The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Double Rifles DOUBLE TROUBLEGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| DOUBLE TROUBLE | Login/Join |
One of Us |
Pre-WWII is not generally referred to as meaning any time before 1939. The reference generally refers to a window of time representing the period shortly after WWI and prior to WWII. So we are not talking about a long period of time, essentially the 1920's and 1930's. I am not suggesting that any rifle made in that period never had a problem, I am just saying that for those that understand and study double rifles, that is generally viewed as being the "prime time" when the craft was at its peak in terms of workmanship and quality. For me, assuming price was equal, I would take the pre-WWII used double over any modern newly manufactured, even bespoke, rifle. Your mileage my vary, results may not be typical. Mike | |||
|
| one of us |
The only way of telling which are better or if any have issues is to shoot a DR on a regular basis for a few years.This is difficult to do because of recoil or owning many of them etc...If one shoots one for 20 or 30 rds how can they draw any conclusion or how valid is there opinion?Like I said,shoot just one over and over again weekly for a long time and then tell us about it. | |||
|
One of Us |
You and the entire known universe..save of course for microcephallic morons like shitaway... USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
|
| One of Us |
And I meant any newly manufactured double, Holland & Holland, Westley Richards and while I would think hard about it, Purdy. Mike | |||
|
One of Us |
And the revelation has been brought about by you having how many DR's over how many years? NONE!???  NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Sam, would you be kind enough to email me the Model and the ser. # of the rifle you mention. searcy@ccis.com or bls.doubles@gmail.com Thanks Butch | |||
|
One of Us |
I have owned five doubles so far with a sixth on the way: new Blaser, new Krieghoff, used Merkel, new VC and a couple of W. J. Jefferys. The .470 Blaser's left barrel shot about 8 to 10 inches high and to the left of the right barrel. After the factory gunsmith worked on it for three weeks, he got it down to about 5 inches. The .470 K-Gun had no issues and was very accurate. I shot it a lot. The .500 Merkel had no issues. The .450 VC I did not get a chance to shoot; it sure was nice though. The .500 WJJ had no issues, probably ironed out in the over 100 years since it left the factory. Looking forward to the next WJ Jeffery. Paul Smith SCI Life Member NRA Life Member DSC Member Life Member of the "I Can't Wait to Get Back to Africa" Club DRSS I had the privilege to fire E. Hemingway's WR .577NE, E. Keith's WR .470NE, & F. Jamieson's WJJ .500 Jeffery I strongly recommend avoidance of "The Zambezi Safari & Travel Co., Ltd." and "Pisces Sportfishing-Cabo San Lucas" "A failed policy of national defense is its own punishment" Otto von Bismarck | |||
|
| One of Us |
Butch, I no longer own that gun but I will see if I can find the serial number for you. I had this gun back around 2003. Sam | |||
|
| One of Us |
As far as pre WWII English doubles I agree that they are really well made guns. I have one Army Navy 450-400 that I love. I have several earlier BPE guns that the workmanship is fantastic. MJines said if cost were about the same he would pick a Pre WWII gun. Well Duh! Finding a good pre WWII double in a larger nitro caliber isn't all that easy and certainly they are not is the same price range as new modern made guns. I searched for years trying to find a reasonably priced big bore English nitro gun but everyone that I found had been buggered with or was in bad mechanical shape. Either off face or bad bores. I almost bought an English 577 recently but after having gun checked out it turned out to have been reproofed and was originally a BPE gun. I did not want a reproofed gun. Oh and the original proofs had been covered up to try and fool someone. Anyway I think most modern double makers are doing a fair job but they are letting too many get buy that aren't right. I want to thank those people that have emailed and sent PMs about their problems even if they wish not to post them. It has been very interesting to hear the stories of woes! So I'm not the only unlucky one! Sam | |||
|
| One of Us |
Less "duh" than you might think. I am sure there are those that given the choice between a new WR double and a pre-WWII used WR double, would take the former price being equal. Everyday people buy new Heyms when they could buy a used English double for roughly the same price. Mike | |||
|
| One of Us |
Mike, Find me a WR pre WWII 577 for under $25000 that is in perfect working order. HA HA Sam | |||
|
One of Us |
I believe that double rifles made pre-war were generally of a better quality than those made today too. One very good reason is that the logistics of returning a gun for repair would have been prohibitively expensive and time consuming. The gun HAD to be right before it left the factory. Often, the client's life really did depend on it! Also, if I were buying a bespoke H&H, I would be insuring that it was correct at the shooting ground before taking delivery. | |||
|
| One of Us |
My experience is only with pre-war English doubles. I have also found that the hammer rifles to be more accurate than hammer-less having owned about 6 of each. Just my limited experience. But I do love those hammer rifles. Dutch | |||
|
| One of Us |
Interesting take on pre war vs current production re English doubles. I am visiting the WR factory in BIrmingham next month to discuss a drop lock in 500 or 577. I will spend a full day on site and look through the factory production facility and observe the artisans in action. I have done the same in ITaly several years ago when I was looking at some fine game guns. Piotti factory was a standout! A small room under the main house with 4 brothers producing wonderful doubles the old way,, mostly by hand. Total annual production I think Emmanuel said was well short of 100 guns. I do recall him saying they did supply some actions to H&H in London. I beleive that the WR produces most parts for there doubles "in house" which is what attracts me to them, as well as the unique drop lock action, simply gorgeous!, If I do go ahead, I would be at the factory to observe regulation / finish etc before accepting final delivery. Build time is approx 2 years depending one engraving etc. Cheers Nick | |||
|
| One of Us |
Go for it Nick! That sounds like the way to go about it. | |||
|
One of Us |
What was the expected build time and yearly production rate of the respected and desirable pre-WWII big bore doubles? Ours is a society demanding instant gratification. I wonder if the effort to meet that demand is a contributor if not cause of some of the issues Sam and others have experienced. That is not an excuse because as Sam stated - for this kind of money it should be perfect. Every time. And if production rates and build time are similar now as then, the concept holds no water whatsoever. NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
|
| One of Us |
"Ours is a society demanding instant gratification. I wonder if the effort to meet that demand is a contributor if not cause of some of the issues Sam and others have experienced." Well, in the case of Sabatti, yes it was because they cut corners to satisfy Cabelas demands instead of standing up to them. And by the looks of it, Cabelas are going to drop Sabatti's so where does that leave Sabatti now - or a new Distributor ? In regards to the other makes, maybe. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
|
One of Us |
Yes- some of the early guns doubled - were brought back for service and a trigger "fix" applied DuggaBoye-O NRA-Life Whittington-Life TSRA-Life DRSS DSC HSC SCI | |||
|
One of Us |
But surely it was regulated. . | |||
|
One of Us |
Really sam!  BTW the only double that you had no problems with is still wanting to come to me! But you wont let her go! Yeh - your one & only British DR! May be you should just get yourself a Wesley Richards! "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
|
| One of Us |
Nakihunter, Yep I don't think I'm going to buy another. I have two favorites now and the rest are collecting dust. Including your gun. May part with it yet. That isn't the only British double I have either. You just couldn't see past the one in your hands. Sam | |||
|
| One of Us |
Yes, it was wonderfully well regulated. I fired two CEB #13s and two Woodleigh 500 softs from right and left barrels. I covered the four holes completely with a quarter!!! 465H&H | |||
|
| one of us |
Krieger says barrels today are made better than ever.There is certainly the potential today to make rifles better than ever-people could also be buying doubles today more than ever! Could we be living in the golden age and not know it? | |||
|
| One of Us |
Shootaway It doesn't matter if you have two tackholer barrels (assuming they were installed on a bolt gun). When put together on a double rifle, it only matters how the Double rifle was regulated. And big bore doubles are pretty forgiving anyway, so many other variations in the shooting off them anyway. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
|
| One of Us |
Unless you get the crowd from Sesame Street and lots of pictures with colors, good luck explaining regulation to shitforbrains. He needs instructions on how to lay sod for chrissakes.. (HINT: Green side up) USN (ret) DRSS Verney-Carron 450NE Cogswell & Harrison 375 Fl NE Sabatti Big Five 375 FL Magnum NE DSC Life Member NRA Life Member | |||
|
| One of Us |
Sam Aaahh! You are going to part with now! My heart is jumping with joy! Oh .. BTW I was referring to nitros only. Of course I remember your BPEs. Are you joining me next Sept in the Omay? I am sending you an email.
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
|
| One of Us |
Nakihunter, We'll see! Sam | |||
|
One of Us |
This thread is enough to make a guy "swear off" doubles before he's ever had one!!!  D/R Hunter Correct bullet placement, combined with the required depth of bullet penetration, results in an anchored animal... | |||
|
One of Us |
 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” ― Rudyard Kipling | |||
|
| one of us |
D R Hunter, did you see my post? PS. My guns are a K gun in 500/416, a Blaser S2 in 500NE and a M K Owen in 450NE. All have been maligned on this forum for various reasons!!! However, they do shoot! Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
|
| One of Us |
''Only accurate double rifles are interesting '' | |||
|
One of Us |
No more than women! Both are finicky, temperamental, and often come with a few flaws. But in the end, they are vastly superior to the alternative!  | |||
|
| One of Us |
I have a few Pedersoli Kodiaks that shoot well enough and thats a good thing because the barrels are supposedly are brazed instead of soldered. Well at least they wont fall apart. Life Is For Service DRSS | |||
|
One of Us |
I own two Heym doubles today and I have two more being built as I type. Touch wood, I have not had a single issue with either rifle. To that end, I recently returned from a wonderful safari in Zimbabwe with PH Thierry Labat and took 20 out of 25 animals using my Heym 450/400 with iron sights (scoped double rifles make me shudder). The 577 currently in production will get exercised to the fullest extent in Australia during July 2014! Sorry hear about the issues that others have experienced. At the price point being paid it would seem that better QC would be applied. Safari James USMC DRSS | |||
|
One of Us |
Safari James: Just how old are you?  Eventually your eyes will welcome a scoped double rifle or an RMR! | |||
|
One of Us |
What UEG said!  The young can be so-o-o condescending.   Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
|
One of Us |
Now please everyone don't kill the messenger but in the instances where you had trouble with barrel separation, could it have been the monometal bullets? Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
|
| One of Us |
Dave, Not sure, one of the guns I never fired even a solid of anykind out of and the other had something like 1000 rounds thru it of all types. With all the tests I think heat and poor solder has more to do with it than the bullet. Sam | |||
|
| One of Us |
In the early 90's I had a Heym 470 and tried to work up loads using the old "X" bullet. After a few shots, silver solder leaked into the breech and the rib needed to be re soldered. I was impressed it might br the bullet and stopped using the "x" bullet. Traded this double for a H&H (plus a little green). | |||
|
| One of Us |
Dave, I won't kill you but I will state that the barrels didn't come apart, a rib popped loose, that's not apart. And not in 37 years has a monometal bullet caused a problem. | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 3 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia
