quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
I know I'm probably going to upset some people with this thread but I've had my bate of it. First thing I want to say is that every double I've had problems with the dealer that sold them to me did everything they could to make it right. That is except Cabelas.

OK lets see where to start. I have purchased quite a few doubles new from dealers both factory specs and custom made for me. Just about every manufacturer that I have purchased has had problems. Some issues were small and some were large. Some were cosmetic and some were down right dangerous.

Here are some of the issues I've had.

Searcy 470 I bought from an individual had barrels fall apart after 8 shots. Called Butch and he took gun back fixed it and sent it back to me at no cost. 8 shots later barrels came apart again, sent it back and Butch fixed it right this time and gun is still shooting well. Again at no cost to me. That's customer service.

Verney Carron 577 had triggers lock up after first two shots. Dealer offered to send to gunsmith but I didn't have time to wait so I disassembled the gun and fixed it. The same gun later started spewing rust and salts out between the ribs. Dealer sent it back to factory for repair and 8 months later I got gun back and was unhappy with to results so I had them make me a new gun. Took 8 months to get that one.

Sabatti 500 shot really well and I was very pleased with it. Bragged on it and shot it over 1000 times them the ribs separated in several places. Poor solder or glue joints, that's right looked more like glue than solder.

Sam

Now please everyone don't kill the messenger but in the instances where you had trouble with barrel separation, could it have been the monometal bullets?

Dave,

You're still perpetuating these old wives tales after seeing the evidence Sam and Michael put up showing the Woodleigh FMJ and both Hornady bullets far exceeding the barrel strains than the current bore ridding monos? Remember, the Woodleigh FMJ is only "like" the old Kynoch in appearance alone. Not in construction!!

C'mon Man!

I have had 3 DR's. The first kicked so hard I could not shoot it. Yes, I am a pussy. The second was a Merkel. I pulled the trigger 4 times. It shot 8 times. Next was a VC 500 NE. The chambers were not deep enough and there was some ammo problems. I estimate I have shot it 800 times. Works fine now.

Speaking of Monometal bullets, has anyone tried the Hornady GMX bullets in a double rifle?

There were a few issues that spooked me a bit when planning to buy my first double, the main one was regulation. The rest were mostly in my head, as to spending the money. I picked up a K-gun, and it was regulated with the wrong load from the factory, and they shipped sans the two sets of rings I'd ordered with it. But, the vendor caught all that before I got it. At the moment, with a bit over 100rds thru it, and three different bullets, I am satisfied that it is doing what I paid for it to do. And it has actually been very accurate. The factory rounds were slow in it, and the reloads have been taking a lot of powder to get close to the speed in it. Everything I have shot out of it will fit in a 3" circle at 100yds from a standing offhand rest.
I sure understand Sam's point, and agree with it. I'd be some unhappy with mechanical/workmanship problems on this gun, of any type, for the kind of loot I put into it.
Those kind of issues should not occur on a new gun at this price level.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Searcy 470 I bought from an individual had barrels fall apart after 8 shots. Called Butch and he took gun back fixed it and sent it back to me at no cost.
8 shots later barrels came apart again, sent it back and Butch fixed it right this time and gun is still shooting well. Again at no cost to me. That's customer service.

Did Searcy explain the problem/what he was doing wrong,.. for his barrels to repeatedly come apart?

Inhouse customer service no matter how good, will not help a person should ones barrels happen to come apart
while hunting in Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I have had 3 DR's. The first kicked so hard I could not shoot it. Yes, I am a pussy. The second was a Merkel. I pulled the trigger 4 times. It shot 8 times. Next was a VC 500 NE. The chambers were not deep enough and there was some ammo problems. I estimate I have shot it 800 times. Works fine now.

Larry I'm curious! On the Merkel, were you, by any chance, pulling the back trigger first?

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Mac:

It has been a while but I don't think so. It even doubled with snap caps as I recall .

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Mac:

It has been a while but I don't think so. It even doubled with snap caps as I recall .

That does sound like a problem, for sure!

I've owned several double rifles over the last 55 years, since I bought my first in 1958. All I have owned never doubled unless I accidently strummed the back trigger when firing the right trigger first. It didn't take me long to stop doing that!

I have a 470NE Merkel safari mod 140-2 and have had three people get a double discharge when pulling the BACK trigger first! I've never doubled that rifle while shooting a couple hundred full house loads in it. I normally pull the front trigger first, but have many times pull the back trigger first because I wanted a solid, and I usually carry a soft in the right barrel, and a solid in the left barrel when hunting.

The mod 140-2 safari doubles have an inertia operated tumbler block on the left tumbler. However the three guys getting double discharges got it firing the back trigger first, causing the right barrel to fire. I find this strange because it has never happens to me while firing the back trigger first.

..........Things that make you go "HUH?"

In retrospect, I suspect that rifle had been returned previously for the same issue. When I told them what was happening , they took it back no questions asked. The fact that they automatically accepted this made me wonder.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
In retrospect, I suspect that rifle had been returned previously for the same issue. When I told them what was happening , they took it back no questions asked. The fact that they automatically accepted this made me wonder.

You are probably right there! Someone had most likely buggered it before you got it!

I have another Merkel that I have shot several hundred rounds through, and never doubled it except the first time I fired it, and was not expecting the amount of recoil it produced and strummed the back trigger because I didn't have a solid hold on the rifle the first time I fired it! It has never doubled on me again in over ten years of shooting it. I is a 140E-1 chambered for 9.3X74R.

9

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
9

jorge how many times you gonna count that Merkel!

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No need, it's established dogma...

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
No need, it's established dogma...

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We do not have an accurate record of problems with guns of the golden era as others have pointed out there has been ample time to find and fix any issues found on vintage guns. I think the guns that have survived in good shape are the ones people rave about. What about those out there that are not in great shape a simple search will turn up dozens of post on how to tell if a vintage gun is ok to purchase. What problem areas you should check. How many have posted about a gun that was great but it was to loose, perhaps because the metallurgy back then wasn’t as good or the tolerances couldn’t be held as close as they are today. I am just pointing out that a lot of what is being compared to modern guns is the cream of the surviving guns from the golden age.
I to have heard about the $185,000.00 H&H that wouldn’t shoot. The takeaway was that H&H made it good. As Sam has reported he has had some problems with new guns but the problems were resolved. I wish we had accurate records of problems with guns manufactured in the golden years because I bet the rate of problems was as high as or higher than it is today. The majority of those were fixed many years before we were borne and the guns went on to provide great service to their owners then and now.
I know that makers like Butch put great emphasis on quality in their shop and are embarrassed when something gets by their inspectors. The fact of life is things will be missed. I worked for Lockheed Martin on the final station on the F-35 production line. They put unbelievable pressure on inspectors and everyone to get it right. For example it took 6 different inspection steps by different inspectors to sell off a weapons bay before it was sold to the customer. This process could take up to 16 hours if nothing big was found and fixed. Now you would think there is no way something could be overlooked. But every once in a while the customer would find a speck of paint or something he didn’t like. You know how worked up the guy spending $185,000.00 on a H&H that isn’t right is how about the guy sinning off on a 769 million end item.
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Cooley:
..We do not have an accurate record of problems with guns of the golden era as others have pointed out there has been ample time to find and fix any issues found on vintage guns.
I think the guns that have survived in good shape are the ones people rave about....

...I am just pointing out that a lot of what is being compared to modern guns is the cream of the surviving guns from the golden age...

...I bet the rate of problems was as high as or higher than it is today. The majority of those were fixed many years before we were borne and the guns
went on to provide great service to their owners then and now.

Bill I strongly agree with you're realistic greater perspective/understanding, rather than
the misty-eyed nostalgic view regarding the quality of rifles from a past-era, vs current.

No way would I throw a whole heap of dollars at a 100yo bespoke SxS, falling block or Bolt action, when
carefully researched and selected modern renditions of such, are superior in so many ways.
- One would have to be a serious die-hard nostalgist not to prefer the later over the former....

'Golden era' H&H double (vs) current MaxErn or Hartmann&Weiss double

orig Gibbs Farq. falling block (vs) current Soroka or Hagn based falling block

orig. Gibbs Mauser .505cal (vs) current Echols M98 .505cal


Having said that, I still think that a newly ordered & delivered modern bespoke rifle that arrives to the owner with function problems,
or major faults like splitting barrels after just a few rounds,... is quiet despicable.
How about ensuring rifle integrity, before spending too much time on external superfluous 'show and shine'...?