Greetings & Happy New Year to the entire forum.

First off I want it known, I don't consider myself to be a "gun guy". A gun snob? maybe. I dig really nice wood, I love to gaze for hours at intricate metal work, always finding something new at each gaze. A seamless wood to metal finish is as close to the beauty of a woman's body as one can get without Divine intervention.

That being said, I don't know shit about guns. I just love the feel, fit and finish of a perfectly integrated artistic killing machine. A fist full of steel and wood given life by an artisan.

Why................Please why, would anybody spend 6,000.00 on a Sabatti budget double? I've watched these threads in amazement since these things hit Cabela's. They don't seem to be regulated at all, My feeling is they simply punch a couple holes in a target, stick it in a box and ship it. It just makes absolutely no sense to me.

What does make sense (to me) is to take the same 6 grand and buy a gently used top grade express bolt rifle. A rifle of that grade would have ALL the niceties, not NONE of the niceties. nice wood, shoot like a dream, and most likely would have been properly cared for.

A used GMA, Dakota, Kilimanjaro, or Empire would be right in that range and be the best in category rather than entry level at best.

Please forgive my ignorance to this but I cant see spending 6K then having to send it out for more work. or put up with too light or unregulated or un timed ejectors or whatever else. I would be anxious to see what these things are like after a couple safari seasons under every bodies belts.

Like I said, please enlighten me.

Nganga

Bolt rifles aint doubles!

I own three and they all work properly.

Bailey, you of all people, an artisan should understand exactly what I'm saying.

Steve

Both of mine were regulated quite well, fit me well, have excellent wood to metal fit, have nicely figured wood and functioned flawlessly.

What was your question again?

And didn't the most highly respected double guy in the USA - J.J. Perodeau - give the Sabatti double he examined a "thumbs-up" and positive feedback?

I also thought a recent gun rag gave it an "A-".

Yes, I agree completely with you - you are a gun snob.

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:
I own three and they all work properly.

Bailey, you of all people, an artisan should understand exactly what I'm saying.

Steve

So what is your point in asking the question?

I own three doubles, not Sabatti doubles. I have spoken to JJ as well and asked him his thoughts as well. Your not being completely honest.

The gun snob thing was meant tongue in cheek bud.

I am being completely honest with the information I have. If you have something different, share what he said to you.

Ignorance forgiven...

He told me if you can live with a gun that will shoot fair at 50 yards and no better, you may be happy with it. He also said that it is a 6 thousand dollar rifle for 6 thousand dollars.

I have yet to see a K or a Heym or a VC or God forbid a Searcy be delivered with a loose trigger guard or a trigger that does not work.

A guy like me that doesn't know shit about guns but likes to kill stuff with them relies on others to produce a product that will not let me down. When hunting I don't want to fiddle, worry fix or even talk to the PH about the damn thing.

It is meant to kill.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:


Ignorance forgiven...

Nice target Jorge.

Interesting that some of the bolt action rifles you mention have been the subject of endless horror stories on these very pages.

Cant say that I disagree with you about buying something and expecting it to work. I think that statement is a far cry, though, from your initial post which speaks to "the really nice wood and intricate metal work" and the "feel, fit and finish" none of which have anything to do with the ability to be a "killing machine".

On a completely different subject but nevertheless a good one, what American Muscle cars do you have or are particularly interested in?

CCMdoc

This is where I get into trouble: I have a love of tradition. Proper African hunting tradition, I am not a range rat, The feel, the fit, the finish in MY OPINION are just as important as getting close, real close. Feeling the stock's perfect fit upon your cheek, getting your finger in position. Listening to your PH instruct you which buff and where to pound him when you summon the thunder.

The entire experience is why I love DR's & DG. I don't expect anybody to agree with me, it's my opinion. DR's belong on track in Africa's dust.

A quote from Fairgame (Andrew Baldry) he gave me that I've included in my book.

"Africa", it's about men and dust and diesel, its sticks to your skin and cannot be washed away, nor does it wane.

American Muscle defined

Dodge Viper
Z06 Corvette
Some scary fast boats

Doc,
To me it all matters.

quote:

Originally posted by Bailey Bradshaw:
Bolt rifles aint doubles!

Short and sweet....and accurate.

Sooooo, the question then begs, why would one of Baileys works of art cost any more that a Sabatti?

I don't own a DR but love to. Even a Sabati.

Let me try to answer Nganga's question. I love my 1903 Mannlicher Schoenauer rifle & my Simson Mauser 98 rifle for the same reasons he mentioned - made by artisans with great balance and a love for metal & wood. No Parker Hale or Winchester comes close. I still hunt with my Kimber Montana because of practical reasons.

I have always been passionate about owning a real DR. I could buy a 30'06 Russian gun today but I would not enjoy it for nostalgic reasons.

I think I would enjoy pretending to be Jim Corbet if I owned a Sabatti.

JMTBW!

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I don't own a DR but love to. Even a Sabati.

Don't let that, or even your inability to spell the make of rifle correctly, stop you from giving your opinion. You have never been to Africa yet you do not let that stop you from telling those who live there how wrong they are about their country.

Happy New Year.

I'm new around here so I'll assume your question is legit.

In my case, I wanted a double and the Sabatti seemed like a reasonable entry level offering. I have a 9.3x74 and based on my experience (limited, I just got it this month and have been out of country for a week) I'm probably going to get a 450 shortly.

All the rifles that are roughly double the cost or thereabouts would not be considered Best Guns, in my opinion. If I'm not getting the best then why spend twice the money to get a comparable item? By comparable I mean functional but certainly not Best.

Looking for a double and coming home with a bolt gun doesn't make any sense. I have occasionally gone out for a pizza and come back with a burger but in every case I had a pizza within a day or so because that's what I wanted.

I have no illusions as to what the Sabatti is and I think I did my due diligence. For the difference in price I was/am willing to risk a lemon and the hassle that goes with getting that remedied by the folks at Cabelas.

Finally, why would anybody spend $60,000 to $80,000 on anything made in Detroit when for the same money they could get a gently used Euro that will still snap your neck off the line and corner on rails too?

Regards,
John

Nicholosi,

Welcome and said far better than I ever could. This is a great forum and you will enjoy the camraderie as well as the debates and learn a lot in the process. I do every day.

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:
CCMdoc

This is where I get into trouble: I have a love of tradition. Proper African hunting tradition, I am not a range rat, The feel, the fit, the finish in MY OPINION are just as important as getting close, real close. Feeling the stock's perfect fit upon your cheek, getting your finger in position. Listening to your PH instruct you which buff and where to pound him when you summon the thunder.

The entire experience is why I love DR's & DG. I don't expect anybody to agree with me, it's my opinion. DR's belong on track in Africa's dust.

A quote from Fairgame (Andrew Baldry) he gave me that I've included in my book.

"Africa", it's about men and dust and diesel, its sticks to your skin and cannot be washed away, nor does it wane.

American Muscle defined

Dodge Viper
Z06 Corvette
Some scary fast boats

Doc,
To me it all matters.

OK, I can't and won't argue with your opinion because your opinion is, well ... yours and it's simply not worth it to argue the inconsistencies within your first post itself and those that follow.

To wit, I was surprised by your definition of "American Muscle Cars" as I wouldn't consider either of those such and have owned and raced (at NHIS, WGI, Mt. Tremblant, VIR, not on the street) both.

American high performance cars? Yes!
Muscle cars? No.

By definition, American Muscle Cars were produced from the late '60s to the early '70s - like my '69 Chevelle SS 396(375) Muncie or my '71 RoadRunner 440 SixPack or my '71 Barracuda convertible or my '71 'Cuda convertible or maybe even my '73 'Cuda hardtop (though that's stretching it as it had a 360 and unfortunately a smog system).

And don't get me started comparing American Sports cars (which I love) to German, Italian or British (again, all of which I have owned and raced) - that would be like comparing ... a Sabatti to an H&H.

It's all good Nganga and we are each entitled to our own opinion. Sharing and disagreeing with them is half the fun.

Stay well and stay safe and have a Happy New Year!

Of course if one is to OWN a beatiful DR, one should reasonably be expected to SHOOT said DR accurately, at say, a hippo, or other such game....

This all being said, I have or have owned quite a few DR's....some "mid-range" DR's and some higher end for a modern DR....never an English DR though. The least expensive was a Merkel and the most expensive was a Heym. All of these rifle performed well for either myself or someone else.
I have never held a Sabbatti....but if one is happy with one's purchase....so be it. I might only question the LONGEVITY of such a rifle compared to a gun costing not much more...the Merkel, for instance, is a tank.

Nothing like stomping thru the bush after buff, elephant, etc. with a DR on the alert......simply magical.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI...hasn't run out yet.
DSC

Bradshaw!!
I hope you use more words than that on the radio on fri.in Dallas

When you factor in import costs and retail mark up, Sabbati is probably getting less than 1/2 of the retail price for these rifles. Pretty amazing effort when you consider that.

Double rifles take A LOT more to build than a bolt rifle. That's why the comparison is difficult to make. A bolt rifle will never double on you, it's reulation never has to be considered, ejectors never have to be timed ect. Let's not get into finish work as it's more than twice what a bolt rifle requires.

Sabbati's are an honest rifle for the price. If they last they may be an exceptional value if you get one with no issues.

CCMdoc,

I understand and agree with the muscle car thing. I added that to my sig line after Shakari,ISS, Frostbit and I hijacked some thread a few months ago and Saeed provided us a car forum. I however do have a 68 corvette that I am doing a complete frame off right now, doing a "resto" mod. (LS7)

Inconsistent? is it consistent to own and rightfully be proud of that fine list of historic muscle? some of the finest Detroit ever created. Why not just own a 73 Maverick with bad valves? or an AMC gremlin perhaps. They are both cars that run fine and will get you to the store and maybe even to the drive in with your date (maybe). Its because you have a passion for that type of car.

I as well have a passion for a certain type of DG hunting, traditional, close with no shortcuts and well earned. Its not about the cost of a rifle at all. We simply disagree, I ask a question on an internet forum, thats all.

I also watch Bailey on these same pages create a perfectly integrated work of art that is nothing short of magic, THAT would be proper tradition. All his passion all his skill put to use in the manner the things were developed for some, what 150 years ago?

With one exception my three DR's are nothing special, A K, a vintage Charles Osborne and a Spanish custom. CCMdoc, by reading this and trying to understand what is written between the lines I bet we are more alike than you may think.

The Garby comment, I met Gary in Zambia's Luangwa Valley. He actually told me about AR, I had never heard of it. I was trying my best to shoot a hippo with my K and just couldn't get it done, missed three or four times. It seems he will never let me forget it

quote:

Originally posted by Bailey Bradshaw:
When you factor in import costs and retail mark up, Sabbati is probably getting less than 1/2 of the retail price for these rifles. Pretty amazing effort when you consider that.

Double rifles take A LOT more to build than a bolt rifle. That's why the comparison is difficult to make. A bolt rifle will never double on you, it's reulation never has to be considered, ejectors never have to be timed ect. Let's not get into finish work as it's more than twice what a bolt rifle requires.

Sabbati's are an honest rifle for the price. If they last they may be an exceptional value if you get one with no issues.

Thank you Mr. Bradshaw. That is saying alot considering the quality "caliber" of your work!

quote:

Sabbati's are an honest rifle for the price. If they last they may be an exceptional value if you get one with no issues.

I think this is exactly my point to this entire thread.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by Nicholosi:
If I'm not getting the best then why spend twice the money to get a comparable item? By comparable I mean functional but certainly not Best.

But are they comparable? I'd teld to think not. Usually people don't give their product away. Most people don't give away 10-12k for 6k. That said I've not shot or held one, so just saying.

Brett

In reply to the main question-"Why would anybody buy $6,000.00 on a Sabatti "budget" double?"

A couple of years ago I had an opportunity to get either a Searcy Field Grade or a off the shelf Merkle... But due to circumstances beyond my control, those options became out of the question because of the price.

So it was beteen the Pedersoli Kodiak double rifles in 45-70, or a Sabatti, and Sabatti won.

I will be the first person to say the wood finish and wood to metal fit is not the best.
I would be the first also to say that Sabattis are not to be compared to ANY "high grade" double, much less a Heym, V.C. Searcy or even a Merkle.
But as I can see, nobody is arguing that fact.


And in answer to the (percieved) underlying question.

I will say that I do (or did) not want a used Dakota/Kilimanjaro/Empire bolt action when compared to a double rifle of (almost) any stripe. I will lay myself a little open here and say a Sabatti is the only double rifle -in a proper dangerous game caliber- that I could reasonably afford.

As Mr. Bradshaw said "a bolt action ain't no double!"

P.S. by the way, Sabattis cost $5,499. for an ejector modle and 5,000. for an extactor modle... not $6,000.

Heck I would love to have the extra $$ laying around to buy a $18,000+ double. Heck even a $10,000. Some of us retired types just don't have than many free $$$ laying around. I know I will never be taking a double to Africa for buffalo much less Elephant. Wouldn't shoot one even if I could. That's my choice.

So my double will be used at the range, a hog or two and dangerous milk jugs. I've held both the Sabatti and Chapuis. Last year everyone was so excited about the group buy on the Chapuis. To me they are in the same category. IN 9.3 the Sabatti is a couple $1000 cheaper. At equal $$ I'd choose the Sabatti. But what do I know.

After driving US cars for 30+ years in 2005 I spent an extra $20,000 to buy one of the wonderful German cars. The biggest piece of $HIT I have ever owned. Every three months something else broke and you couldn't take it in for a light bulb change that wasn't $1000.

You guys that can afford the expense toys and want to buy them great. More power to you. Stop looking down your nose at the ones of us that can't.

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:
Greetings & Happy New Year to the entire forum.

First off I want it known, I don't consider myself to be a "gun guy". A gun snob? maybe. I dig really nice wood, I love to gaze for hours at intricate metal work, always finding something new at each gaze. A seamless wood to metal finish is as close to the beauty of a woman's body as one can get without Divine intervention.

That being said, I don't know shit about guns. I just love the feel, fit and finish of a perfectly integrated artistic killing machine. A fist full of steel and wood given life by an artisan.

Why................Please why, would anybody spend 6,000.00 on a Sabatti budget double? I've watched these threads in amazement since these things hit Cabela's. They don't seem to be regulated at all, My feeling is they simply punch a couple holes in a target, stick it in a box and ship it. It just makes absolutely no sense to me.

What does make sense (to me) is to take the same 6 grand and buy a gently used top grade express bolt rifle. A rifle of that grade would have ALL the niceties, not NONE of the niceties. nice wood, shoot like a dream, and most likely would have been properly cared for.

A used GMA, Dakota, Kilimanjaro, or Empire would be right in that range and be the best in category rather than entry level at best.

Please forgive my ignorance to this but I cant see spending 6K then having to send it out for more work. or put up with too light or unregulated or un timed ejectors or whatever else. I would be anxious to see what these things are like after a couple safari seasons under every bodies belts.

Like I said, please enlighten me.

Nganga

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:
quote:
Sabbati's are an honest rifle for the price. If they last they may be an exceptional value if you get one with no issues.


I think this is exactly my point to this entire thread.

Steve

Daisy Red Rider
Crossman Powermaster .22
American Muscle Cars

Sorry Nganga,

I didn't get that from your first post.

If that is what you meant -

that "Sabatti's are an honest rifle for the price"

and

If they last they may be an exceptional value if you get one with no issues.

Then you are correct - we agree far more than we disagree.

Wowsa, didnt realize some of our members hailed from such elite and upscale blood lines

And to think I actually enjoy my 30 06 Baikal and my under $5K Chapuis actually gives me a chubby. I must be the poster child for double rifle trash.

PS: Don't tell anyone but if a manufactor offered a stainless steel double with a syn stock and removeable side plates I would most likely sell my current rifles to buy one. For some stupid reason these rifles are more fun to hunt with than fondle and admire

quote:

But are they comparable? I'd teld to think not. Usually people don't give their product away. Most people don't give away 10-12k for 6k. That said I've not shot or held one, so just saying.

Brett

Fair enough. I'm not disparaging the merkle, heym or K guns, etc. I just (total know nothing neophyte, mind you) don't think of them as "best guns". In my mind the traditional British makers made/make Best Guns.

I don't doubt that they spend more on manufacturing. It's apparent when handling them even to me.

I don't feel like I got swindled on the Sabatti. I think it will kill what I shoot at. I suppose being the heathen that I am I can accept the lesser fit/finish to be able to have 2 instead of one.

I'll confess to lusting after the Searcy guns and if $10K going through the bank account wouldn't set off the spousal unit's alarms I'd probably have one and might yet.


Regards,

John

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Wowsa, didnt realize some of our members hailed from such elite and upscale blood lines

And to think I actually enjoy my 30 06 Baikal and my under $5K Chapuis actually gives me a chubby. I must be the poster child for double rifle trash.

PS: Don't tell anyone but if a manufactor offered a stainless steel double with a syn stock and removeable side plates I would most likely sell my current rifles to buy one. For some stupid reason these rifles are more fun to hunt with than fondle and admire

Fondling and Admiring

Come on now, Steve.....I never said a word about YOU missing a hippo!!!

Happy New Year, my friend to you and the family.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
DSC

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:

quote:

Sabbati's are an honest rifle for the price. If they last they may be an exceptional value if you get one with no issues.

I think this is exactly my point to this entire thread.

Steve

Here is my opinion in the topic.

1) People ASSUME that when they pay more for soemthing it is more durable and will last longer. I have yet to have one of my BMWs prove more durable and reliable then my Accord DX coupe from many years ago. My MOST expensive car, a BMW 545i was the LEAST reliable.

2) You can easily OVER pay for quality

3) Every major double maker has lemons and a quick search of this forum shows this.

4) Many of the things that add the most to the cost to a rifle have NOTHING to do with function, durability or reliability. Hand engraving, wood to metal fit, hand checkering, Exhibition walnut don't add anthing but $$$ and looks to a gun. Exhibition walnut probably HURTS the strength of the wood.

5) Sabattis are NOT good for Searcy, Heym, Chapuis, Kriegoff etc as well as retailers that don't sell them like Champlins and JJ. I do not recall a larger number of said guns on the used market as you are seeing right now. Why pay $4,500 for a 9.3 Chapuis when you can get a comparible Sabatti for $3,000? It is in the best interest of said gun makers, double gun retailers, and double OWNERS to bad mouth Sabattis.

6) The Sabattis are better looking to my eye then the Heym, Kguns, Chapuis, Merkel, and most Searcys.

7) Cost of labor in Italy is cheaper then Germany. Higher labor costs means more $ and does not mean better quality.

8) Locking up $10K, $15K, $50K $100K in a rifle so you can fondle it and maybe shoot a couple Buffalo and Elephant with is a questionable investment at best. Sure guys were eager to dump money into them when they were going up in price but now that is a very, very risky bet with odds leaning on losing money.

9) Fear and greed always rule. How do you sell an expensive double, tell them the cheaper ones are garbage (fear) and fill their heads with tales of potential appreciation (greed). It is for you to do some research and find out who is full of shit or not and understand everyones angle on the given subject.

:::SIGH::: I'll add my two more cents to the discussion other than my flip posting with the target. It was late and I was tired and cranky. To wit, I went into this rifle with both eyes open and not without some research, not the least of which were Gun Tests, a phone call with JJ himself and of course an extensive visual inspection of the rifles with someone who owns a few "real" doubles (I looked at four of them in person).

The biggest selling point was not the price if you can believe that as I'm sure I could have found a used Merkel for a few grand more. What helped me was of course JJ's endorsement, visual inspection and most importantly why is the price so low? Well the Receiver is CNC machining and that right there is a huge price offset so are labor costs between Italy and Germany. The engraving is machined as well and there is no grip cap. The wood IS nice though, wood to metal finish is spot on, but the checkering could be nicer, it't ain't "London's best" that's for sure.

So far and you guys have seen my running commentary here complete with lots of targets, the rifle works as advertised and yesterday I put it's one hundredth round through it, both factory and reloads and believe me I was happy with the target above and my reloads.

My friend Ernest (AKA the Judge), has shot the rifle and in his words "the triggers are perfect." The sights are dead nuts on at 50 and the ejectors ping the empties into the next zip code. For the record, I like his Searcy better


Others here have reported good results as well and some have had issues, but I've been around here long enough to know other rifles have had issues as well, including Empires, Dakotas and other high end bolts.

If some of you guys are going to DSC or SCI, Cabelas is going to have a few of them there and I invite you to pick one up and give it a good once over, right next to a Merkel like I did. OF COURSE I'd love to have a Merkel instead but I also love the extra five grand in my pocket. This isn't a London gun by any means but after 100 rounds I feel totally confident with this rifle on any hunt. jorge

"elite"? "Wealthy?" I'm retired myself, and started buying DR's then. Started hunting Africa the same year, but after.

It's all about priorities.

I've had the opportunity to shoot three Sabattis' and all three regulated well at 50 yards. Who shoots a big bore DR much past that?

The rifles appear to be well made, and when I spoke with JJ this summer he was favorably impressed with the dozen or so he had seen.

Jorge is right on with his assessment. That five grand you save is almost half of your next trip to Africa.

You do NOT have to buy one if you don't like them, ok?

regards,

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:





Fondling and Admiring

You should have considered putting some nice wood on it though. That chunk of fence post is kind of drab looking.

That rifle aint even a true lefty! It is a wannabe with the right trigger in front.
That is just inexcuseable I could never hunt with it.

quote:

Originally posted by Nicholosi:

quote:

But are they comparable? I'd teld to think not. Usually people don't give their product away. Most people don't give away 10-12k for 6k. That said I've not shot or held one, so just saying.

Brett

Fair enough. I'm not disparaging the merkle, heym or K guns, etc. I just (total know nothing neophyte, mind you) don't think of them as "best guns". In my mind the traditional British makers made/make Best Guns.

I don't doubt that they spend more on manufacturing. It's apparent when handling them even to me.

I don't feel like I got swindled on the Sabatti. I think it will kill what I shoot at. I suppose being the heathen that I am I can accept the lesser fit/finish to be able to have 2 instead of one.

I'll confess to lusting after the Searcy guns and if $10K going through the bank account wouldn't set off the spousal unit's alarms I'd probably have one and might yet.


Regards,

John

Nicholosi,

I'm not sure where you're coming from here. Most folks who have the inclination to buy a double rifle, also clearly understand the difference between a Sabbati and a Merkel/Searcy/Heym, etc.

When you use the term "Best Gun", you need to understand that in traditional terms there are only a few best guns, whether it be DR or shotgun, and those are generally considered to be H&H, Purdey, McKay Brown, Dickson, Boss, and if we allow for a little slippage into continental Europe, a select few Italian and German guns.

There is a definition assigned to best guns, as indicated in Cyril Adams book, I think entitled Best Guns. I don't always agree with Cyril, but who am I to argue?

The term I like to use is "fine gun". I do not consider a Sabbati a fine gun, however, I think that it is what it is; a $5000 double rifle that has it's place in the market, and usually functions well. It is not even close in worksmanship to a Merkel, Chapuis, Heym, Searcy, VC.

Most of these guns are for the most part hand-made, pain-stakingly regulated, hand-engraved, etc. The only complaint about these guns in the past have been in selection of wood grade, although the Germans are getting better at this.

As I have said before, the biggest problem with Sabbati's are not the guns themselves as the entities who represent them; Cabelas and USSG. This is debatable to some, but neither are known for their outstanding customer service or taking care of customers when problems arise.

There are always exceptions to every story.

quote:

Originally posted by mdstewart:

quote:

Originally posted by Nicholosi:

quote:

But are they comparable? I'd teld to think not. Usually people don't give their product away. Most people don't give away 10-12k for 6k. That said I've not shot or held one, so just saying.

Brett

Fair enough. I'm not disparaging the merkle, heym or K guns, etc. I just (total know nothing neophyte, mind you) don't think of them as "best guns". In my mind the traditional British makers made/make Best Guns.

I don't doubt that they spend more on manufacturing. It's apparent when handling them even to me.

I don't feel like I got swindled on the Sabatti. I think it will kill what I shoot at. I suppose being the heathen that I am I can accept the lesser fit/finish to be able to have 2 instead of one.

I'll confess to lusting after the Searcy guns and if $10K going through the bank account wouldn't set off the spousal unit's alarms I'd probably have one and might yet.


Regards,

John

Nicholosi,

I'm not sure where you're coming from here. Most folks who have the inclination to buy a double rifle, also have the brains to clearly understand the difference between a Sabbati and a Merkel/Searcy/Heym, etc.

When you use the term "Best Gun", you need to understand that in traditional terms there are only a few best guns, whether it be DR or shotgun, and those are generally considered to be H&H, Purdey, McKay Brown, Dickson, Boss, and if we allow for a little slippage into continental Europe, a select few Italian and German guns.

There is a definition assigned to best guns, as indicated in Cyril Adams book, I think entitled Best Guns. I don't always agree with Cyril, but who am I to argue?

The term I like to use is "fine gun". I do not consider a Sabbati a fine gun, however, I think that it is what it is; a $5000 double rifle that has it's place in the market, and usually functions well. It is not even close in worksmanship to a Merkel, Chapuis, Heym, Searcy, VC.

Most of these guns are for the most part hand-made, pain-stakingly regulated, hand-engraved, etc. The only complaint about these guns in the past have been in selection of wood grade, although the Germans are getting better at this.

As I have said before, the biggest problem with Sabbati's are not the guns themselves as the entities who represent them; Cabelas and USSG. This is debatable to some, but neither are known for their outstanding customer service or taking care of customers when problems arise.

There are always exceptions to every story.

I think this is very well stated and in a way sort of gets to heart of the original poster's question which is why would one spend that kind of money for a double which most would not consider to be a "fine" gun when for the same money one could buy what most everyone could agree is a "fine" bolt gun. Perhaps the answer is merely "because a double isn't a bolt gun". For me personally, I like fine firearms and would not sink that kind of money into what is apparently a bottom tier double when I could buy a top-tier bolt action or single shot for about the same cost. That said, I think everyone should buy what makes them happy and I wish everyone the best of luck with their Sabattis. Just my $0.02.