing to spend a little more and have a little patience, you can usually find a used Merkel, K-gun or a Blaser for not much more. I bought my K-gun from Gary at a really good price. When he shipped it to me, it got a bit of a nick in the stock during shipment. I really didn't care. I just took it down to our local Amish furniture store and the guy there had the perfect colored furniture pen to color in the nick. I took it to the range a couple of days later after I had loaded up some ammo with Gary's load data. I shoots perfectly and I never looked back. It's the perfect "working gun". The wood is pretty plain and you would not be afraid to take it into the field. I have a buddy with a double that is so beautiful, he is afraid to shoot if for fear that he will scratch it or something. My point is if you want a Sabatti, go for it. However, for a little bit more you can pick up a used Chapuis, Merkel, Krieghoff, of Blaser. I think that's the way I would suggest. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Forget .416 Rigby in a double, get it in a proper double chambering, much less potential for problems. Merkels and Chapuis DRs in African DG chamberings can be found in the $7K-$8K range and in my opinion are a much better choice than a $5,500 Sabatti and will spare you the frustration that some of these other folks are experiencing with their Sabattis. A Merkel or Chapuis will also hold its value and only time will tell what the resale market for Sabattis will be given the problems that have cropped up. | |||
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In my humble opinion, if you are not going to get a Sabatti, and are going to save up a bit more I would personaly recomend either one of peterdk's DRs or a Merkel. I have shot 5 different Merkels (7x65R all the way up to .500NE) at mdstewart's Merkel double rifle shoot a couple days ago. At first, having only handled Merkels and never shot them, I thought that Merkels and Sabattis MIGHT be comparable. Now that I've shot BOTH Merkels (5) and Sabattis (2), I have to say I there is no comparison... The Merkel is worth the price difference. Personally, I am getting one of peterdk's DRs.  ------------------------------------------------------------------------ He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. -- John 3:36 http://www.accurateinnovations.com - http://aigunstocks.com/home-2/ NRA Life Member DSC SCI DRSS - STILL waiting on MY "Taksdale" .450NE or a refund...  "Young knight, learn to love God and revere women, so that your honour grows. Practice knighthood and learn the Art that dignifies you, and brings you honour in wars." (Johannes Liechtenauer, 14th century) | |||
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I have to tell you, the Indoor Range was the best money I ever spent in my life! I very rarely shoot outside unless getting ready for a hunt or something. All my equipment is set up permanent, ready to go. No lugging things around and setting up chronos, or other equipment. Just plug the chronos in and shoot! Hot, cold, raining, don't matter. Not going to lie, or play it down, it's great! I will see about getting us some #13s in .409 on the way. I will get some up to you ASAP. Dan will be running the big boys this week too!!!!! M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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If you are looking at a .416 in a double rifle, I would suggest a .500/.416 instead of .416 Rigby. The ballistics are the same but the .500/.416 is a rimmed cartridge specifically designed for a double rifle. Yes you can find K-guns for under $10,000. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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There's a lesson in there somewhere.... "At first, having only handled Merkels and never shot them, I thought that Merkels and Sabattis MIGHT be comparable. Now that I've shot BOTH Merkels (5) and Sabattis (2), I have to say I there is no comparison... The Merkel is worth the price difference. " Opinions are like bellybuttons, everybody has one. After having shot Merkels and Blasers, I'll keep my Sabbati and the five grand difference. After one hundred twenty rounds:  jorge, still riding that two dollar saddle... USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Is this grinding out of the Muzzle a standard practice at Sabatti or an isolated incident? | |||
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OK, why a rimmed cart instead of a non rimmed cart? I was under the impression that the 416 was a DG cart. Meat Eater. | |||
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The rimmed cartridges have more area for the extractor/ejector to grip onto. The rimmless use a small pawl to snap into the rimless and it's not as good IMO. NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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Because in a DR it should always be a rimmed (flanged) cartridge for positive extraction/ejection. So why did I purchase a W.R in .318 last week  ? Still trying to sort it out myself  .Deo Vindice, Don Sons of Confederate Veterans Black Horse Camp #780 | |||
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I recently got a 300 H&H DR and it had a dirty build up in the neck area. Upon firing it the pawl ripped thru the rim and left the shell stuck in the chamber. Needless to say it got a thorough cleaning afterwards. NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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jorge, I am not bashing Sabatti here. If I had got a Sabatti that had no mechanical or accuracy problems, I would CERTAINLY have kept it! I still think that Sabattis are (or can) be a great value, providing you don't get one with promlems... I was very impressed with the Sabattis I held at the NRA show. The show peices handled nicely, and had good fit and metal finish. I just happened to get 2 bum Sabattis in a row, and that left a bad tast in my mouth regarding Sabatti(s). BUT... As I understand it, I am the only one to have mechanical problems, and among the few to have accuracy problems. MOST of the people who have them (including those who also own other "high grade" DRs) are well pleased with them! Merkel vs. Sabatti... I am not trying to but heads with anybody on this one. I was only stating a honest opinion based on my own personal experiances. When I handled both Merkels and Sabattis at the NRA show, I was mostly impressed with Sabatti. After all the problems with BOTH the Sabattis I have had, and having handled and shot (quite a bit) 5 Merkels, I hold Merkel in a much higher opinion than Sabatti. This is only my simple opinion, it does not follow that I am correct. I would still enocourage people to consider Sabatti(s), providing that they inspect them in person BEFORE they buy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. -- John 3:36 http://www.accurateinnovations.com - http://aigunstocks.com/home-2/ NRA Life Member DSC SCI DRSS - STILL waiting on MY "Taksdale" .450NE or a refund... "Young knight, learn to love God and revere women, so that your honour grows. Practice knighthood and learn the Art that dignifies you, and brings you honour in wars." (Johannes Liechtenauer, 14th century) | |||
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Jorge, I've had and sold my Merkel 500NE. I'm with you on this. BTW, Lane and other Merkel owners who are being so smug: It wasn't so long ago that your beloved Merkel were viewed in exactly the same fashion. Too light for caliber, cartoon engraving, poorly regulated and unreliable ejection. I bought one despite those criticisms, though there was ample evidence in these very pages of there veracity. Guess when a new kid moves on the block, even those that had been bullied target the newcomer relieved in their own escape. No doubt those Sabattis that don't shoot should go back but the BS that's accumulating is sounding like the stuff that leaks out of liberal democrats. NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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Nemo,I know you are not, I was just responding to the usual suspects here that if one were to say Sabattis walk on water, their response would be "oh that's because they can't swim." I've been around this place long enough to remember issues with just about every brand name of rifle and Merkels were PILLARIED here and now they are "accepted" EXACTLY like Doc says. I too inspected Merkels, K guns, and of course VCs and everything you say is true, the Merkel IS a better gun, no doubt about it, but my Sabbati so far has proven to be a very good double, accurate and reliable and for the money, one hell of a buy. And speaking of good buys, the VCs get my vote (and my order). jorge USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
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Jorge, Not just arguing with you as I think you are a good'un...but...here is my point. You can by a Merkel for around $8K or even less. Merkels are tried and true. They may not be made to fit everyone 'cause they are an off-the-rack-suit so to speak. But the "tailors" (read gunsmiths) did quality work. They use a tried and true action design...maybe one of the better. They are regulated properly. They may be a bit light...but my .500 NE is fine to shoot and I don't really "like" recoil. Almost everyone...even their critics...will tell you they as a lot are well regulated and generally accurate. Peterdk tells me they use poor wood...but I bet Sabatti uses the same. Professionals have used them in the field with good reports. If bought right...they at least hold their value. So...the difference between $5K and $7500 (what I gave for mine NIB) seems neglidgable. So...I "know" I got a good piece of equipment...a no frills sort of gun...but just what I wanted to pack around in the jess. Besides...mine points for me like a good shotgun. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I just traded my sabatti 45-70 for a new mk 460 wby and am glad i did, the one I had shot poorly and had way to light of barrels. I will own a double again I am going to save my pennys and buy a merkel 9.3x74. | |||
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Jeorge is correct about the Merkel being put down when new to the double rifle society, and there were claims that they would shoot loose in less than 50 rounds down the tubes, they were too heavy for caliber, then the 500NE came out and it was too light for the caliber. After 10or 12 years of use in the field all those claims except the 500NE being too light were found to simply be myth! If anyone wants to do a little search on the Merkels you will find who was making those gloom and doom statements about the Merkel. The only people saying all those things were people who had something to sell that couldn't meet the Merkel's price point, or staunch Britt collectors, who think anything not made in the UK is junk. The difference here with Sabatti is that the complaints are coming for new owners, not competitors and the problems are real, and verifiable. Yes some have come up with good ones, and to those folks I say keep them if they shoot properly, but the problem is this is a $5000 gamble, and a great number of those who place the bets are loosing. I looked at the first ones to come to Cabela's at the DSC show last year, and I decided to take a "wait and see" stance on this one because of how lightly they were built, not in over all weight but in the lightness of lock-up parts. I'm glad I waited now! Just too hit and miss for my taste. Jeorge, I'm very glad you got one of the good ones with you being new to double rifles. If you had gotten one of the bad ones it may have turned you off on doubles all together. If I thought I would be lucky enough to get one of the good ones I'd buy one in a heart beat, but I'll do my gambleing in front of a Cape Buffalo, with a "PROOVEN" rifle I know is up to the task! I know a $5K double rifle is hard to pass, and I was on the "BUY LIST" myself, but not now! Gentlemen it is one thing to down grade a product where there is verifiable information out there as to the quality, and quite another to down grade a product with nothing but to gain a compatitive edge! IMO, all the bad press here is coming for customers, not competitors! ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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MadD37 Well said. Facts are everything. Like you, I looked at them in the US when they first came out and decided to "wait and see". Yes, I, and Express Rifles have given them a hard time but I think the facts are really starting to show how much of a "gamble" it is. And what really pisses me off is an opportunity arises to get more people into DR's but the people who IMHO have "jumped on the band wagon" have let these new DR owners down badly, solely because they haven't taken the time and effort to make sure the product was 100% right before putting it to market. AND, it would NOT have taken a whole heap more $ to get it right. So people who have taken the gamble and lost, off loaded the gun onto someone else MAY be lost to the DR society and we may lose the next owner as well. Just my HO. | |||
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I copied this over from the other thread, this is where I wanted it. I have handled several different rifles at Cabela's. They are trying to sell the illusion of a working double , too much spent on makeing it pretty and not enough on makeing it sound. I would prefer bead blasting and hard chrome to a blue job, (blueing requires skill and man hours to polish, any body can bead blast with little or no training). Wood finish is not that important as long as it is a sound finish (Spray on poly). Less money spent, better working gun produced ( like the Ruger Alaskin),it does't have to be glossy to sell. It just has to be accurate and reliable. Why not build it with a adjustable regulation like the Tika or Merkel. Less skill required to build it, laser set up at the factory with fine tuneing on the range by new owner useing ammo of their choice. I would love such a double. My Idea of a working gun. Bead blast Hard black chrome on barrel and reciever (no engraveing), sound wood with water restiant finish. adj regulation like the merkel. Kind of like the hugo shotguns but in a matt no glare finish. With cnc eq the above rifle can be built with mininal hand fitting, You would just need a good protype to take the scan's from. If they can get a few of them right for 5k they can build my working rifle for the same or less and get it right! it will need good sights and cheap scope mounts tally or warne would be fine. DRSS 9.3X74 tika 512 9.3X74 SXS Merkel 140 in 470 Nitro | |||
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At the Shot show, they had 3 x large calibre doubles on show so IMHO none of the smaller 9.3x74R or 375's which is IMHO their forte. The person behind the counter wasn't that interested in talking about them. Spent some time on the phone then was looking around when I was trying to extract info. Just my observation. . | |||
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lane less expensive wood, not poor. it is all in the color, and from where on the tree it comes. and they are good working guns, as is most of the others in this price class. you will get lemons, in this price bracket, but hopefully it will be a learning expirence for the makers if their guns are being sent back to be made right. best peter | |||
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Peter, You are such a polite fellow. Mine has quite a figurative stock. I will try to take some pics. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I have a 470 merkel that has normal, average wood on it. I also have a 375 with superb, highly figured wood. you get what you pay for. If you pay more for a higher grade of wood, you get it. I will say that they need a few more coats on the wood. | |||
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Mac, I lurked here fore a couple of years before I first joined in January 2004 and remember so much of the Merkel-bashing that I thought twice about buying one many years later. But as you said, time proved the naysayers (for the most part) wrong with a few well-described and valid exceptions. I'm not so sure about "great number of those who place the bets are loosing" - certainly a few people here with mechanical problems and a bunch more who say their Sabatti - which was also their first double - "doesn't shoot". I've learned from you and many other experienced double rifle shooters that being good with a single barrel doesnt necessarily translate to being so with a double - the requirement of accurately shooting a double is an endeavor unto itself and requires almost fanatical attention to hand position, grip and technique. Perhaps most or all of the new Sabatti owners have read all that has been written about this but I wonder how many shoot their new doubles as if they were bolts or single shots? At least one person admitted his "poor shooter" wasn't so poor in his father's hands. Time will, of course, tell and I applaud you and 500N for your restraint. "Wait and see" is good for some while others are "early adopters". Even if the Sabatti doubles turn out to be as bad as some here believe they are, I have little concern that they will turn off potential double-users. Like the Baikals, the only thing I have read from owners has been "This is GREAT fun! I can't wait until I can afford ..." We'll see and again, time will tell. My own opinion is that there are certainly some "bad apples" out there but far more "good" and probably a few "great" as well. NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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thank you sir, hopefully i can see it and shoot it when i come over, then you can play a bit with one of mine guns as well best peter | |||
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Welcome to AccurateReloading! Great fora and incredible advice from people with more experience than i would have in 10 lifetimes. But, people here are quite opinionated and are not shy about sharing those opinions. For example: A Weatherby Mark V in 460 Weatherby Magnum!  If I were you, I wouldn't admit that on the "Big Bore" forum. You would be jumping from the frying pan into the fire. If you think the anti-Sabatti group is vocal, wait til you hear from the anti-Weatherby crowd.  Like Jorge, I am a big Weatherby fan and have or have had at least of nearly every modern Weatherby caliber (thouth I'm not sure the .224 is "modern" but it is one of my favorites). Be aware, though, that ... nah, you'll find out for yourself. Enjoy the WBY - it is a GREAT caliber in a GREAT rifle. NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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Do you really think so???  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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CCMDoc Your point about shooting ability with doubles and some of these new owners shooting them like bolts could be part of the problem. So definitely a factor we have to take into account. It will be interesting to see if they are shot by others at DRSS and other shoots how well they shoot. That doesn't however negate from the fact of lousy or poor regulation using the crowns of the barrels. | |||
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We are meek and mild individuals who pack up on others who own push feed DG rifles or low end Doubles that aren't English . | |||
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 NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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Woah now 500 Ive agreed with you on alot of things but Im not afraid to admit it Am a HUGE weatherby fan especially the Older 1s..Ive built myself many a 416 and 460s over the years | |||
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LOL Good, then we won't compete in the marketplace then | |||
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Of course not im a lefty my friend as are my doubles so we shall never compete | |||
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