My search for this brought back zip!

Anyone here chronograph factory 470NE from Federal and/or Norma?

The Federal is all over the place. Spoke to a guy not long ago that was getting just under 2000 from 26" barrels. Chris at Heym shot some out of a new 24" Heym a while back and got 2220, which is way too fast. I don't know for sure, but I get the impression that they don't adjust for density variance from lot to lot.

Don't know about Norma.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Factory Federal .470 NE SP chronograph at 1,962 fps out of my 26 inch Vaughan. We are waiting for Norma ammo but not expected until Nov.

John

Hopefully Hornady will get their .470 ammo out next year. Kynoch is better ammo than Federal, but is harder to get.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
Hopefully Hornady will get their .470 ammo out next year. Kynoch is better ammo than Federal, but is harder to get.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Is Hornady planning on doing the .470NE? Or is this simply wishful thinking?

I've not chronoed the federal ammo for 470NE, but I have shot a lot of it, and I've noticed a very apparent difference in recoil between shots. That would indicate a wide spread differences in speed, and that, to me, means damn poor ammo loading! For $16 USD per round, I would think one could expect better quality control!

In the end, nothing beats well done handloads!

OK, we talking Federal Gold Box Premium or Federal Capeshok?

Norma ammo is due now here in the US.

Check the Norma site. They list their new PH line 470 load at 2100 fps compared to their Hunting line load at 2165 fps, both 500 grainers. Don't know the difference, both still current products and may use same Woodleighs but the PH cost almost twice as much. The velocity could be a typo, there's at least one other typo on the Norma site.

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
OK, we talking Federal Gold Box Premium or Federal Capeshok?

I'm talking Gold box Federal premium with 500 gr TB solids

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
Is Hornady planning on doing the .470NE? Or is this simply wishful thinking?

You didn't believe the .400 either, did ya?
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Mac, is the Gold box still in the Federal product line? I noticed a couple boxes locally at a correspondingly older low price and was going to buy it, but not now, after yours and John Hipwell's experience.

I wish I knew WTF was up with this PH line from Norma. Just went back there and looked some more. I know it's meant to be optimum loads, usually meaning heavy for caliber at moderate velocities. But look that the 470, as I mentioned, and the Lott & 450 Rigby! 500 grains at 2100 fps?! Doesn't make sense. Doctari goes on and on about reaching that magical 2150 fps and these loads bail on it. The 458WM can be the real deal IF you achieve 2150 w/500grns. I don't get it. Look at the 500NE too, 2100 fps, and this after Doctari chrono'd old Kynoch 500NE and found it to be not 2150 but 2000 fps.

If the Norma 470NE data is true then I'll order the Hunting line 470 with Woodleigh 500 solids and RNs for $200 per 20 round box vs $163 per 10 pack for the PH. I want the 2165 fps out of the 470 not the 2100. Hey, then it's the equal of the old 500NE.

McBride's here, the big family owned gun store, ordered 450/400 for the shelf and they do not have, never have had nor do they have on order a 450/400 rifle. They must have the faith!

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
The Federal is all over the place. Spoke to a guy not long ago that was getting just under 2000 from 26" barrels. Chris at Heym shot some out of a new 24" Heym a while back and got 2220, which is way too fast. I don't know for sure, but I get the impression that they don't adjust for density variance from lot to lot.

Don't know about Norma.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Maybe the fast stuff was the Capeshok?

quote:

and this after Doctari chrono'd old Kynoch 500NE and found it to be not 2150 but 2000 fps.

I believe the original .500 NE velocities were 2150 fps. But these were obtained from a 30 in. barrel. That would translate to roughly 2050 fps. from a 24 in. barrel. I chrono'd a batch .500 NE rounds from Superior Ammo a few years ago and they were right at 2050 fps. I currently load my .500 NE right at 2100 fps. BTW I have some really old (60-70 years) Kynoch stuff in boxes and tropical tins. I might just try running a few rounds through the chroney.

Geronimo

Those gun houses that developed these smokeless loads and Kynoch who loaded the ammo stated that their advertised velocities were obtained from 30" barrels?? Is this in print somewhere?

Just look at the Kynamco web site which is pretty close to an accurate picture of barrel lenghts originally used for the nominal velocities. You will be suprised at the "blue sky" betweennominal velocities and those actually acheived in Nitro rifle. The 458wm had less deviation.

JPK

That's fecking crazy! They've never been "downloaded", the test barrels are out of this world.

I wasn't under the impression that most cordite proofed double rifles made had 28" barrels. I knew that some, many, did. I thought the majority made had 26" barrels.

Our standard of 24"-26" test barrels combined that with the fact that here we used high velocity chamberings, almost to exclude moderately fast loads, shooting them out of our 21" barrels doesn't lessen performance so much on our old favorite deer and elk cartridges.

I must say, this sheds new light on the origins of these cartridges. You'd think that those who've written on the subject, like Robertson, would be aware of this. It doesn't suprise me that I'm in the dark but he and others should know better. Thx Geronimo and JPK.

See now, the Kynnoch data for the 470 is based on not a 30" but 31" barrel but the 500 is based on a 28". I don't get it. Gonna go read some more.

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
Those gun houses that developed these smokeless loads and Kynoch who loaded the ammo stated that their advertised velocities were obtained from 30" barrels?? Is this in print somewhere?

You've gotta be kidding, right? That information has been readily available for 100+ years.

Excepting the .450/.400s and the .470, the ballistics of all of the over .40 British Nitro Expresses were standardized in 28" barrels. Ballistics for the .450/.400 3" NE are taken from 30" barrels and the 3 1/4" from 26" barrels. The .470 Nitro Express was standardized in 31" barrels.

The standard ballistics for the .470 are 75 grains Cordite, 500 grain bullet for 2,125 fps from a 31" barrel for 14 tons BaseCUP. That standard never changed, and Kynoch was the only manufacturer in the world loading that cartridge from 1919 to 1972. None of it ever did 2,100 fps from a sporting rifle barrel. From 24" barrels, 2,040 fps or so - spot on what it's supposed to be from a barrel of that length - and that's the standard that it made it's legend with. Dangerous game and cardboard boxes have have gotten 10 times tougher over all those years - we all know that a .470 won't shoot through both sides of a cardboard box at that speed today.

And no, there was no blue sky in Kynoch's velocities. I've used old Kynoch for a baseline whenever possible when working up loads for doubles for years and have chronographed a lot of it. I've almost always found it spot on - as adjusted for barrel length. You just can't expect the same velocity from 24" as from 31".

From your above posts, you need to get a .500.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
You'd think that those who've written on the subject, like Robertson, would be aware of this. It doesn't suprise me that I'm in the dark but he and others should know better.

Now you've got the picture. Yes, they should know better, and it's amazing how many don't have a clue.

BTW, Kynoch's data posted there is original Kynoch data. The original Kynoch company stopped mass production in 1973, and finally closed in 1978. David Little's team leased the name from Eley and opened the new company. They have the old Kynoch records, pressure guns, etc., and David has shot up a large quantity of original Cordite ammo in developing their current stuff.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

I think federal got fat and sloppy by being the only game in town for a long time. The old "IBM" mentality - 25 years ago, I actually had IBM tell me they did not negotiate any terms in their contracts, because they were IBM!

Norma and Hornady are definitely going to cut into their action on the 470, and maybe it will wake them the hell up.

It would be interesting to see the pressure curve of cordite loads compared to what is now available. Is all that stuff now in a collector's class or is any of it "reasonably" available?

Mike:

I think you'd be surprised. Kynoch actually announced that they were shutting down in 1962. However, as the only remaining metallic sporting rifle cartridge manufacturer in the UK, they also realized the problem that was going to create. As a result, they continued runs of the popular British calibers - large runs - for another 10 years with the idea of "stocking up" the market. Bricks from the last runs are still surprisingly easy to find. The boxes are date coded so you don't have to guess how old it is.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Bart:

To give you an idea...

A good friend up your way picked up a nice .500/.465 from the '20s a while back. He got two bricks of 1966 vintage Cordite ammo with the gun. The .500/.465 is very similar to the .470. Same Cordite charge, but a 480 grain bullet instead of 500. Standard vel is 2150 fps in a 28" barrel. His gun has 26" barrels, so I expected 2100 fps. The Cordite ammo ran dead on 2100 fps. We worked up with RL 15 and 480 Woodleighs to 2100 fps and got dead solid perfect regulation. True 2150 fps was too fast, and the barrels crossed fired. His 2100 fps ammo sure killed his 60 lb bull elephant dead.

So, even if Norma's new ammo actually does 2165, it just depends on what the rifle you get was regulated with. It may well not regulate that fast. One of the early batches of Federal .470 I shot ran 2150, but cross fired badly in the rifle I shot it in. It isn't something to worry about. Original performance standard is plenty good enough.
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

my Krieghoff .500NE 3" w/570gr softs and solids in boxes from Kynoch, the yellow with red boxes; and the beige boxes marked WR inside a pentagram from the EU circa 1997(?) was very consistent at 2140 for the Kynoch, and 2120 or so for the WR. Softs and solids all in the 8-10fps spread for each brand, and shot into one 2" 4-shot group at 50 yds.

Interesting that the brits did the same testing set up as the US ammo companies...tremendous long barrels to make "speed". With $100 chronographs in every home, those days are loooong gone!

Rich
DRSS

Well yes, 400 I should've gotten a 500. But the gun I ordered, configured my way but not any custom fit mind you, is a 470. I can still snag a 500 but it isn't going to be quite as fancy. No engraved moustache along the edges of the water table up the side of the breech (is this a fence?) and no engraved steel grip cap. Otherwise the same gun for wood, sights, kickers. I'd actually save a cool grand if you can believe that's what these 2 aesthetic features cost.

I can't tell you how much hand wringing I did before I settled on the 470 for all the usual reasons, ammo cost/supply, recoil/control on follow etc. An experienced well known East African PWH told me when I asked that it didn't make a wit of difference between using a 450/470/475 and the 500, they all died the same way. He used a 475 #2, his dad used a 470 and I think his brother did too. That 475 packs a little extra punch it seems. I'm seeing him today. I'm going to print some of this Kynoch data and discuss it some more with him.

In a conversation with MS he stated that the 500 seemed a better killer, really whacked 'em. Of course we all know where Hunter stood on this and also Sten Cedergren.

I certainly can live with data from a 28" bbl I just don't get the 31" for the 470. Adding to that I really don't get that the 500 was tested out of 28" bbl. The cases are nearly identical, right, with the mouth just opened up for the .510 bullet? How they can push a 570 grn 500 like that and then lay down on the 470 work still doesn't make sense to me. Seems they were standing on some proven BP stats whilst still making a sweet shooter.

Showbart, IMO, there will be no noticable difference in killing power from a 470NE between the actual 2000fps, and the advertized 2150fps from the factory! most doubles today are fitted with 24" barrels, some with 26", but most are regulated with the same ammo that gave 2150 from a 30" test barrel. This means the rifle regulates at the speed it generates with wht ever length barrels are fitted. SO!, what needs to happen, is to not try for the velocity that was quoted from the 30" test barrel, but, as Mark says, back down to the speed that is proper for the length barres you are useing.

The only place this velocity range makes any real difference is in the regulation, because the heavy bullets from the .400 up, bullets size will penetrate well, and since they have been killing things for years, without the shooter knowing the real velocity, I wouldn't worry, as long as the rifle regulates!

Where I think your friend is wrong is, the larger diameter bullets DO kill better, even at lower speeds, as long as they are going fast enough to get the penetration needed to reach the vitals! My advice is get your 470NE to regulate well, and go kill a Buffalo, and don't worry about how fast the bullet is traveling! I assure you the buffalo doesn't care what the numbers are!

The problem with the Federal is not the speed, but the SPEEDS. They are not consistant, and that screws with regulation!

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
The Federal is all over the place. Spoke to a guy not long ago that was getting just under 2000 from 26" barrels. Chris at Heym shot some out of a new 24" Heym a while back and got 2220, which is way too fast. I don't know for sure, but I get the impression that they don't adjust for density variance from lot to lot.

Don't know about Norma.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Gonna narrow it down; anyone chrono Federal 470 Capeshok? Federal site notes 24" test barrel! 2220 out of Chris' Heym is too fast, OK. But what if the gun is regulated on the Capeshok? Strong modern gun. Actually that's what the Merkel 470 is regulated on, the 500 I think on Kynoch. GSI bought up alot of the 500 the US Kynoch distributor had. He sounded very non commital on bringing in more but said there would be some ordered by the time of SCI.

Bart, I was being facetious about the .500. You're obsessing about how many fairies can dance on the head of a pin.

There was never anything wrong with the performance of the .470 to begin with. Even John Taylor liked it. Although he nitpicked about the shape of the nickel solid, and liked that of the .465 better, he admitted that it really didn't matter. Keep in mind that Taylor didn't have the steel jacketed solids or bonded core controlled expansion softs that we do. Neither were offered for the flanged nitros until after his hunting was over.

If you want more power, get a .500. If you're addicted to velocity, stick with bolt rifles.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Well, nonetheless I did go back and forthover the 470 and 500 and in hindsight if I'd chosen the 500 I don't think I would've second guessed it. When I chose the 470 I wasn't completely aware of all this load data and variation etc..
The 500 IS a better killer and back to this thread whatever load you buy is apparently all the same performance, that being of the original.

Mac, my friend did say yesterday that yes the 500 performed a little better but added do you really need that extra bit, a client with a PH as backup. He actually disliked his dad's 470 because it had 28" bbls but that was the only reason.

Well I must have the most powerful double rifle in the 450/475 group...

My 450 No2 has 28"barrels.

Maybe that is why both of my PH's have called it... THE HAMMER OF THOR.

Not as powerful as the 475 #2's. But all have huge cases! If I could do it over and it were available I'd choose 475 #2 Jeff or 450 NE #2 in this class.

I chronographed the Federal "gold box" ammo in 470 NE with Woodleigh RNSP and TBSH Solids back in 2002.

That ammo was erratic on the chronograph: 1800 to 2050 fps

It helped to uniform the loads by settling the powder into the base of the cases by pointing the loaded gun muzzles at the sky and tapping the butt before carefully lowering the rifle into firing position.

The loose load of RL-15 with all that air space and the F-216 special primer is not a good idea.

RL-15 and filler of Dacron, or better yet, a full case of H4831, is the way to go, with the F215/GM215M primers.

Are the Federal 470 NE loads still loose powder and F216?

quote:

Are the Federal 470 NE loads still loose powder and F216?

I as far as I can tell they still are. Whenever I pick up rounds in the gun shop and shake them, I hear loose powder. Besides, I've noticed that my reloads shoot more accurately(RL 15+Kynoch foam wads).

Geronimo

In sifting thru Norma site, they state that their 470 load workup is based on original Kynoch specs with the same about of "time in barrel". I have an email out to them asking test barrel lenghts for their 2 470 loads. As i said Federal notes a 24" test barrel for 470 and all rifle loads for that matter. I'm going to try to confirm with them too.

And again, Merkel 470's are regulated on the Federal Cape Shok and what's heard from them and everyone who owns a Merkel 470 is how well they shoot and likely with mostly Federal. Accurate, consistent and guns don't show stress.

Showbart, There is nothing wrong with a Merkel 140-2, 470NE Safari double rifle! The rifle is fine, the ammo is the problem. it is posible to pull the bullets from the Federal factory ammo, and dump the powder, and weigh each charge,to get them all the same, then re-load the cases, with a tuft of Polyester fiberfill, to hold the powder against the primer, and get consistant velocity from it!

My question is, why doesn't the factory do that, considering the price they charge for the ammo, the cost to improve would be minimal? I still have about 80 rounds of Federal Premium gold box, that I'm going to do just that with! I may even substitute North Fork CPS, or FPS bullets as well!

Mac, the Merkel's are rock solid, I don't know how that was misunderstood. I was only saying that if in fact some/all of the Cape Shok is hot/erratic the Merkel's haven't showed it, haven't missed a beat. Given the fact that the guns bound for the US are regulated on it and that so many owners shoot/hunt with it and that the guns, and yes the ammo, seem to be doing very well tells me that the Cape Shok is fine.

Just went and scanned this thread and will again but have not seen concrete feedback that the Cape Shok is misbehaving. Just because there is some movement of powder in the case doesn't mean it's going to perform erratically, does it? You'd think that if the Cape Shok were messing up that regulation would be, well, irregular and those guns would continue to give their owners problems. Most of what I hear, here and elswhere is that the Merkel 470's are tackdrivers. That wouldn't be the case if the Cape Shok was erratic, would it?

I know I'm repaeting myself alot but hey, this is a learning curve, and the more I learn about the flat nosed meplats and in lighter weights, the Cape Shok 470 TBSS likely kils exactly as well as a RN 500!

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

Originally posted by 400 Nitro Express:
Hopefully Hornady will get their .470 ammo out next year. Kynoch is better ammo than Federal, but is harder to get.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Is Hornady planning on doing the .470NE? Or is this simply wishful thinking?

This has been mentioned to higher ups at H that they should make 470 NE brass and .475 rifle bullets. I don't THINK it feel on deaf ears...

On 470 NE ballastics, my 470 AR (yeah yeah B.A.T) can do 2100 basically on charcoal!! (lol).. no, honestly, it's a fireforming load to get there.. and 2500 with 500gr bullets is easy

Mark
So, if one had a vintage 450 N2, and 26" barrels, what velocity would one reasonably see over a chrono? 2050?

I agree with MacD37's recommendation on how to fix the Federal loads.

My erratic Federal performance was indeed with a Merkel 470 NE. I guess the factory regulates the rifles with their own handloads using the TBSH bullet and proper velocity. More uniform ammo at the Merkel factory must surely be required to regulate, than what comes from the Federal Shaker loads.

Time for me to post a favorite handload target in the Merkel 470 NE Plain Jane 140A or 140-2.0 (Again! Those tired of seeing it should avert their eyes now.):



1 Right
2 Left
3 Right
4 Left

Simple. The only trick here is that 2 of the shots went into one widened hole. Can you , tomo, figure it out?

Jeffeosso, are you talking about a bolt gun?

Ron,was your erratic Federal ammo Gold box or Cape Shok?

450#2 Kynoch specs are 2175 w/ 28" test bbl.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I chronographed the Federal "gold box" ammo in 470 NE with Woodleigh RNSP and TBSH Solids back in 2002.

That ammo was erratic on the chronograph: 1800 to 2050 fps

See above. That would be Federal Premium Safari ammo in the gold box, right?

Geronomo says the Cape Shock still rattles shockingly.

I get best accuracy with H4831 or H4831SC 109 to 110 grains, depending on which 500-grain bullet, and no filler.

The old original Jack carter TBSH just happened to be the most accurate bullet in my Merkel. Must be because that is the bullet that the factory broke it in with. Woodleigh RNSP's and GSC FN's are not significantly different in accuracy or POI versus the TBSH. The only difference might be my compensating errors.