Given the chagrin and anger about how some Sabatti doubles are regulated and forgetting for a moment that J.J. Perodeau and others use this very method when clients can not afford or won't pay for the "traditional" resoldering of rib and barrel for regulation;

AND agreeing that any of us would return said double if it didn't shoot as well as the "test target" in the hands of experienced folk like MacD37, Will, retreever, etc. with factory loads with which it was regulated (in other words, assuming that it DOES shoot as well as the test target) ...

Question:
Assuming you looked for and found that your $5,000 ($5,500 with ejectors) Sabatti 500NE/470NE/450NE/450-400 or $3,000 Sabatti (45-70, 9.3x74R, etc) had the crowns altered to regulate it,
Would you ...

Choices:
Return it for a refund and save another $3-$7k for something else
Send it to J.J. Perodeau for "traditional" regulation for $700 (plus the other things you know you want done)
Keep it as is and save the money to bring it to Africa on safari
Give up on doubles and go back to Michael458's dreaded small bore bolts

 

I voted for the "Return for a refund and save up for something else" option.


I really think it depends on how poorly the rifle shoots.
If the test target shows 1-1/2" to 2" group and I can only get 3" or 4" groups (at 50 meters), than I would say find a handload it likes and keep it!

If it shows 1-1/2" to 2" group, and I am only getting 5" to 7" groups (at 50 meters), then I would try for a replacement. If the replacement had poor regulation (or any other problems), I might try for another replacement, IF the rifle had no other problems... If I got the 2nd or 3rd replacement and the one I had at presant had no other problems than it's inaccuracy, than I would probably send it off to J.J. Perodeau.

But, IF I had got a replacement (or several) and none of the replacement rifle(s) were accurate enough, and IF they had other serious problems other than accuracy, I would definately get a full refund and save-up for something else.



I assume several (if not most) of the folks here know the the trouble I've had, and path I have taken since. So if someone had serious problems with their Sabatti(s) and had gotten a refund, then I would recomend that they contact peterdk about his DRs. Just ask him about his rifles and his prices, you will be pleasantly supprised.



But this is just me...

Maybe I wasnt clear - the rifle in question shoots extremely well - just like the "Final Tune" targets in the hands of a skilled DR shooter.

Like you, I would return it if it didnt do as it should as long as I did my part.

Sorry if that wasnt clear.

I clarified it in the poll and just to be fair as of 17:22 EST on January 21st, 7 people chose Return it and save ... and none chose another answer so far ...

Oh, I think I see now...

IF the rifle shot well, I would not care if it was regulated with the so called "alternative regulation method" providing the rifle shoots straight.

NOT ME--I voted for Michael458 small bore .500 MDM in a single barrel bolt gun!!!! I also see that someone else besides me did the same!!!!!!

HEH HEH!!!!!



I wonder if I can vote again?

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:



NOT ME--I voted for Michael458 small bore .500 MDM in a single barrel bolt gun!!!! I also see that someone else besides me did the same!!!!!!

HEH HEH!!!!!



I wonder if I can vote again?

If you are from NJ - you can vote early and often! Come to think of it, that's the way it worked in Rhode Island as well.

quote:

NOT ME--I voted for Michael458 small bore .500 MDM in a single barrel bolt gun!!!!

And a pocket-full of those ass-kicking NonComs !!!!!!!!

When my factory Kimber does not hold 5 in tha mag like they claim and when the sling swivel studs (yes both of them) strip the thread, I still kept it as it shoots very well and is a joy to carry in the bush.

So a $3k or $5k Sabatti that shoots well is a dream realised for a hunting and gun nut who cannot afford a Searcy or a Chapui as well as a trip to Africa.

One day.....mmmmm

Assuming I would buy it in the first place after seeing the egg shaped muzzles, and it shot well, I would keep it, and down the road when the regulation went away from shooting wear at the muzzles, or it's down range targets showed what I suspect it would, I'd send it to JJ for treditional regulation after shortening the barrels to get rid of the EGGS!

What everyone here is missing is the way this form of so-called regulation works is it makes the bullets "YAW" when leaving the muzzles, and though it may hit the target right at the range the test target was shot, what is a YAWING BULLET doing down range farther? KEY-HOLING would be my guess! My opinion only!

Still a double rifle that opperates properly or, can be made to opperate properly for under $6.5K is a find these days!

MacD37

You have brought up a point that has far more importance than has previously been mentioned about this subject. Honestly, I just breeze through, and have not put much thought on the matter as it really has nothing to do with me.


But now that you mention bullets are coming out yawing, and "Unstable", one might just forget about how say a solid projectile will do during terminal penetration! Unstable going in, and starting terminals is not a good thing, and probably these rifles have slower twist rates to begin with, this could spell disaster with terminal performance of even really good and proper designed solids? Terminal stability would have to be effected, with a negative impact!

Michael

quote:

What everyone here is missing is the way this form of so-called regulation works is it makes the bullets "YAW" when leaving the muzzles, and though it may hit the target right at the range the test target was shot, what is a YAWING BULLET doing down range farther? KEY-HOLING would be my guess! My opinion only!

EXACTLY...if it were that "OK"...everyone would do it.

Yawing bullets & ele don't go together.

We have knashed teeth for a long period of time now to get premium bullets to ensure deep STAIGHT-LINE penetration.

With a Yawing bullet...

As usual, Mac's advice is something I always file away and what he suggests is exactly what I plan to do should my rifle's accuracy go south. Even with an 800 dollar re-regulation by JJ that I might eventually need, I'm still ahead of the money game. As to the yawing theory, maybe one of you guys that have one and also the means to test them for that issue can report back to us. I just returned from the range and I've posted in adddition to a couple of targets, some new observations that are probably old news to most of you on my loading the 450 thread. 140 rounds and counting...jorge

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Yawing bullets & ele don't go together.

We have knashed teeth for a long period of time now to get premium bullets to ensure deep STAIGHT-LINE penetration.

With a Yawing bullet...

Lane

You are exactly correct, lot's of work, lot's of knashing of teeth and turmoil to get where we are! Now, if this yawing issue is spot on, and I expect Mac may be correct, Yawing, unstable bullets and ele are a very very bad combination!

If anyone has one of these rifles it would not be too hard to test this, and I am willing to do whatever needed to get it sorted out, but it is a very important issue--you simply must have terminal stability, or everything else might be moot!

Michael

BTW--I am on the range this morning, have been trying to sort out doing a run of 458 caliber barrel strains for testing, and it has been a bit of a hassle to figure out. After some excellent advice and consultation with my test partner Mr. SRose, I think we have it now! I am busy loading up a new batch and running back to the range quick as I can! Very exciting to get things right!

M

I plan on keeping my 45-70. I doubt that it will actually see Africa, but it will see the whitetail woods.

Michael,
I'll check my 450-400 and if it has that finding I will send it and components to you if you are willing to test the use theory. We'd have to stick to factory Federal spec loading since that is what it is supposedly regulated with.
Will let you know if I am "egg-shape"

Mac & ledvm
Keep in mind 90+% of the buyers will never see a dangerous game hunt, unless you count feral hogs which I don't. Most won't ever shoot it enough to wear a muzzle out either. If they get the disease we are carrying then they will progress/digress as we have and it won't be an issue. I guess one could say, either way they are screwed.

Brian is correct IMO, most will shoot their rifle a lot on whitetail deer, and Hogs and I also predict if they shoot reasonably well, it will build into an addiction, and the owners will move to something else down the line.

The ones like the one Nitro450Express has that shoots good individual barrel groups on the short range target but each barrel shooting 4 or 5 inches away from the other, and one low, the other high at 30 or 40 yards will go back to Cabela's for a refund, and rightly so!

Down at the 4K ranch DRSS hunt we shot both the Sabatti, and the V/C rifles, along with verious other brands, and chamberings with factory,and handloads both. Most of the brands were well known, and it was no suprise that they shot very well, the VC rifles all vindicated thier looks with some fine shooting as well. Nitro450Express shot his Sabatti with factory and verious hand loads, and nothing brought the barrel groups closer together, and now I understand he took it back to Cabela's for a refund! That would have been my action as well. Really sad because for a 5.5K rifle they look very nice!

As always, I try to steer away from the moniker of "most" especially when anectdotal. Going to Tz on a buffalo safari in 2013. This will be my third safari and of courese I'll take the (gulp) Sabbati. jorge

Edited to add: In my opinion (and that is what forums are oftern-times used for), I find it hard to understand if a man buys a double in an African caliber with no intention of ever going to Africa.

For all those who own Sabatti DR's which appear to shoot well, I say forget about all the nay saying, and just take the rifles out in the field and enjoy them for what they are.
They appear to be very good value for the price, by double rifle standards.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Edited to add: In my opinion (and that is what forums are oftern-times used for), I find it hard to understand if a man buys a double in an African caliber with no intention of ever going to Africa.

You could apply the same to 458 Win Mags, 416 Rigby's (Custom and CZ), 500 Jeffrey (Custom and CZ) and any other big bores.

Not everyone has the desire, time, money to go to Africa.

.
.

i have 4 drs. i will never see africa but i enjoy the hell out of them. when the deer season is open i walk out the back door with one slung over my shoulder and im on safari. thats my joy of them the deer is secondary.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
As always, I try to steer away from the moniker of "most" especially when anectdotal. Going to Tz on a buffalo safari in 2013. This will be my third safari and of courese I'll take the (gulp) Sabbati. jorge

Edited to add: In my opinion (and that is what forums are oftern-times used for), I find it hard to understand if a man buys a double in an African caliber with no intention of ever going to Africa.

Jorge,

My Sabatti 450-400 (with one non-round crown) will be joining me in Namibia this November. My dad will back me up with it on elephant and use it for the Oryx he woudl like to add to the trophy room. Shhhh - don't say anything to him, he doesnt know he is going yet (he has no idea how to use a computer or get on the internet).
Ihave no reservations about it on such a hunt in my dad's hands.

To the opinion part of your post, I bought a Weatherby Euromark in .416 Weatherby magnum the year they came out with a dream that someday I would take it to Kodiak for a monster bear. That was long before I ever thought about going to Colorado for elk (and ultimately did so with it in 1994) and I NEVER thought I would ever go to Africa for anything. Yet I bought the first of three 416 WBYs based on a dream that "maybe some day" though realistically "never". People have track-ready production cars and never intend to race them. The best example of having something a person will never use in its intended way is my brother-in-law who has a set of standard tools - I shudder to think of him weilding a 16oz Estwing.

I also have mirrors in my house - some say I should never use those either

quote:

Originally posted by usps:
i have 4 drs. i will never see africa but i enjoy the hell out of them. when the deer season is open i walk out the back door with one slung over my shoulder and im on safari. thats my joy of them the deer is secondary.

usps, I hear you loud and clear my friend . I am blessed to have been to Africa several times. That being said, I still get immense pleasure walking out my front door with my DR (muzzles forward of course ). I did just that this afternoon. We have an extended antlerless deer season (ends March 31) in my county. Took my new 6.5x57R double for a walk. Best part is that I didn't see any critters.

Bullets that don't go to sleep and spin true, will do strange things in tissue , or on paper.

Not what you want in a rifle to face dangerous game with!

The sad thing about this is that some poor old joe, who realy does't have the money to by a proper double , pushs hard to get the rifle of his dreams ( it was 5 k and looks pretty so it must be good), and takes home a dog that he does't have the funds or know how to straighten out.

It just ain't right!

JD

quote:

Originally posted by J D:
Bullets that don't go to sleep and spin true, will do strange things in tissue , or on paper.

Not what you want in a rifle to face dangerous game with!

JD

Of course I agree with you about the a bullet going straigh and true though a couple of observations:

1) some very experienced folk have used bullets that yaw quite impressively quite successfully on game such as elephant. These pages are filled with stories of certain bullets veering and bending yet getting the job done. Those same folk claim they will used that bullet ever more despite these findings;
2) aside from pure supposition and speculation, I've seen no evidence of those $5,000 double rifles throwing bullets that yaw on paper or game.

I know, I know, say something often enough and it will become fact. I am an evidence-based guy. When the weather gets better I will test my Sabatti in test media that will reveal the facts and post the results and evidence here.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
I know, I know, say something often enough and it will become fact. I am an evidence-based guy. When the weather gets better I will test my Sabatti in test media that will reveal the facts and post the results and evidence here.

Now that's the way it's done! Don't just sit around, believe this, believe that, TEST IT! Find out for sure! Just because someone said it, don't make it so!

You will never know unless it's put to the test.

Good Show!

Michael

Doc

As for the rifle, I will do anything you want to do, but if it does come to you sending it down, that would be fine, but I rather you send loaded ammo for it if we do. But you may be able to check it yourself as well. It would not take much to do so. Either way we can sort it out.

Michael

Hey Michael,

If I cant get to it because of other oblications or weather (supposed to be below zero here in the morning), then I will take you up on the offer and provide plenty of ammo to test. I'll buy a few boxes of factory ammo with which it was supposed to be regulated for the tests whether I do them or you.

Thanks,
Paul

Here is a choice you didn't include: A nice mid-size Chapuis for less money.

"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public." Plus ca change...

Two boxes of factory ammo enogh?
On order from MidwayUSA for use by me or by you - one each of DGX and DGS. I could of course load up some myself but I'd like to see the results with factory ammo as previously mentioned.

quote:

Originally posted by MichiganShooter:
Here is a choice you didn't include: A nice mid-size Chapuis for less money.

"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public." Plus ca change...

Had one of those too - fantastic and bautiful double and from a well-known, well respected guy who stands behind everything he sells.

I didn't include it as a choice because the same caliber Sabatti is actually less expensive than that ($3,000).

Met up with a couple of people last night in Clovis,

Had a chat with Llance and talked about Sabatti etc, The came the shocker, and this is second time I have heard this, Rigby 470 NE from CA, not being able too hit paper plate at 30 yards with right and left ????????????

Did all they could that mgun would not shoot ?????

Jan, buddy from SA, got a 500 and 9.3, first couple of shots, no good, he was used too Bolt rifle, IN THE LAST WEEK

Next day with some advice from ?? he shot both at 35 and 50 into 1.5 inches left and right,

HE IS NOW ALSO A PROUD MEMBER OF THE CHEAPER THAN SHIT DOUBLE RIFLE THAT DOES GROUP CLUB

Oh I forgot , Jan got a SABATTI , bring out the incense and candles too ward of the bad double rifle spirits

I hear ya Doc! I bought my first Weatherby when I was 18 and dreaming of Africa. As to the other "stuff" here, I'm sure that Rigby was worth every penny, even if it can't hit the side of a barn As to buying a "cheap" double that might "yaw" bullets, well, I guess that gent who bought the Rigby thought it would shoot to only he spent ten times as much for that name. jorge

Well the problem with Rigby in Cali is they employ smiths with little experience with DR and pay not so well so in the end your getting a crap gun basically paying for the name...And as for SAB rifles no matter what is done to them its just putting a 5 dollar saddle on a 2 dollar horse so if your happy with your 4k gun good for you bravo

quote:

Originally posted by Kwan:
Met up with a couple of people last night in Clovis,

Had a chat with Llance and talked about Sabatti etc, The came the shocker, and this is second time I have heard this, Rigby 470 NE from CA, not being able too hit paper plate at 30 yards with right and left ????????????

Did all they could that mgun would not shoot ?????

Jan, buddy from SA, got a 500 and 9.3, first couple of shots, no good, he was used too Bolt rifle, IN THE LAST WEEK

Next day with some advice from ?? he shot both at 35 and 50 into 1.5 inches left and right,

HE IS NOW ALSO A PROUD MEMBER OF THE CHEAPER THAN SHIT DOUBLE RIFLE THAT DOES GROUP CLUB

But I'm not trading my VC for a Sabatti, in this life or any other.

OK, I had been thinking of buying a Sab for use in Africa for DG. With all the varying degrees of accuracy, and possible reworking, here is my question:

For the value minded, which of the double rifles would be the best, dependable, properly formed and indexed, for the money? I am looking at a 416 rigby. Can this be had for under $10K, or is taking a $5K DG and fixing it a worthy project?