The reason for "modern cartridges" occured in double rifles when Kynoch quite making the traditional ctgs.

What were double rifle makers to do???
So they chambered for ctgs like the 375 H&H, 458 Win Mag, and even stuff like 338 and 7MM Rem Mag.

Problem was, these ctgs were rimless, and of higher pressure.

So there were reports of guns going off face fairly quickly, and failures to extract/eject.

No doubt some of these reports were true.

But how true were they?

Hard to actually determinbe as there is a lot of hersay, and not much actual first hand reports.

Where is the REAL TRUTH?

First the extraction/ejection issue.

I have experience with 2 rimless drillings, a rimless singleshot, and a few shots with a 375 H&H Chapuis, and a 338 Frans Sodia Double.

I have had NO problems with these guns, but it is a small sample.

Reports fron actual owners of rimless doubles here on AR are needed.

Modern cartridges.
It is well known that highly tapered cartridges cause more case head thrust than modern straight sighted cases.

When Black powder rounds like the 450/400 3 1/4" and the 450 3 1/4" first were loaded with Cordite there were pressure problems.

William Jackman Jeffery, or his friends at Ely figured out if you make the case with a lot less taper, and a bigger rim, the problems would be solved.

Take a look at his 450 No2 aqnd his 475 No2. They l ook more modern than the 460 WBY.

So, can say a 338 Win Mag, or a 458 Win Mag be used in a double, with modern pressure loads, with equal or less thrust on the case head than the 375 Flanged and the 450 Nitro???

Does a straighter case with more pressure compare to the pressure from the older traditional highly tapered cases????

I know a fella that has several British doubles, yet his favorite hunting double is a scoped Heym in 458 Win Mag.

JPK has had excellent results with his Marcel Thys 458 Win Mag.

I recently shot AK shooters Frans Sodia 338 Win Mag, with perfect results.

There are a lot of 375 H&H doubles and frankly I have not heard of any problems with any of them.

A couple of people here on AR have 30-06 doubles and report no problems.

So, MY question is...

How many of you have doubles in modern calibres, and what have your results been?

Very interesting discussion ...... I'd like to have a medium power cartridge in a double, but have heard stories of ejection/extraction issues. I'll also be interested in hearing of experiences of owners with "modern cartridge" doubles, i.e., .30-06, .375 H&H, etc.

My only experience is with a friends Chapuis in 375. It broke3 or 4 of the little wings that hook the rim and had about a 30% chance of the extractor popping over the rim..

He had it fixed every time but sold it without shooting it the last time.

This was about 15 years ago so things may have changed, but I doubt too much.

African Hunter Mag has an article where the author claims it happened to him on two separate rifles.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Numbe...age=0&gonew=1#UNREAD

For a historical view you might look at some of the old German, Austrian single shots and combo guns.

Many of these worked with cartridges that were much higher pressure than the old British rounds.

Johnny has an old single shot chambered for 5.6 x 61 Vom Hoff talk about pressure it's got it. That gun gets sticky cases almost every time but it's still completly on face and it was built in 1942.

Some of the other high pressure rounds of the day are 7x75R Vom Hoff 6.5x58 Forester 8x75R and even rounds like the 7x65R were high pressure compared to the old British rounds.

I don't know how well most of these held up through extended shooting. My 6.5x57R BBF was off face when I bought it that was a simple fix and it's been tight ever since. I don't know how long it took that gun to get loose but I expect it took most of the 50 years it was around before I aquiered it. Maybe some of you out there have some of these guns and can share with us.

I still contend that the problem with these guns that don't hold up is more a factor of bolt thrust and not pressure. These small and medium caliber cartridges arn't going to generate as much bolt thrust as the big bores. Even the British were producing high pressure small bores back in the early days. I belive it was Westley Richards who made a number of doubles in .22 savage high power I would be curious what the copper crush units was when they proofed these compared to a much lower pressure big bore like a .470.

Fast forward to today weather the old guns held up or not I belive better matierials are being used today. Harder hinge pins c.n.c. milled recivers etc. I have to think this will give much longer life than the old forged parts.

As far as extraction is concerned. A rimmed case will always be a better way to go But then again gunmakers have been refining these button extractors for more than 50 years and todays guns are working pritty good.

Have had 2 Valmet rimless barrel sets. Both extracted perfectly and were on face when I sold them. I owned a Heym 88b in 375H&H that had been well used when I bought it. I fired probably 300rounds with zero malfunctions and it was perfectly on face when I traded it in. It would eject an empty across the room when I sold it. It was absolutely reliable.

Gator 1
Was your friend shooting factory ammo ro reloads??

But all is back to normal, so to speak, and I don't see why buyers now choose rimless in a DR. I haven't. I think not enough factory rifle chamberings in 375 Flanged moves some buyers right into 375 H&H as they aren't looking to buy more gun. That 416 Chapuis rimmed died didn't it? Don't recall the load exactly but I'd love a 416 Rigby Rimmed.

Ah... the 416 Chapuis Rimmed.
Here is the story as I know it.
A Square did the development work on it for Chapuis. Krieghoff, seeing a market came out with the 500/416 KRIEGHOFF. The "German/French" thing being what it is, Chapuis canned their 416 project.

It is a shame as a @.400 double is a great calibre.

I must say if all the modern double rifle makers would just make a 450/400 3" [aka 400 Jeffery] it would probably be a very popular calibre.

Also if they would make a 375 Flanged, and someone like Federal or Hornady would load the ammo, it too would be popular....

However the 9,3x74R has much to recommend it as the best calibre for a double under .40 cal.
I will start a seperate thread on this later.

But the double rifle market is very, very small, compared to the rifle industry as a whole.

Hornady loading the 450/400 3", and Heym making 450/400 3" doubles may be a new birth.

I firmly believe that the 450/400 is the best double rifle calibre for ther modern big game hunter.
As a PH you might want more, but for the hunter the "400" is a very good choice.

Showbart
If you were to get a double in 450/400 3" [aka 400 Jeffery], 450/400 3 1/4" [I have one of these], or 500/416 it would fullfill all of your double rifle dreams.

PS: If you scoped it, with a scope in QD mounts, it would fulfill ALL of your Big bore Rifle dreams.

There are two factors here that when you move from one,you will experience the draw backs of the other, high pressure, and case taper!

The old streight cased NE cartridges were fine as long as pressures were low in the black powder days, but with the transition to smokeless powder the problems began. The case began to stick. The fix, at that time, was to make the case more tapered, and it worked. This worked because a tapered case has only to move a microscopic amount, to be completely free of the chamber walls. For a time this was all that was needed, then the move to smaller bore cartridges, for more speed (EXPRESS TRAIN) cartridges. This presented the old sticky case again, so cartridges like the 450#2, and the like were tried, and the straight case made it worse. They finally found the culprit to be the strength of the case, to be the biggest problem. Once the cases were made considerably stronger the problem went away, again.

Once the industry reached the fairly modern powder of CORDITE, the old problem showed up again, when the ammo was used in the heat of the tropics, of Africa, and India. Then they, came out with lower, or TROPICAL LOADS, or went back to the tapered case to relieve this problem. Now inter the true(at the time) modern cartridges like some of the WR rounds, and then later the 375 flanged. By this time they had learned that the tapered case was far more reliable when it came to extraction, when the pressure got higher. With the softer steels many of the double rifles started going off face with high pressures of some of the new cartridges in doubles, and break top single shots. With the single shots some were remidied by makeing the actions drop block, instead of break top, but that didn't help the doubles, they still were experiencing problems. By about 1910, alomst all the problems experienced with the higher pressures had been solved, by makeing the cases stronger (MUCH stronger for the straight walls cases, like the 450#2, and 475#2 later) and in some makeing the case more tapered. Then after all the great wars, the Britts, and Europians
lost all interest in the hunting of Africa, and india, because of their re-construction of their countries. To top this off, many of the old NE rounds were discontinued, buy the ammo makers, and supplies began to dwindle.

If the rifle makers were to stay in business, thay had to built their rifle for more modern cartridges like the 375H&H belted mag, and a little later the 458 Win Mag, also a belted case both being high pressure. The 458 Win mag caused less case thrust, because of the faily straight case, while the 375 H&H Mag caused more extraction problems because of the combination of high pressures, and the tapered case developing more case thrust. Finally the started to fix the problem with the steel, and the way they made the rifles, them selves. The off face problem was more or less solved with this,but the failed extraction was still bearing it's ugly head on occasion. Better designs of the extractors, helped, an in recent years there seems to be much less issue with the rimless, and belted rimless cartridges in double rifles, as long as one buys the better rifles. However, these rimless, and belted rimless, high pressure rounds in double rifles have a much more probability of malfunction than the rimmed NE cases, IMO!

Today, I don't think one need worry about the rifles going off face, because if the higher pressures of modern cartridges in a double, as much as they do with imporper care of the rifle's mateing surfaces. I would say that 90% of the off face today with NEW rifles, is more aimed at poor care of the rifle it's self, or an over zelous handloader, not factory, or equivelant ammo. Still the tiny palls, used in most doubles for extraction, worry me, if the rifle is to be used for close in use on dangerous game. The extraction devices on rimmed Express cased rifles are far more robust, and, again IMO, are far less likely to fail.

SO! Again, IMO, the things that have more or less been fixed are the steel in the rifles, the case shape,and stringth. The things that still worry me are the ejection system, and I must admit, it is far better than it was way back, because of better, stronger materials, but the extractor design is still too small for reliable, long time use in dangerous sittuations!

As with anything, most will work the way intended by the maker, but when it doesn't work, disaster could follow, but I'll read about it on the internet, not see it first hand!

I was trying to remember the 500/416 while writing my last post. Memory fades fast late at night even under 50. Is that bigger case going to dictate a larger barrel contour than the 450/400? Terrific ballistics. But like the rimless, shouldn't we avoid high pressure rounds in DRs? A spring extractor not being as positive as a mauser big claw?

I've passed on the 450/400 for my first big bore double and chose 470. I don't want to second guess that decision! Especially seeing as it was more between the 470 and the 500.

My inclination now is to hop in the 9.3 bandwagon in lieu of the 450/400. What a wonderful cartridge. It's not a high pressure round, is it?

To me the 450/400 fits in a bracket of performance that would be ideal for dangerous game. I know it is a matter of time before I have a rilfe in this caliber.

I have a set of 30/06 barrels for a Blaser S2 that I have not had any problems with. The S2 is not a traditional double. The double rifle market as was stated previously is not as large as the bolt market. Most buyers of double rifles are looking for tradition.
Do you think it would be met with resistants to make a double less traditional in order to get performance with cartridges found over the counter more readily?

Hornady's loading of the 450/400 NE 3" 400gr is listed as ME of 3732 ftlbs with vel of 2050 fps. A-Square lists velocity as 2150, ME of 4105 ftlbs.
Standard Federal loads of 375 H&H 300gr at 2530fps give 4263ftlbs.

I have a Merkel in 30-06 caliber and have shot it over 500 times, no ejection problems to date. I am using handloads and they are reduced about 9% from max loads for 180grain bullets.

I have 2 x 375H&H Doubles. A modern Merkel (Extractor) and a Sarasqueta (Ejector).

Don't have problems with either of them and have put plenty of shots through the Merkel as has a friend who is using it at the moment.

And as to the issue of "375H&H Doubles coming off the face", having spent quite a few years on these forums, I would say 2 things.
1. Users are very quick to blame the item, gun, bullet etc before themselves and
2. IF it occured (coming off the face) the way some people reload, it wouldn't surprise me if some of them had high pressure load and over time this caused it - IF it occured.

From Personal experience and I own DR's in all the calibres listed below + the other traditional English ones:-

I will say that Extracting 375H&H cases by hand isn't as easy as in an Ejector gun.

In preference, I would take a 9.3 x 74R over a 375H&H Double.

In the field, I don't think you would notice the difference between a 9.3 x 74R and a 375H&H FLANGED MAGNUM.


Just my thoughts.

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:
Hornady's loading of the 450/400 NE 3" 400gr is listed as ME of 3732 ftlbs with vel of 2050 fps. A-Square lists velocity as 2150, ME of 4105 ftlbs.
Standard Federal loads of 375 H&H 300gr at 2530fps give 4263ftlbs.

A-Square has overloaded the flanged nitros for years. Hornady's .400 is a correct standard load. A-Square's is not.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
My inclination now is to hop in the 9.3 bandwagon in lieu of the 450/400. What a wonderful cartridge. It's not a high pressure round, is it?

CIP max average for the 9.3X74R is 3400 BAR or 49,312 PSI.

To give you an idea:

.375 H&H Magnum is 4300 BAR or 62,366 PSI
.375 Flanged Magnum is 3250 BAR or 47,137 PSI
.470 is 2700 BAR or 39,160 PSI
.450/.400 3" is 2800 BAR or 40,610 PSI
.500/.416 is is 3150 BAR or 45,687 PSI

It ain't real low, but it isn't high either.

As to Tony's question, "modern" (high pressure rimless) cartridges in double rifles were a rube-goldberg, stop-gap answer to yesterday's problem - one which no longer exists. It doesn't make sense anymore, and was never better than a "square peg in a round hole" solution anyway.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I owned a double in .30-06. It was great shooting and I used it here and in Africa to take numerous head of game including Blue Wildebeest.

It functioned fine, no problems in the field and very accurate. It was of the Krieghoff variety.

One of theos rifles I wish I still had.

Sold it off to pay for a second set of barrels for my DG double. (also a Krieghoff). I went with the 9.3x74R for that as I really like the 9.3 caliber and the rimmed cartridge was more traditional.

Again, I'd take one in a modern cartridge again any time.

"I owned a double in .30-06. It was great shooting and I used it here and in Africa to take numerous head of game including Blue Wildebeest.

It functioned fine, no problems in the field and very accurate. It was of the Krieghoff variety.

One of theos rifles I wish I still had.

Sold it off to pay for a second set of barrels for my DG double. (also a Krieghoff). I went with the 9.3x74R for that as I really like the 9.3 caliber and the rimmed cartridge was more traditional.

Again, I'd take one in a modern cartridge again any time."


?? So you sold off a "modern" DR to pay for a "traditional" set of barrels....???? Yet you would "take a modern cartridge again any time".

The logic escapes me but I'm sure the local gun store loves you!

I know of a couple of instances wherein a double in .458 and another in 375 H&H jumped the rim for what its worth. I have been informed that Merkle dropped the 375 H&H, and perhaps the 416 Rigby from its line of calibers, both are rimless, sooooo??????.

I have used several of the big bore calibers in double rifles, and now I am going back to my all time favorite the 450-400-3", Butch is putting it together for me to baptise on a Bison this fall and to take to Tanzania in 2008 with Butch, Bill MOrrison and a couple of others, I see no need for anything bigger, I can't tell any difference in the field. Patiently waiting on HOrnady.