I am aware that a rimless cartridge in a double rifle is a supposed afront to decency, moral purity, and the laws of nature. However, I am curious if anyone has first hand knowledge of all of the accursed manifestations rumored to occur with a .375 H&H Rimless Magnum in a double rifle actually happening? To qualify this statment, I mean a decently made rifle such as a Heym, Merkel, Chapuis, or Kreighoff; or H&H for the up-scale rifle with ammo held to factory pressures. The two criticisms I always hear rumor of are the extractor over-riding the rim, and the rifle shooting off face sooner. So rather than talking about someone's friend's cousin's brother who heard of one, I would like direct experience.

quote:

Originally posted by loud-n-boomer:
I am aware that a rimless cartridge in a double rifle is a supposed afront to decency, moral purity, and the laws of nature.

That's the rumour, and where there's smoke, usually, it turns out that there really is fire.

quote:

So rather than talking about someone's friend's cousin's brother who heard of one, I would like direct experience.

Making it clear that a negative answer will be regarded as hearsay means that you don't want an honest answer. You've convinced yourself that the warnings are BS, so go ahead and get one.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Have used a high-end Austrian-made .375 rimless magnum nitro. First time about three years ago, it would not eject, the pawl pulled through the rim and the rifle was out of commission until we knocked the empty brass out with a ramrod. Turned out the rifle needed some soaking to get crud out of the pawl ejector system.

Used same rifle last year after my .375 bolt acquired a cracked stock. Flawless functioning. So, FWIW, I would never have a double in a rimless cartridge because it's just one more thing for my ethic countryman Murphy to operate on...

Regards, Tim

400 Nitro Express:

You are mistaken in your assumption about whether I have a preconceived notion on the answer when you posted:

[QUOTE] Making it clear that a negative answer will be regarded as hearsay means that you don't want an honest answer. You've convinced yourself that the warnings are BS, so go ahead and get one.[QUOTE]

Quite the contrary, I want an honest answer and ask because technology changes, even in classic mechanisms such as double rifles (though IMO not necessarily for the better, i.e. the Blaser). However, given the number of .375 H&H rimless magnum doubles that are in current production by reputable firms, I want to know if the modern guns are still prone to these problems. If they are, there should be some real-world information such as that kindly provided by Tim Carney. I worded the question as I did, because of the number of answers one tends to get that are a regurgitation of old information not applicable to newer technology. I tried to be specific about rifle manufacturers who are currently producing .375 H&H rimless magnum doubles for that reason.

I had a Heym for awhile. Never had any trouble with it, though the extractor looks awfully delicate. I wouldn't worry about it. (I wish I would have kept it).

I think the real kicker in this is that DR's are suppose to be low pressure tools, but the same rifles are shooting high pressure 375's and 458's. The heresy of it all!

quote:

Originally posted by loud-n-boomer:
I am aware that a rimless cartridge in a double rifle is a supposed afront to decency, moral purity, and the laws of nature. However, I am curious if anyone has first hand knowledge of all of the accursed manifestations rumored to occur with a .375 H&H Rimless Magnum in a double rifle actually happening? To qualify this statment, I mean a decently made rifle such as a Heym, Merkel, Chapuis, or Kreighoff; or H&H for the up-scale rifle with ammo held to factory pressures. The two criticisms I always hear rumor of are the extractor over-riding the rim, and the rifle shooting off face sooner. So rather than talking about someone's friend's cousin's brother who heard of one, I would like direct experience.

I am not aware of a .375 H&H RIMLESS Magnum, unless by rimless, you mean the ones with a belt instead of a flang.

While not as totally reliable as a rimmed case, the belted variety use the belt in lieu of the rim, and are more reliable in extraction than a straight rimless case. I've shot a couple of doubles that used the belted variety of cases, and had no extraction problems. But these were NOT EJECTOR rifles, they were the "extractor" variety. Ejectors make a noise, not good on a dangerous game rifle.

I would not hesitate to use a double with a correctly made extractor setup for a belted case instead of a rimmed one. The Heyms I've seen were perfectly satisfactory.

I don't know whether I can give you a valid answer to your question as I have only owned one such rifle. I owned a Heym 88b in 375 H&H and liked it very much. Never had a single malfunction, period. Took it to Africa once but only shot some bait animals with it. It had a selector for extractor/ejector and was usually set on extract. I probably did not fire over 100/125 rounds thru it. All were handloads and were loaded with the same load I used in my bolt guns and regulation was perfect. Ejection was flawless and it threw the empties quite a distance. Loading was not a problem although you had to PUSH the rounds into chambers. I did not have a problem with that but I'm pretty deliberate and not very fast with my motions and would not impress any of the people on this forum with my speed. Quite honestly one of the finest doubles I have ever wished I still had.

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:

I am not aware of a .375 H&H RIMLESS Magnum, unless by rimless, you mean the ones with a belt instead of a flang.

While not as totally reliable as a rimmed case, the belted variety use the belt in lieu of the rim, and are more reliable in extraction than a straight rimless case. I've shot a couple of doubles that used the belted variety of cases, and had no extraction problems. But these were NOT EJECTOR rifles, they were the "extractor" variety. Ejectors make a noise, not good on a dangerous game rifle.

I would not hesitate to use a double with a correctly made extractor setup for a belted case instead of a rimmed one. The Heyms I've seen were perfectly satisfactory.

El Deguello, The belt plays no part in the extraction, or ejection of a cartridge, in a bolt, or a double rifle! The belt is simply a means of headspacing, the cartridge in the chamber because of the steeply sloping case, and very shallow shoulder in most big bore bottlenecked cases, or straight rimless cases. People have always been under the misconcieved idea the belt was there to strengthen the case, and this is not so. It's only job is headspaceing!

Extraction/ejection for rimless cases,in a double rifle, is by something called a "pall" that engages the grouve between the belt, and the rim, with extraction contact applied to the front, or muzzle side of the rim only. The Pall is simply a springloaded tiny contraption, (usually a thin blade, but sometimes a post) that is forced down in a slot, or hole in the extractor body as the rim passes over it, then snaps into the grouve, when the cartridge is fully seated in the chamber. This is the problem, technology is still the same in this respect to rimless, or belted rimless cartridges in double rifles, and has not changed in configuration, or effectiveness since it's inception.

These palls are susceptable to breakage because of being very thin, and jamming in the down postion because of dust, or unburned powder. Or.... Jamming in the up position,from the same reasons, causeing the pall to break off when the rifle is slammed shut. These concerns don't exist in the extractor of a rifle chambered for a rimmed cartridge!

None of this is to say the rimless/belted rimless extractor/ejector will fail at any time that is predictable. However, there is the fact that the more moveing parts, the more likelyhood of a malfunction. The properly set up double rifle of a proper chambering is the most reliable hunting firearm in the world.

However,for every item above the features that make a double rifle into what is actually "TWO completely indipendant single shot rifles on the same stock", is a door open to Mr. Murphy.

So many take the resistance to changes in the classic double rifle to be nostalgic, but that is not the case. There is simply no need to fix something that is not broken.

The double rifle is properly set up when each fireing mechanism is intirely it's own single shot rifle. This is dependant on nothing, if broken, on one side, shutting down the other side. A broken extractor may not shut the whole rifle down, but it might, if a broken pall jams the rifle shut, so it can't be opened!

Many have used double rifles chambered for rimless cartridges without experiencing a problem. JPK, is one who does so without being run over by an elephant, at least so far. He is a believer, and if you are as well, then go for it! I simply don't see the value gained by buying a double rifle in the first place, if you choose to potentually handicap it with gadgits! A low pressure rimmed cartridge of large enough cartridge to get the job done, with as little chance of misshap as one can get, makes sense to me. If it doesn't to you, then do your thing! IMO, leave the rimless, and belted rimless cartridges for the bolt action crowd, and simply use the double rifle as it was intended. It has done a Yoman's job on the most dangerous game in the world for sometime, without any change other than better steel!

loud-n-boomer,
The reason company’s are making rifles in this configuration (for rimless cases) is people are buying them. This doesn’t mean they are a great idea. I don’t know what your plans are or what your experience level is. I would offer the suggestion of a 9.3 X 74R for a 375 class rifle and for the next step up a 450/400. The .470 is the equivalent of the .458 win mag. All have the benefit of being proven rimed cases. The other benefit is rifles chambered for rimed cases will be easier to sell.
Bill

quote:

The double rifle is properly set up when each fireing mechanism is intirely it's own single shot rifle.

Except Head Traumas Rimmed 470 NE is currently doubling. Is that a two-shot single shot or what?

They all can be screwy in some way, not just ones with rimless ejectors.

I have had no problems with my Merkel 375H&H double. Unfortunately, the 9.3x74R is just a little below being legal for dangerous game in several African nations. The great thing about the 375 is the ease of getting factory ammo--and most are regulated for standard factory 300gr. If you decide to purchase one, I would suggest that you get one that is ready for a scope. I do prefer to shoot my Chapuis 9.3x74R and the ammo is cheap for it also. It would be adequate for DG, IMO, and in a few countries in Africa, it is allowed. I'm taking the 9.3 for South American water buffalo and other potential smaller game because it is scoped, and my 375 is not.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

The double rifle is properly set up when each fireing mechanism is intirely it's own single shot rifle.

Except Head Traumas Rimmed 470 NE is currently doubling. Is that a two-shot single shot or what?

They all can be screwy in some way, not just ones with rimless ejectors.

Will the finest double rifle in the world, no matter how it is set up, will double if something in the sear engagement wears, or breaks, or the shooter can't keep his finger on ONE TRIGGER, per shot. That changes nothing in regard to the best, and most reliable way to set up a double rifle!

Thanks to those who have taken the time to give me a serious reply. I have owned two double rifles to date, a Rhodda .450-400 3" and a Valmet 412 in .30-06. I found them both incredibly frustrating, but would still like another (they remind me of a women ).

Since I doubt that I will hunt Africa much more, but do spend a lot of time chasing elk and the like, I would like a scoped medium bore. I like and am already set up for reloading the .375, so it is my first choice. The other round I am seriously considering is the 9.3x74R, and have not ruled it out. My desire for a newly made double is to try and avoid some or all of the frustrations I had with my previous two. Theyt were bought used, and I did get them both to shoot, but spent so much effort doing so, and fixing problems that were not disclosed when I purchased them that I ended up hating both. The up side is that I know from experience some things to look for in a used double. One of the advantages that I have noticed in the 9.3x74 guns is that they are generally about a pound or so lighter than the .375 doubles. Unfortunately, the 9.3x74s seem to all come with shorter barrels, and I prefer 24 or 26-inch barrels.

Dave

I have Krieghoff Big Five in .375 HH (extractor). About 300 shots have been made, not a single problem.

LnB,

Have been looking at new medium bore (in classic terms) doubles, too. The .375 flanged magnum looks interesting, maybe with an extra set of 7x65R barrels. .375 largely because of the possible Africa use in my case.

Of all the makers, Heym, with the higher end intercepting sears sidelock, and Butch Searcy with similar look promising. But they are expensive.

Regards, Tim

The Chapuis 9.3x74R that I had was a nice, lightweight rifle. Seemed to be well made and just plain worked. It is a bargain for the money. Should have kept it (too).

The Chapuis had 23.5" barrels (?). I just don't see what the big deal is about long barrels. What possible difference can 2 or 3 inches of longer barrel make?

loud-n-boomer,
I think you will find that 23.5 is kind of the industry standard for ready built rifles. You will have to get into the “Bespoke†level to get your preferences in barrel length.
The Chapuis 9.3x74R makes a great north American rifle it is easy to mount a scope on and quite handy. The 23.5 length may be shorter than what you prefer but is not a determent to performance.
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Carney:
LnB,

Have been looking at new medium bore (in classic terms) doubles, too. The .375 flanged magnum looks interesting, maybe with an extra set of 7x65R barrels. .375 largely because of the possible Africa use in my case.

Of all the makers, Heym, with the higher end intercepting sears sidelock, and Butch Searcy with similar look promising. But they are expensive.

Regards, Tim

The major detriment to the .375 flanged is the lack of components and no factory ammo. hopefully Hornadey will start loading some soon.
Bill

I feel an O/U in 9.3x74R with a claw mounted scope is a

wonderfully ELEGANT firearm when made well. They come

in all price ranges, they really do, so your budget truly means

a lot. If you care to state your price ceiling I think you can

get better responses. A three barrel rifle, two 9.3 and one

7mm rimmed would be unstoppable for NON dangerous game

if it's weight was kept under control. Check several links on

www.doublegun.com a www.doublegunshop.com too.

have never had a problem with my 375.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Cooley:
The major detriment to the .375 flanged is the lack of components and no factory ammo. hopefully Hornadey will start loading some soon.
Bill

bill norma has 375 flanged in the PH linup.

best regards

peter

Norma has 350 grs. bullets in their PH ammo at 2300 ft/s. Very high sectional density, but I wonder if it regulates? I think most guns are regulated for 300 grs. bullets.

peterdk,
Thanks for pointing that out. I didn’t see it when they first introduced the PH line. I have a friend who will be interested.
I think it is interesting that they are loading the flanged mag to 2200 fps. And the 375 H&H to 2300 fps. They onley load the .458 Lot to 2100 with a 500 gr bullet. I think it is iterating that all the big bore ammo is loaded to 2100, except the 500 Jeffery that is loaded to 2200

338x74R,
Welcom to the forum.
The only way to tell for shure if it will regulate is try it.
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Tim Carney:
Have used a high-end Austrian-made .375 rimless magnum nitro. First time about three years ago, it would not eject, the pawl pulled through the rim and the rifle was out of commission until we knocked the empty brass out with a ramrod. Turned out the rifle needed some soaking to get crud out of the pawl ejector system.

Used same rifle last year after my .375 bolt acquired a cracked stock. Flawless functioning. So, FWIW, I would never have a double in a rimless cartridge because it's just one more thing for my ethic countryman Murphy to operate on...

Regards, Tim

I agree with Tim, The exact same thing happened to me whilst on a Buffalo trip in the Northern Territory ( Australia ) and although the two fast shots from the DR had put him down, I was upset that I only had 1 barrel left when approaching from his rear to put in a final shot if needed.

Cheers from Australia

Interesting comment about the pawl jamming when grungy. While apparently not a common occurance, it does add up to a reason to stick with a rimmed case for dangerous game and confirms that the laws of nature (or at least of Murphy) still hold true for double rifles.

Dave

does anyone know why the makers don't set up the ejectors to take advantage of the belt ?
seems to me they could design an ejector that would push on the front part of the belt to remove the shell.
that would eliminate the need for little spring loaded pins or "pawls" tho i have never had any problems with mine.

i cannot imagine the fine old line firms ( hollands, westley, etc) selling a rimless double rifle with their name on it that they did not have absolute confidence it would function properly. seems most gun problems can be diagnosed to poor maintenance, improper /incorrect load for the rifle and things like that.

if one had trouble with a rimless case functioning properly a clever smith could bush the chamber and convert it to a RIMMED case

Dave
I have fired a few rimless doubles, an 8x57, sevedral 375 H&H's, a 308, and drillings and double rifle drillings in 308 and 30-06.

I have never had a problem with them.

Still, the OWNER of a double rifle company advised me he would rather I get a 375 Flanged or a 9,3x74R from him.

I would recommend for you, baised on what you have stated, that you get a 9,3x74R double rifle.

I have a Chapuis [research my previous posts for more detailed info] and feel free to ask me any specific questions you may have.

I think a SCOPED, 9,3x74R double rifle is one of the best hunting rifles on the PLANET.

It is usually much lighter and trimmer than a 375 H&H or Flanged double.

Anything I could do with ANY 375 rifle, bolt or double, I could, and HAVE done with my 9,3 Chapuis.

I have taken game out to a little over 300 yards.

Bobcat, caracel, beaver, baboon, wild pig, warthog, coyote, civit cat, jackel, impala, whitetail deer, kudu, black bear,zebra, cape buff, giraffe, elephant and several other species have been taken by my 9,3.

For a medium bore double, the 9,3x74R is IMHO the best choice.

quote:

Originally posted by loud-n-boomer:
I am aware that a rimless cartridge in a double rifle is a supposed afront to decency, moral purity, and the laws of nature. However, I am curious if anyone has first hand knowledge of all of the accursed manifestations rumored to occur with a .375 H&H Rimless Magnum in a double rifle actually happening? To qualify this statment, I mean a decently made rifle such as a Heym, Merkel, Chapuis, or Kreighoff; or H&H for the up-scale rifle with ammo held to factory pressures. The two criticisms I always hear rumor of are the extractor over-riding the rim, and the rifle shooting off face sooner. So rather than talking about someone's friend's cousin's brother who heard of one, I would like direct experience.

Here is on opinion you might be interestd in, by Craig Boddington! Regardless of what you may think of OPINIONS the quotes below are his opinion, and mine! The article shows the only reason rimless cartridges were ever chambered in big bore double rifles was because the NE ammo supply dried up, not because they were somehow better for double rifle use!

quote:

“ But 20 years ago there were almost no new double rifle being made anywhere in the world. At the nadir, Holland & Holland would have a couple under construction, likewise continental makers such as Lebeau-Corally, and Ferlach gunsmiths. But even these were most likely to be chambered to unsuitable cartridges such as 458 Winchester Magnum, or 375 H&H.â€

quote:

“Although there are many good tries, and 90 % solutions, nobody has yet been able to build a 100-percent goof-proof double for a rimless, or belted rimless case. Sooner, or later, the extractor , or ejector will slip over the rim ….and Murphy being the optimist he is, chances are it will be at the worst possible time!â€

The above quotes are from pages 70 and 71 of the May-June, 1997 issue of Safari magazine in an article titled The return of the double rifle. This issue also has an article by our own Will titled Third time around about leopard hunting, if any one would like to read that as well.

Mac:

If you read my previous post I am at the point of agreeing 100% based on actual experinces posted by fellow AR members. However, it always worthwhile questioning the conventional wisdom, to see if it still holds true. In this case, it does based on the experiences of Tim Carney and Chapuisarmes.

Thanks for all of the responses. It sounds like a scoped 9,3x74R double may be in my future.

Dave

My wife had a .375H&H by Chapuis that she shot on 2 trips to Africa. No problems with it. I have a new Chapuis in .375H&H that did not want to eject snap caps. I cleaned up the ejectors and now it works like a champ. I suppose oil and cleaning can cure a lot of problems. I agree that a double should have a rimmed cartridge, but I felt the .375H&H has such historic appeal I would get my personal gun in that caliber. I have sold quite a few .375H&hH and no client has told me of any problems.

quote:

Unfortunately, the 9.3x74s seem to all come with shorter barrels, and I prefer 24 or 26-inch barrels.

Dave, check out the Heym 88B's - 24 to 26 inch barrels. I believe my 9.3 x 74 is a shade over 25".

Twenty years or so ago I had a Westley Richards detachable lock .375 H&H Magnum for the belted case. It was a beautifully made rifle that gave constant extraction/ejection trouble with American ammo. Kynoch worked fine. The extractor were not the little pawls but a spring loaded blade that extended around a quarter of the circumference of the case head. The mechanisms simply would not pull the empties out of the chambers.