quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I find it hard to believe that the European factories would all be dependent on getting pre-loaded ammo from Federal to regulate with.

I suggest they are loading their own to supposed Federal specs and using the specified bullets of the Federal loads they claim to be regulating for.

That is certainly logical, but it's not the case. Now, you may find a "boutique" maker in Europe that's loading their own for a particular client, but having been in both the HEYM and Merkel facilities, I can tell you that they have stockpiles of factory ammunition that they are using.

Just last week I saw probably 40-boxes of 470 on the shelves in the ammo room. There were Federal softs & solids, Wolfgang Romey, Kynoch, and even some A-square for example.

In Germany you can't own a firearm unless you have a hunting license. You can't reload ammunition unless you have a hunting license and a "reloading" license. That's not to say that people don't go through the trouble to get the licenses, but it's not as easy for them load ammo as it is for us. For example, a huting licence would run you about 3K Euro or $4,200 US.

The factories' objective is to regulate a rifle with ammunition that is accessible by the end user. To load their own for rifles that are intended for distribution abroad would be counter productive, as no one could get the same ammo.

It's been confirmed that Norma does not use any filler.

I wonder if Norma is using their MRP or MRP2. They do publish loads for the 470 using at least the MRP2 in their reloading manual. It is a slow powder along the lines of RL25 and would certainly fill up the case.

So for the reloader what's the best powder(s) and primers to use for 470NE?

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
I wonder if Norma is using their MRP or MRP2. They do publish loads for the 470 using at least the MRP2 in their reloading manual. It is a slow powder along the lines of RL25 and would certainly fill up the case.

I am rather sure that they use the same loads as in their reloading manual. I don't have any clever/or stupid answer for why they claim haveing different velocity from the "standard" .470 and the African PH .470
i will check that up.

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
Husky, is the PH line in stores and for sale in Europe?

Yes, in some places


But as I have heard, they under estimated the market. sold out the first year batch in 3 months...

(I will check the velocity from these blokes as soon as possible)

It would take some digging to see if I recorded the horrible results with the Federal 470NE Tilt-Test.

There will be no duplicating the Federal Tilt-Test by me, as I am now strictly a shooter of my handloaded 470 NE by choice. The Federal loads have been shot up and no more will be bought. I got a big load of excellent new-unprimed BeLL brass from an estate sale. My widow will probably be selling some of it as-new also, and the rest only once-fired.

If the Norma loads are with slower powders, full case, and no filler, then they will be far superior to the Federal stuff.

Can anyone share their 470 reloading data? Or which guide is the best source to work up loads?

The bulkier Norma powder sounds good. Is it and a Norma reloading book readily available here. (Soon as I finish here I'm going to go look but I'll ask)

How about Jamison brass, good? Norma's almost 3x's higher. Or is it the Bell that's best and are they still around. Which primer? Dies it's just Redding and RCBS, yes? Is that RCBS 50 BMG press the way to go?

So much of what I was looking for here had to do with regulation. Once I know that then I'll reload.

Hello to all of you and bloody sorry for my absense iv'e been quitebusy .Federals' prices are getting up there,when you can handload cheaper while finding a load/bullet combo that your rifle shoots acuratly in the process. I am not knocking Federal for i think they do the best job they can with the bean counters pulling their strings, and all that,but you can do better than they can. Just my opinion.

Yes I'm preparing to order components.

What's the dif between RCBS and Redding 470 die sets? Maybe the Redding doesn't have a decapper built in?

About two hundred dollars

quote:

Originally posted by NFMike:
About two hundred dollars

Thanks for nothing

Redding makes a very good die set and unless they changed, it will include a de-capper/resizer and this is where you get longevity from your cases. Set it to just nick the shoulder and try it in your rifle to see if it goes home without any restriction of any kind. We dont want you carying hammers around now do we. Google reloading the .470 N.E. and a wealth of information shall be yours. You can shoot cast bullets from your .470 using .475 Linebaugh bullets and i belive their are some others who make heavier .475 bullets for this purpose. I cant tell you how many i have reloaded and fired just to keep the edge going. I'll look around when i get back and post some cast bullet loads if would like that. The worst thing we can do is hunt with a rifle we dont shoot enough and isn't a extension of our person. Doubles are not for the romantic, they are for the killers of game that choose to hunt with the a soft in the right and a solid in the left.. Charlie

Thx, yeah the price difference doesn't make sense, yet if ever.

Starting with full house loads tho so 2100-2150 range. Any chrono'd data is much appreciated.

Recently chronoed 15 shots of federal 470. I actually had little deviation with my session (merkel). The average was 2,090, the low was 2,038, and the high 2125. At least the deviation was low enough not to effect its regulation. I understand this isn't much of a sample size, but it doesn't disconcert me enough to worry about accuracy etc. while shooting hogs. However, when I head over to Africa, I'll either be going with hornady factory loads, or some that I've cooked up on my own (assuming I have time away from work, college football, dove hunting, etc.).

Showbart,
I have the RCBS dies I bought a while ago for about $200. I do not know what they charge now.

I could easily find Redding reloading dies for 470 NE listed for $111.00 at
www.redding-reloading.com
item # 80481
This is a 2-die full length (FL) set that is sufficient for the job:
1) a full length resizer die that decaps and neck-expands and
2) a seating die that crimps

My RCBS set is the same 2-die setup. Don't forget to get the proper shell holder and a trimmer pilot if you don't alredy have them.

Brass: Commonly Norma, Jamison, Federal. BeLL (older), BELL (newer), or "MAST" brass is no longer made, but lives on in a way, as Jamison brass, since he bought their machinery.

I have BeLL, Norma, and Federal (once-fired) brass, and it is all fine. Case capacities may be slightly different (a few grains of water) but this is adjusted for by working up a load from low to high velocity and stopping where your rifle is shooting right.

Primer:
Use F-215 or GM215M primer. The only difference is the pay scale of the inspectors watching the primers go by on the assembly line.

Powders:

1) RL-15 ranging from 85 grains to 90 grains usually contains a working load when you use 5 grains of Dacron filler packed between the bullet and the powder to fill the case. I prefer the fiber fluff over the foam wads, which I have also tried.

0r

2) H4831/H4831SC ranging from 105 to 110 grains usually, maybe a grain or 2 more with some bullet/brass/rifle combos.

I have tried both and settled on the H4831.

Just to help Tomo577 understand my bullet hole numbering and lettering system (which leaves no doubt of the temporal sequence of the holes nor their spatial origin, R or L "handedness") I post the previous target that showed my barrels almost parallel to infinity, just a little bit converged past parallel. Note the Extreme Spread (ES) of the velocities of this H4831 load is just 15 fps for the four shots:




And a second target with a faster load that has crossed, too fast:



I think my Merkel shoots "parallel-to-infinity"
around 2125 fps and it is crossed somewhere around 2150 fps, with the 23.6" barrels (600mm), with the muzzle diameters being .706" identically, BTW.

quote:

Originally posted by maddenwh:
Recently chronoed 15 shots of federal 470. I actually had little deviation with my session (merkel). The average was 2,090, the low was 2,038, and the high 2125. At least the deviation was low enough not to effect its regulation. I understand this isn't much of a sample size, but it doesn't disconcert me enough to worry about accuracy etc. while shooting hogs. However, when I head over to Africa, I'll either be going with hornady factory loads, or some that I've cooked up on my own (assuming I have time away from work, college football, dove hunting, etc.).

Madden, that's a low spread for sure. I'd be very happy with the sample. Do that at the different temps we get here, especially when it drops like mad, shoot once or twice that day.

Ron, that's outstanding. Very helpful, thank you very much.
Dsvid

Showbart,
Welcome.
Now you know everything you need to make ammo better than any factory load.
You just need to get the components and assemble them.
Start low and chronograph so there are no surprises, as you watch your groups go from high and wide, right and left groups, to a converged pattern in the bullseye.

109 grains of H4831 +/- 1 grain, depending on the bullet, is my load for use in BeLL brass.

This load is known as "The George Hoffman Memorial Load" here at ar.com.

Yes, George Hoffman did some double rifle shooting and recommended H4831 in the 470 NE.

Showbart- It was a calm day roughly 70 degrees. I'd shoot the 470 off the bench all day if my shoulder could handle it, but after 10-15 shots off the sand bags, I've got to start shooting off hand or quit all together.

Showbart, heavy rifles will hit at different points of aim when held differently, all firearms do this , but heavys magnify this. If you want to know where your d.r. is hitting fire it standing with and you two feet suporting you. This is how all of you shots will be taken at something that can ruin you ego. The rifle is alreday regulated , you want to know where the particular load is hitting , I think we confuse regulation and the phenom. of two barrels hitting at point of aim,which changes with velocity,and bullet weight. I'm getting off the subject here so i apologoze. I think you can find some reloading data from any good reloading book, A-Square comes to mind, and i have found the velocitys are fairly acurate with low pressure heavy bullet rounds such as the N.E. family of rifle cartridges. If you have followed the data for your caliber and have found a load that prints tight,a crono. is realy not needed, range time is. charlie

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
Compelling in the sense that if the ammo consistently had problems it would be causing problems, especially during regulation, and all along the line afterwards. I'm addressing Cape Shok. I don't care what happened with Federal Gold box.

Wrong. I didn't say it was erratic (shot to shot, which is what would cause regulation problems with a particular rifle), I said it was inconsistent, and it is - lot to lot. Federal has always listed it's .470 load at 2150 from 24" barrels from 1989 on. Look at the reports on this thread. They vary from 1965 fps from 26" barrels to 2220 fps from 24". It's been like that from the beginning.

What makes you think there's a difference in that regard between Gold Box and Cape Shok? They're both non-canister grade RL 15 and F216 primers.
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by maddenwh:
Recently chronoed 15 shots of federal 470. I actually had little deviation with my session (merkel). The average was 2,090, the low was 2,038, and the high 2125. At least the deviation was low enough not to effect its regulation.

No, it isn't enough to effect regulation, but an extreme spread of 87 fps isn't very good. Is this both barrels taken together? Extreme spread with RL 15 and Dacron or Kynoch foam filler is usually single digits.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Yes 87 fps is way too much, I misread.

So Cape Shok sucks too. I've been able to redirect my gunmaker in time to have my rifle regulated on Norma, so that coupled with my reloads based on Norma specs puts the issue of all Federal ammo to bed.

So H4831 fills the case well, no filler needed?

Are the Norma powders mentioned here available in the US? Is there any benefit to them?

Also for those who load, there really is no discernable differnce between the $110 Redding dies and the $280 RCBS?

Showbart-

Just curious - what's your daily caffeine intake?

Norma powders ae indeed available in the US. And they have one of the few reloading manuals with loads for the 470 NE.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Mark
So, if one had a vintage 450 N2, and 26" barrels, what velocity would one reasonably see over a chrono? 2050?

Jeffe:

Sorry, I missed that.

.450 No. 2 is 2175 from 28", so I would expect 2125 from 26". I've never chronographed Cordite ammo in this caliber. It was one of the first that Kynoch dropped in the early '50s, so original ammo is old and very difficult to find, and expensive.
----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Gentlemen, this thread only comfirms my theory that if a man is going to shoot, and hunt with a double rifle, of any kind, he needs to set himself up for handloading the ammo!

I like to know how the best factory ammo shoots in any rifle I own, but when I get serious my hunting ammo will be very carefully handloaded ammo, with evey charge weighed, and each cartridge tried in my rifle for feeding, in a bolt rifle or properly chambering in my double in both barrels! All loaded in sized & trimmed, NEW brass! It is my opinion, that to get the best, from any double rifle,it requires custom ammo made to suit the rifle it will be used in, and factory ammo cannot do that, as well as your custom handloads! Factory ammo, even the best factory ammo, is "one size fits all" , much like the standard measurements for assembly line rifles. They fit some, and some they don't!

The only reason I have Federal factory ammo for my 470NE is, I got 5 boxes whith my Merkel when I bought it from another poster here on AR.

quote:

Originally posted by Showbart:
Yes 87 fps is way too much, I misread.

So Cape Shok sucks too. I've been able to redirect my gunmaker in time to have my rifle regulated on Norma, so that coupled with my reloads based on Norma specs puts the issue of all Federal ammo to bed.

So new and untested is better because..? Geez man, leave off counting fairies and stop worrying about it.

DR rule No. 1: When buying a DR, new or 100 years old, add $600 to the price just in case. That's what J. J. charges to re-regulate with your handload. If that cost is a flyspeck on your radar screen, you have no business messing with double rifles.
---------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Yeah, you all are right in that 83 fps deviation is not as good as it should be with federal. However, when I'm shooting off hand or off the bench at 50 yards, the rifle is still accurate enough, and it's still got the energy levels I need. And, most of the deviation was really from a couple odd balls. I guess these are the rounds you want to avoid when you really need them. Hence, as I said before, I'll be working up a better hand load before I head east.

Single digit extreme spread (ES) would certainly be good for regulation ease for a maker, even if the criterion is only for 4 shots (2R and 2L), though single-digit standard deviation (sd) for a larger number of shots should be good enough.

The H4831 loads have single-digit sd, and were more accurate in my rifle than RL-15 with filler. I think I have sd values filed away from the RL-15 + filler ...

Question: Does foam filler vs. Dacron filler produce any difference in sd with RL-15?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Question: Does foam filler vs. Dacron filler produce any difference in sd with RL-15?

Not that I've noticed.
-----------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Shot Federal .470 500grains solids last week at 2050 fps (only 3 shots so SD doesn´t mean much).

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Single digit extreme spread (ES) would certainly be good for regulation ease for a maker, even if the criterion is only for 4 shots (2R and 2L), though single-digit standard deviation (sd) for a larger number of shots should be good enough.

The H4831 loads have single-digit sd, and were more accurate in my rifle than RL-15 with filler. I think I have sd values filed away from the RL-15 + filler ...

Question: Does foam filler vs. Dacron filler produce any difference in sd with RL-15?

RIP:

Were you using the regular H4831 or the short cut stuff in your .470? Any idea of the velocity of that load in your gun?