There's still some Gold box on shelves here and there. Geronimo didn't say it was Cape Shok. I know I'm but with all this confusion, for 100 years now, I want to be clear. I'm going to inspect some Cape Shok tomorrow.

To also add; in rereading Robertson he does in fact mention the longer test barrels. My oversight, but he is obviously aware of it.

I'm trying to get to the bottom of the Norma data, test bbl lenghts for both 470 & 500 and what's up with the different 470 velocities in their 2 ammo lines it appears in.

RIP

RE: YOUR TARGET SO PROUDLY SHOWN

you must have some new technique i'm not familiar with in numbering shots.

back east we shoot 1 r (right) and 1 l (left)

that is a pair of shots - one from each barrel.


applying this to your target MOST OF YOUR SHOTS NOT ON PAPER !

where is 1 l ?

and only one of the #2 shows

numbers 3 are missing totally

and only one #4

maybe i'm missing something ?????

A NOTE ON FIRING CORDITE AMMO IN DOUBLE RIFLES

In case you are not aware, after firing cordite ammo you must flush out the bores with hot water to remove the cordite salts that are not removed by nitro solvents.

this instruction is from david little of kynamco and echos the same instructions from eley kynoch years ago.

BE WARNED !

quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:
A NOTE ON FIRING CORDITE AMMO IN DOUBLE RIFLES

In case you are not aware, after firing cordite ammo you must flush out the bores with hot water to remove the cordite salts that are not removed by nitro solvents.

this instruction is from david little of kynamco and echos the same instructions from eley kynoch years ago.

BE WARNED !

Tomo

I thought it was the Primers that were corrosive, not the Cordite.

Heard back from Ake Nilsson at Norma. All test barrel lengths are 24". The PH line 470 load is as posted 2100 fps as is the 470 Hunting load at 2165 fps with all loads being 500 grainers.

Federal list 24" test bbls, pretty sure that will be for all, appears to be the modern standard. I'll contact them to find out more about what's up with the Cape Shok 470, volume of fill, why no filler/wad etc.

it is the primers, tom isn't a gunsmith

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I agree with MacD37's recommendation on how to fix the Federal loads.

My erratic Federal performance was indeed with a Merkel 470 NE. I guess the factory regulates the rifles with their own handloads using the TBSH bullet and proper velocity. More uniform ammo at the Merkel factory must surely be required to regulate, than what comes from the Federal Shaker loads.

Time for me to post a favorite handload target in the Merkel 470 NE Plain Jane 140A or 140-2.0 (Again! Those tired of seeing it should avert their eyes now.):



Edit for Tomo:
1 Right
2 Left
3 Right
4 Left

Simple. The only trick here is that 2 of the shots went into one widened hole. Can you , tomo, figure it out?

Tomo577,
I have more targets with same labeling of 4 shot groups for you to study if you wish.

quote:

Originally posted by tomo577:
A NOTE ON FIRING CORDITE AMMO IN DOUBLE RIFLES

In case you are not aware, after firing cordite ammo you must flush out the bores with hot water to remove the cordite salts that are not removed by nitro solvents.

this instruction is from david little of kynamco and echos the same instructions from eley kynoch years ago.

BE WARNED !

Cordite is a conventional double base propellant, and is no more corrosive than any other, nor does it leave salts in the bore. Kynoch stuck to corrosive priming for Cordite cartridges for a long time due to shelf life issues with non-corrosive caps, and it's the corrosive caps that leave salt deposits in the bore. Cordite ammo with corrosive caps (copper cup) is corrosive as hell and bores need flushing with hot water. Kynoch Cordite ammo with non-corrosive caps (brass cup) isn't corrosive in any way. Kynoch changed to non-corrosive caps in 1958. No more than a glance is needed to determine which you're shooting.
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Went shaking today. Federal Cape Shok 470 definitely has some unfilled space in the case, but, so does Hornady 450/400. It sounds nearly as loose as the 470 or maybe proportionately is has just as much free case space just in a smaller case.

Not very scientific. The Federal is RL 15 and the Hornady .400 is IMR 4831. Not near as much air space in the .400 load.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
Not very scientific. The Federal is RL 15 and the Hornady .400 is IMR 4831. Not near as much air space in the .400 load.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Oh yeah! I'm very scientific. She blinded me with science. Yep lotsa space in the 470 but I got the impression that there was PLENTY of space in that 450 case too.

Got a call in to ATK (Fed. Cart.) tech. Let's see what they say.

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
Got a call in to ATK (Fed. Cart.) tech. Let's see what they say.

Originally, 87 grains non-caniser grade Reloder 15, no filler, F216 primer.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

So what do you use to pull bullets? The only puller I ever used was some hammer type thing for much smaller cases. Then what filler?

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
So what do you use to pull bullets? The only puller I ever used was some hammer type thing for much smaller cases. Then what filler?

I use the RCBS Inertial puller (the plastic hammer type) for .450/.400. As far as I can recall, I've only used the collet type for .470.

You're not honestly thinking of pulling bullets from factory loads to add filler are you? Why bother? Load it yourself. The Hornady .400 is cheap enough for volume shooting, but the price of the Federal .470 is a joke. Doesn't make much sense to rely on factory ammo for a double rifle, price and availability being only a small part of the reason.
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

No just more learnin' for me. Pull 'em and look inside and see what's what. I'll reload. But all this was started due to regulation on a new rifle. When it's done I'll check it but will only rarely buy factory.

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
No just more learnin' for me. Pull 'em and look inside and see what's what. I'll reload. But all this was started due to regulation on a new rifle. When it's done I'll check it but will only rarely buy factory.

Sorry I misunderstood. I've been doing the same thing for years.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Spoke to an engineer at Federal today. Maintains the Cape Shok is consistent, doesn't need filler, really is 2150 out of 24" test bbl and is within SAAMI pressure specs. He receives nothing but good feedback from industry partners and industry end users, PH's in the field, clients returning from the field and shooters. Stated that almost all new manufacture Euro continental 470's bound for the US are regulated on it with Merkel and Chapuis for certain, likely Heym, Krieghoff etc. He also strongly recommends that it NOT be fired in older guns unless they've been given a clean bill of health but that it may actually be best to avoid it and shoot Kynoch or handloads worked up to Kynoch specs.

I'm going to have my 470 regulated on the Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer Solid. I think it'll kill exactly as well as a 500NE RN at 2100.

And you expected him to say...?

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
He also strongly recommends that it NOT be fired in older guns unless they've been given a clean bill of health but that it may actually be best to avoid it and shoot Kynoch or handloads worked up to Kynoch specs.

Only about 80% of the DR rifle market in that caliber. There's a boy who shouldn't play with sharp objects.
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
And you expected him to say...?

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
He also strongly recommends that it NOT be fired in older guns unless they've been given a clean bill of health but that it may actually be best to avoid it and shoot Kynoch or handloads worked up to Kynoch specs.

Only about 80% of the DR rifle market in that caliber. There's a boy who shouldn't play with sharp objects.
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

shhhh! don't tell XXXgrains that the 470 was ever popular, even before federal loads

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
And you expected him to say...?

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
He also strongly recommends that it NOT be fired in older guns unless they've been given a clean bill of health but that it may actually be best to avoid it and shoot Kynoch or handloads worked up to Kynoch specs.

Only about 80% of the DR rifle market in that caliber. There's a boy who shouldn't play with sharp objects.
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I don't want Kynoch specs. Keep in mind Norma is doing the exact same thing. One load is 2100 fps, the other is 2165 fps along with Fed's 2150 all out of 24" bbls. Unless some armchair type here can verify pressure then these loads are SAAMI spec for pressure.

The gun and ammo makers are in bed and going at it. I doubt seriously if either segment cares about 100 year old English DRs. These folks are intersted in selling new guns. The ammo makers listen to the gunmakers. The gunmakers will tell you that they have a better product than that old gun, a stronger gun shooting modern loads.

Again it goes back to what, if anything, can one find out about Cape Shok that is negative other than by shaking the case. Now THAT'S scientific. I'm on to finding out if Norma uses any filler.

It's compelling that so many new DR makers use Cape Shok for regulation.

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
I don't want Kynoch specs. Keep in mind Norma is doing the exact same thing. One load is 2100 fps, the other is 2165 fps along with Fed's 2150 all out of 24" bbls. Unless some armchair type here can verify pressure then these loads are SAAMI spec for pressure.

The gun and ammo makers are in bed and going at it. I doubt seriously if either segment cares about 100 year old English DRs. These folks are intersted in selling new guns. The ammo makers listen to the gunmakers. The gunmakers will tell you that they have a better product than that old gun, a stronger gun shooting modern loads.

Again it goes back to what, if anything, can one find out about Cape Shok that is negative other than by shaking the case. Now THAT'S scientific. I'm on to finding out if Norma uses any filler.

Said the man who has never owned a double rifle. What pure BS.

Federal .470 ammo isn't consistent, doesn't reliably produce 2150 fps in 24" barrels, and who gives a shit about the SAAMI .470 specs, which nobody in the world but Federal use, and which have never been updated from CUP because nobody uses it.

quote:

It's compelling that so many new DR makers use Cape Shok for regulation.

That's because there was nothing else available when Federal introduced it in 1989, and remained so for quite a while after, and has been the easiest .470 factory ammo to get in quantity ever since. Not for any other reason. There's nothing "compelling" about it at all.
--------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Compelling in the sense that if the ammo consistently had problems it would be causing problems, especially during regulation, and all along the line afterwards. I'm addressing Cape Shok. I don't care what happened with Federal Gold box. I'm interested in the here and now. Not the past.

I've owned one double rifle.

Someone here was interested in comparing cordite vs modern smokeless pressure curves. So I asked. I could care less about SAAMI. Point being is modern loads don't exceed whatever SAAMI states. 35K cup? Norma also uses some industry guideline and does not exceed it.

Where's the proof that Cape Shok is inconsistent? NOT Gold Box. What "Federal" was Chris shooting in the Heym that hit 2220? I'll ask him myself.

Response from GSI;

David,

Our Merkel double rifles in caliber 470NE are regulated from the factory at 75 meters using Federal load number P470T2 which is the Premium Cape Shok Trophy bonded sledgehammer solid 500 grain for your information. At the distances the 470NE caliber is designed for shooting the other loads should be extremely close to the same impact as the solid load, hope this information helps you, if you have any further questions or concerns please let me know, Thanks!

Best regards,

Kent Barnard

Merkel USA

The exact load of the 4 available in Cape Shok line that I've chosen to have my Demas regulated on. And partly as a result of what came of this thread. I sure hope I didn't screw up or else I'll have to get a 500!

I think I'd get a similar response from many current big DR makers. I don't care that it's because FED is/was the only game in town. It matters because I don't hear how 470's from Merkel, Chapuis, Heym, Krieghoff, Blaser and who knows who else, how all the guns shoot like shit. If the ammo was shit then regulation would be shit and afterwards the gun would still shoot like shit. This has been enlightening and helped me make up my mind. And if the Frogs building my gun have already regulated on Norma then at least it's clocking how I want it to clock. I'm out.

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
Compelling in the sense that if the ammo consistently had problems it would be causing problems, especially during regulation, and all along the line afterwards. I'm addressing Cape Shok. I don't care what happened with Federal Gold box. I'm interested in the here and now. Not the past.

This is true. If the ammo used in regulation was very inconsistent, regulation could not be what it should be.

JPK

Try this with the Federal 470 ammo.

Chrono some rounds, by first pointing the loaded gun at the ground, raise to level and fore....

Then chrono some rounds, first pointing the rifle straight up, lower to level and fire.

Report results here.

Not a highjack, but how consistant are Kynoch loads? From what I understand, they use their foam filler wads just like we hand loaders do.

Geronimo

Spoke with Chris at Heym and he thinks the hot round, 2220, he chrono'd was not so old as to be Fed Gold box.

Word has it Norma does not use any filler in 470/500. I have email in to a Norma engineer and the US distributor is also looking into it.

Chris spent alot of time with me explaining alot about regulation. Many Heyms are regulated on Cape Shok. There's more to it all, again, then I realized. I'm likely to find a load that my gun will like at reasonable speed, more in the 2100's not 1900's to 2K, with the bullet I want. That bullet is a meplat which JPK enlightened me to in a 458WM/Lott thread. That meplat's performance being just spectacular on ele's shot.

I really pushed the point with the Federal engineer about consistent ignition at any angle the case may be in. # 2 I will in fact do that and report back. Gun is due in Oct, we think. I won't make any fuss at all if my gun is already regulated especially seeing as Ken at Kebco and I decided that my 470 and the other 3 he had on order should be regulated on Norma.

quote:

Originally posted by Geronomo:
Not a highjack, but how consistant are Kynoch loads? From what I understand, they use their foam filler wads just like we hand loaders do.

Geronimo

No hijack at all. I find all this fascinating, especially when exchanges are not acrimonious.

I'll hijack a little myself. Filler, more than in other cases, seems to be needed without question in the big honking cases of the 450 #2 and 475 #2.

In 2000-2001, Merkel was claiming regulation with TBSH 470 NE bullet loaded by Federal, and at 50 meters. My test target from the factory is marked, 50 meters.

Of course a properly regulated rifle should be shooting parallel side-by-side groups whether at 50, 75, 100, 200, or infinity meters.

It sounds like the Federal Cape Shok 470NE ammo is no different than the Federal Premium Safari (gold box) other than differences in the bullets, if any.

I find it hard to believe that the European factories would all be dependent on getting pre-loaded ammo from Federal to regulate with.

I suggest they are loading their own to supposed Federal specs and using the specified bullets of the Federal loads they claim to be regulating for.

I think they regulate on Fed as it's (was) the only brand here. I don't know if some switch was going down.

It stand's to reason that the ammo is of course nearly very much the same. But if the stuff coming off the line now is more consistent then I let's see it. That's what this is about. Right now I'm more than less inclined to be OK with the Cape Shok. Anyone who's done what 450#2 suggests speak up. When gun's here I will and I will.

Showbart,

Thanks for the aknowledgement about the North Forks, but recall that 450 NE No2 was who turned me onto them.

I'd bet that Federal shipps tons of deeply discounted or free 470NE ammo to any European makers who want it so that they will regulate with the Federal ammo and then tell every customer that the rifles were regulated with Federal and insure that lots of the ammo get bought, at premiium prices, by the guns owners. For everyone of us who reloads for their rifle, there must be 100 who do not.

For every one of us who understands regulation, or at least has a workable base, there must be 300 who do not.

JPK

JPK

quote:

I find it hard to believe that the European factories would all be dependent on getting pre-loaded ammo from Federal to regulate with.

I suggest they are loading their own to supposed Federal specs and using the specified bullets of the Federal loads they claim to be regulating for.

I'm with RIP on this one. With the pain invloved in properly regulating a double, why take a chance with some off the shelf box of ammo? The makers could do their own quality control on the ammo used. The last thing a double maker needs if a few unhappy customers complaining that the rifle doesn't shoot. If they load their own ammo to Federal spec, they at least eliminate one variable. And it has to be a whole lot cheaper for the makers to follow that course than to maintain an inventory of federal ammo imported from the USA.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Try this with the Federal 470 ammo.

Chrono some rounds, by first pointing the loaded gun at the ground, raise to level and fore....

Then chrono some rounds, first pointing the rifle straight up, lower to level and fire.

Report results here.

I already did that.

Jim Manion,
Thanks for your intelligent comments. Almost as good as your comedic ones.

And that's OK by me, as long as it's loaded to that spec, for me meaning modern spec. If my gun is regulated on Norma it likely will shoot Cape Shok just fine.

After my chat with Chris at Heym I learned that a good rifle, well regulated will digest a number of bullets/loads as long as it's loaded on or near regulation spec. The one gun nobody wants is the picky one that only likes one load.

More reason that I don't want my gun loaded on Kynoch spec, 2125 fps/31" bbls.

In fact the bulb just went off! I don't need to ask my gunmaker to go out and find Federal, maybe they didn't bother to go find any Norma. I know they have Kynoch but when we initially asked to reg on Norma maybe they just loaded some up to 2165 fps/24" bbls. Works for me!

RIP
If you have done that, please post the results.

I am not knocking Federal factory ammo.

Over the years I have found it to be very good in all the calinres I have shot it in. However, with the 470, it might not be their best effort, according to people that have shot a lot of it.

I will say that the fact that Federal is loading 470 ammo, not a high volume seller, is to be commended.

Like wise Hornady for loading 405 Win, 9,3x74R and 450/400 3".

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I find it hard to believe that the European factories would all be dependent on getting pre-loaded ammo from Federal to regulate with.

I suggest they are loading their own to supposed Federal specs and using the specified bullets of the Federal loads they claim to be regulating for.

Accoring to Norma's catalouge both Merkel, Krieghoff, Chapius and Blaser are using Norma ammunition for test and regulation of their rifles;



See their catalouge;
http://www.norma.cc/assets/pdf/npkatalog%20sv.pdf

The African PH catalouge;
http://www.norma.cc/assets/pdf/np%20african%20ph%20folder%2006.pdf

husky

By the way, Norma are also making the .470 brass for Federal..

Husky we've been differentiating between 470 guns sold in Europe and those sold in the US. It's the guns sold here that are most often regulated on Federal.

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
Husky we've been differentiating between 470 guns sold in Europe and those sold in the US. It's the guns sold here that are most often regulated on Federal.

Are you really sure about that?

The rifles would then be made by order from the U.S importers, and the rifles shoul have been marketed by Merkel et consortes as regulated with Federal ammunition or regulated with Norma ammunition.

In the stream lined world we live to day, there everything should be "cost effective" i doubt that the european makers are regulating their rifles with different ammunition depending on where the market is.

What happeneds if let's say Merkel is out of stock with Norma .470 regulation ammunition and they are having an European order for rifles. Do they wait for Norma ammunition to arrive or do they regulate the rifle's with Federal ammunition and sell the rifles??

I think that they rather hope for that there shouldn't be any difference between Federal and Norma...

Well, yes, it has been said just a few post prior that the gunmakers are saying that they regulate on a specific brand of ammo when in fact they may just be regulating on an ammo makers specifications, not actually buying up boxed ammo to use which would eat up their profits.

This thread has been great and much has been learned, by me anyway. I got worried that my rifle should be regulated on this brand or that brand, but what has come to light is that it doesn't really matter as long as the rifle is done on a load that is within the range of say Norma or Hornady. Then handload. Again, I just didn't want to have it regulated on Kynoch (specs).

Essentially there is very little difference between Norma(Hunting line) and Federal(Cape Shok). The Norma PH line of ammo is a little different than these two and for the life of me I can't figure why they laid down new specs for the 470 in the PH line, slowing it down.

Husky, is the PH line in stores and for sale in Europe?