quote:

Originally posted by mrlexma:
JPK, I believe that I understand what you are saying concerning the Barnes Banded FN Solid bullet's construction.

And it is definitely hard.

I would not use it in a double rifle.

But I don't shoot a double.

You elephant hunt, so you should!

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
JPK:

What do you think of Hawk softs for a double?

Dave

Dave,

I have no experience with Hawk bullets. But I understand that they are cup and core, with various jacket thicknesses availble for different rates of expansion. If they are cup and core, I would use them. I use Hornaday 350's loaded using the 75% formula for fun and practice.

450NE No2 uses them regularly in his doubles, perhaps he will chime in. He reports that they work well for him, iirc. BTW, he turned me onto the 75% formula.

Also, like 400 Nitro Express, I didn't think you were being argumentative, only drawing out my reasoning and others' reasoning. Nothing like a good back and forth discussion to get to the bottom of things.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

.[/QUOTE]

This is the best attempt at a Bronze mono-lithic solid, I have seen so far! The norrow rings are cut to the proper dia, while the grouves between them are deep enough that the rifleing does not touch their surface. This is very important where double rifles are concerned, because the solid body of the shank is too hard, and with no soft core to allow give makes a solid shank mono metal solid Bronze or even copper too hard to engrave, because the displaced metal has no place to go, with out the pressure rings. The bullet pictured above, however, the pressure rings are fine till you get to the bottom of the shank. For use in a double rifle, the last full diameter section should have been cut into the same size rings as the rest , with only the last one maybe twice as wide for alignment in the case. Even that may not be needed.

This bullet is a very well designed bullet for use in a bolt rifle, or strong flalling block, but I personally would not use it in a double rifle of any age, and certainly not in a ventage double. IMO, the GS custom, and the North Fork solids are the only thing I would use in a double rifle. Untill Barnes cuts the pressure rings all the way to the base of the bullet I will not use, nor reccomend anyone else to use them in a double rifle, no matter what Barnes says in their adds!

I see absolutely no reason to take the chance of ruining the barrels on a $10K to $25K rifle when proper bullets are available for double rifles. Right now that is limited to the GS custom, and the North Fork mono-metal solids!

Others may do as it suits them, and cross their fingers in hopes of not damageing their double rifle! I'll not join them!

...........................

quote:

I see absolutely no reason to take the chance of ruining the barrels on a $10K to $25K rifle when proper bullets are available for double rifles. Right now that is limited to the GS custom, and the North Fork mono-metal solids!

Others may do as it suits them, and cross their fingers in hopes of not damageing their double rifle! I'll not join them!

...........................

Not even the Woodleighs!? I thought they were specifically designed for use in doubles.

I actually have some experience to add to this discussion.

I have used Hawk bullets for years in my Sharps 40-70ss. It has a .408" bore. Mainly 300gr. .035 bullets on hogs and deer. I really like them. My sense is that they are very soft. The copper appears to be as soft as copper can get and the core is dead soft lead.

They mushroom really nicely on big hogs. They will shed the jacket if they go through enough animal. This has not been a problem with killing.

Having said this, I have no idea how they would work on something as heavily constructed as cape buffalo. I wouldn't hesitate to use them on plains game.

I just ordered 400 of the .411" 350gr and 400gr softs to shoot in the Searcy that is on its way out to me.

They will be perfect for practice and hunting here at the ranch. And I may use them in Africa on non-dangerous game. I have no idea what to use on dangerous game.

Try a few of them.

Josh

These were the only pictures I could find of the North Fork rings, and displaced metal in the grooves. They are small but they do show the type of rings needed, and the well displaced metal pushed into the grooves, on the soft point. The grooves are the same in the shank of the FPS, and the CPS solids and allow the displaced metal to flow into the grooves, while never touching the solid diameter of the shank.

The rings on the Barnes should be thinner, and the grooves slightly deeper, and loose the large section of solid shank full diameter at the base end of the bullet!

quote:

Originally posted by Josh A.:
I actually have some experience to add to this discussion.

I have used Hawk bullets for years in my Sharps 40-70ss. It has a .408" bore. Mainly 300gr. .035 bullets on hogs and deer. I really like them. My sense is that they are very soft. The copper appears to be as soft as copper can get and the core is dead soft lead.

They mushroom really nicely on big hogs. They will shed the jacket if they go through enough animal. This has not been a problem with killing.

Having said this, I have no idea how they would work on something as heavily constructed as cape buffalo. I wouldn't hesitate to use them on plains game.

I just ordered 400 of the .411" 350gr and 400gr softs to shoot in the Searcy that is on its way out to me.

They will be perfect for practice and hunting here at the ranch. And I may use them in Africa on non-dangerous game. I have no idea what to use on dangerous game.

Try a few of them.

Josh

Josh:

I found this information on the Hawk FAQ page:

"Over the years we have heard countless stories of the game taken in Africa. Numerous elephant, cape buffalo, rhinocerous, hippopotamus, lion, and leopard. When hunting the cats, it is important to use a bullet that mushrooms as soon as possible, leaving the game in shock. While pursuing the heavier boned animals such as cape buffalo, we advise using the .065 jackets. These jackets are just as soft as our .035s but are such a mass of metal giving them the integrity needed to standup to the largest bone in the world. The smallest diameter bullet with .065 jacket is a 400 grain .416. A cross-section quickly reveals the ratio of jacket to core make this one tough bullet."

Dave

Dave, Josh!,

Use the Woodleigh round nose softs point or better yet their Protected Points softs for bigger game, including buff.

Both feature bonded cores and either is suitable for NE velocity, but the PP is stiffer and so better for buff.

Or just use solids for buff, which is what I do.

No reason to use a cup and core bullet without a bonded jacket.

The new Hornaday softs might prove excellent as well, but the Woodleighs already have a proven track record.

JPK

JPK, do you know what diameter I should use in the Searcy? Is it .410" or .411"?

Dave, I recall seeing that on the Hawk site. From my experience the Hawk's are underrated. The only down side is they look rough when you get them. A function of being soft, I guess.

The Searcy should ship Monday or Tuesday so hopefully this week I'll get some initial pictures up.

I have got brass and dies in 450/400 on hand. I also have 375 flanged brass here and Butch thought he had a set of dies that he would ship with the rifle. Either way I should be able to put something together to shoot the day it shows up.

By the way, I am setting up a Corbin swaging press to make a few calibers. Do you have suggestion about what a general use bullet should look like in 450/400?

j

The "new" Hornady bullets are not new at all. They are the same softs and solids that Hornady made for years. They changed the soft from the Interlock to the Interbond and when their supplier of gilding-metal-plated steel for the solids dried up, they went to a new supplier and a newly designed solid. Now they have gone back to their original bullet design in both cases. The part numbers have even reverted to the original ones, #4504 for the RNSP and #4507 for the solid. I have been using both these bullets for 30 years, in a .458 WM bolt gun at 2170fps and in a .450 #2 NE double at 2050fps. These solids shoot through a Cape Buffalo as if he were not even there. The softs are virtually always recovered under the skin on the off side, with 250% expansion and about 90 % weight retention. I've recovered the solids after digging through a foot of hard-baked Wyoming gumbo and, except for the rifling engraving, could have reloaded and reshot them, no riveting, no bending, nothing.

I "BELIEVE" in premiun bullets. I have shot Nosler Partitions exclusively for 40 years, in the calibres that they produce for my guns. But don't sell the two Hornady 500 grain, .458" bullets short. They work, and they work well!

Ron:

Are the Hornaday softs you are talking about the plain old Interlock or are you referring to their new DG expanding bullet?

Dave

Dave,
The plain old Interlock!

Ron:

I am not surprised buy your results. Sometime last year, my friend and I went to the range to test a bunch of bullets in my 9.3X62. We were shooting into wet phone books. My friend brought along his .375 H&H and we shot some 300 grain RNSP Woodleighs and some 300 Hornaday BTSP into the books as well. It was a big surprise. The Hornadays actually outperformed the Woodleighs. I used to use plain old Hornaday 154 grain spire points in my 7mm Mag with great success. I think the old Interlock is a much better bullet than people think.

Dave

quote:

I think the old Interlock is a much better bullet than people think.

I would strongly agree with that.
---------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Hello,

Don't know any more than just urban legend about mono metal bullets ruining double rifles. In another window of this forum I did get soundly scolded for repeating what several PHs had told me about witnessing them fail to expand on game every now and then. Personally I am curious about mono metal bullets but, other than in a .300 H&H Mauser on the range, I have not tried them yet. My particular .300 did not shoot them accurately at all by the way.

Back to doubles. I'd recon you're totally on the right track asking the RIFLE makers how they feel about such bullets for use in their weapons. Likewise, I'd say JJ Peredeau would be an expert, as one chap here pointed out.

Regarding double rifle accuracy however, my 2 centavos worth is as follows: I've had excellent results in the accuracy/regulation department with my meager collection of only two double rifles and Hornady Interlock RNSP and Hornady RNFMJ. Only being a disgusting beginner to Africa and all, I have yet to fire a "solid" into an animal but have taken a few non dangerous animals with my SxS Merkel in .375 and the Hndy 300 grain RNSP. Most were pass throughs, showing golf ball more or less, size exit holes. The bullets I recovered were perfect mushrooms.

I repeat, they regulate perfectly with their corresponding profile and weight FMJs at the same velocity. I had JJ Peredeau (Sp?) claw mount and re-regulate this rifle to the Hndy 300 grain RN @ 2400 FPS (IMR 4350) and have been very happy with same. It will keep 3 rights (RNSP) and three lefts (RNFMJ) within a playing card from the bench at 100 yds (scope). Likewise, I can actually shoot it from the bench without any huge discomfort due to my sissy ".375 Flanged equivilant" load.

My other double is an Army & Navy SxS in .450#2 Nitro. Likewise it regulates perfectly (possibly a bit more accurate over all than the Merkel) with the "old fashioned" Hndy Interlock 500 grain RNSP and RNFMJ @ 2175 FPS (IMR 4831). I cannot shoot it from the bench (yet) and therefore only practice from the sticks and off hand. However, a friend of mine who is a huge brute of a man shot it from the bench for me. (He also owns several SxS rifles in various calibers including .600 Nitro). He put two softs and two "solids" (FMJ Hndy) from the right and left barrels respectively into 1.5 inches at 50 yds. I can keep all my Hornadys in a grapefruit size mark from standing with the sticks from 100 Yds (wide/shallow V rear "express" and bead front sight).

Bearing in mind that Hornady Interlock bullets are not even rumored to damage double rifles, personally I do not see the need for any other slug for my personal use in my semi-expensive doubles. But perhaps you have something in mind for your rifle that you feel unsure about with Hornadys or Woodleighs? My favorite PH tells me that he would be very happy if I used Woodleigh RNJSP in my larger double for my first shot on buffalo, but would not freak out if I brought Hornady Interlock 500 grainers. He just thinks the 500 grain Hornadys, even my old Interlocks, are not as likely to stop in a broadside buffalo and he prefers Woodleigh SP for that first shot. I guess try as one might to make sure the background is clear, sometimes there is a critter, unseen in the foliage behind your intended target and a pass through is not good for that scenario.

Again, I am but a putrid beginner with African hunting but I have shot my doubles enough to conclude that; at least in the accuracy/regulation department, not to mention very safe for the barrels and solder department, I have found my bullet for both rifles. Is there some critter we should know about that a stout-ish cup and core .458 diameter RN bullet, weighing 500 grains and launching at 2175 FPS will not bring to bag with a properly placed shot at close range?

Safe Hunting.
Ard.

Ard,

The answer to the question of what won't fall to a big soft is elephant, hippo and a poorly hit buff or a buff heading straight or quartering away after a first shot. For these you will need solids.

Also, solids work best on the smaller antelope where a soft might do more damage than wanted.

Just so there is no misunderstanding, are you aware of the three or four iterations of the Hornaday solids?

From:
1. Steel jacketed round noses with an excellent reputation.
2. Encapsulate brass jacketed solids with an extremely poor reputation.
3. Maybe a second generation of encapsulated solids sharing a very poor reputation.
4. The new steel jacketed solids with a flat meplat which seem to be earning an excellent reputation.

Do you know which Hornaday solid you are using? You can check any round noses with a magnet to insure that they are the successful steel jacketed solids of the past and not the more recent failures without the steel jackets.

In so far as accuracy, I have found the NF's incredibly accurate, more so than the Woodleighs. That said, either provide more than sufficient accuracy, as I'm sure the Hornadays provide.

A 500gr .458" round nose steel jacketed solid at 2175fps is enough for anything, imo (heck, I shoot them at 2145fps and think they are enough for anything!) A NF will provide more penetration though, as will a GS Custom.

JPK

JPK,

Have you seen any of the Hornady 45 caliber DGS solid offerings. Is the meplat fairly large? On the 375's I have witnessed, there is not much of a flat surface.

Only photos. I appears much wider that the 375's. If you search on Double Rifles or Big Bore under Will's name as poster, you should find both photos and Will's measurements of them.

JPK

As best as I can measure and the Hornady bullet is very difficult to measure, I come up with a meplat dia of around .300 for approximately 65% of bullet diameter in .458 dia vs the NF bullet in .474 dia with a meplat of .404 for 85% bullet diameter.

see the following for more discussion.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=175107909#175107909

465H&H

It's a simple matter to know which Hornady solids that you are shooting in .458 caliber. If the part number on the box is #4507 then you've got the original solids with the excellent reputation or else the latest iteration of them!

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Ard,

The answer to the question of what won't fall to a big soft is elephant, hippo and a poorly hit buff or a buff heading straight or quartering away after a first shot. For these you will need solids.

Also, solids work best on the smaller antelope where a soft might do more damage than wanted.

Just so there is no misunderstanding, are you aware of the three or four iterations of the Hornaday solids?

From:
1. Steel jacketed round noses with an excellent reputation.
2. Encapsulate brass jacketed solids with an extremely poor reputation.
3. Maybe a second generation of encapsulated solids sharing a very poor reputation.
4. The new steel jacketed solids with a flat meplat which seem to be earning an excellent reputation.

Do you know which Hornaday solid you are using? You can check any round noses with a magnet to insure that they are the successful steel jacketed solids of the past and not the more recent failures without the steel jackets.

In so far as accuracy, I have found the NF's incredibly accurate, more so than the Woodleighs. That said, either provide more than sufficient accuracy, as I'm sure the Hornadays provide.

A 500gr .458" round nose steel jacketed solid at 2175fps is enough for anything, imo (heck, I shoot them at 2145fps and think they are enough for anything!) A NF will provide more penetration though, as will a GS Custom.

JPK

Hello JPK,

Thanks for your reply. However, you did not answer my question (very last sentence of my above/previous post). If you get a spare minute, please read that last sentence again. You will see that the question does not mention a "big soft" as you put it. Cup and core bullets are not automatically JSP. They are still cup and core when the lead is exposed at the tail instead of at the nose.

By the way, how did you get: "poorly hit buff" from my words: "properly placed shot"?

Yes, I was mildly aware of the evolutionary ups and downs in Hndy FMJ bullets (I'm an old fart who's been reloading continuously for just over 40 years). However, I could not have listed all 4 of them in correct order. So I guess there goes my "A+" on that particular question.

Yes I do know which ones I have found accurate in both my rifles. They are the Interlock version (not the newest "DGX and DGS" or "Interbond" Innerbond whatever, version). The Interlocks are possibly still being made or at least plentiful enough to currently be found on gun show tables and at "real" gun stores in new, unopened boxes. I will get my hands on a magnet soon and test them as per your suggestion. Good idea. Thanks. Rigby style steel covered bullets need no introduction, especially from a wide eyed beginner in Africana like me. From all that I have read and listened to in person from experienced men, I agree that "solids" are the only reasonable option for elephant or hippo plus following up buffalo or saving pygmy antelope meat and skins.

I repeat myself in paraphrase:
What is the point of wanting so very much to shoot monolithic bullets through a double rifle? All of a sudden do properly constructed "conventional bullets" not work in the doubles, especially at the old Nitro velocities? Underline "properly constructed". Bearing in mind the success of properly constructed traditional dangerous game projectiles, is risking one's $10,000 and up SxS really worth whatever the latest monolithic bullets promise to deliver? Not for me. Some day I will likely get around to trying them again in a bolt gun but I see no valid point in shooting them in my SxS weapons at the moment.

I know I am a wordy troll (wordy OLD troll) and I almost apologise for same. Almost.

Best Regards,
Ard.

quote:

Originally posted by Ard:
(not the newest "DGX and DGS" or "Interbond" Innerbond whatever, version).I will get my hands on a magnet soon and test them as per your suggestion. Good idea. Thanks.

I repeat myself in paraphrase:
What is the point of wanting so very much to shoot monolithic bullets through a double rifle? All of a sudden do properly constructed "conventional bullets" not work in the doubles, especially at the old Nitro velocities? Underline "properly constructed". Bearing in mind the success of properly constructed traditional dangerous game projectiles, is risking one's $10,000 and up SxS really worth whatever the latest monolithic bullets promise to deliver? Not for me. Some day I will likely get around to trying them again in a bolt gun but I see no valid point in shooting them in my SxS weapons at the moment.

I know I am a wordy troll (wordy OLD troll) and I almost apologise for same. Almost.

Best Regards,
Ard.

Ard,

Yes you should make sure that your solids are the steel jacketed variety, since the others have proven failures.

There is no risk shooting driving band bullets in double rifles. The Steel jacketed bullets are considerably tougher on a double, or any rifle, than the driving band solids made by NF or GS Custom.

Furthermore, the great majority of NE rifles need all of the penetration they can get, since actual velocities achieved by most are at the lowest end of marginal, in so far as penetration is concerned.

Your rifle would be an exception. First, the nominal ballistics of a 450NE No2 are 2175fps out of a 28" barrel with 480 grs. You achieve that velocity even shooting 500gr bullets. Some will say that you are over loaded, I say congratulations. Almost all 450NE rifles shoot closer to nominal velocities than most other NE rounds, and that is because their barrels are closer in real length to the barrel used to develop nominal velocities. And your rifle does this with a bullet 20grs heavier than standard to boot. RARE.

But take a look at, say, the 470NE. Nominal balistics = 500grs at 2125fps, out of a 31" barrel. This barrel length is 5 to 7" longer than typical of real double rifles. Real velocities of real vintage rifles are most frquently well below the nominal performance numbers for this reason. Penetration suffers, greatly. A good, easy on doubles, flat nose, driving band solid will add tremendous improvement, on the order of 40% greater penetration.

So you take a pretty powerful stopping rifle, that suffers and has long suffered from marginal penteration and you improve it by one entire class of performance, with no risk to your rifle.

The same applieds to most every other NE cartridge.

By the way, good solids are mandatory, but for a big bore, softs are entirely optional. Best to concentrate on your solids.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Ard:
(not the newest "DGX and DGS" or "Interbond" Innerbond whatever, version).I will get my hands on a magnet soon and test them as per your suggestion. Good idea. Thanks.

I repeat myself in paraphrase:
What is the point of wanting so very much to shoot monolithic bullets through a double rifle? All of a sudden do properly constructed "conventional bullets" not work in the doubles, especially at the old Nitro velocities? Underline "properly constructed". Bearing in mind the success of properly constructed traditional dangerous game projectiles, is risking one's $10,000 and up SxS really worth whatever the latest monolithic bullets promise to deliver? Not for me. Some day I will likely get around to trying them again in a bolt gun but I see no valid point in shooting them in my SxS weapons at the moment.

I know I am a wordy troll (wordy OLD troll) and I almost apologise for same. Almost.

Best Regards,
Ard.

Ard,

Yes you should make sure that your solids are the steel jacketed variety, since the others have proven failures.

There is no risk shooting driving band bullets in double rifles. The Steel jacketed bullets are considerably tougher on a double, or any rifle, than the driving band solids made by NF or GS Custom.

Furthermore, the great majority of NE rifles need all of the penetration they can get, since actual velocities achieved by most are at the lowest end of marginal, in so far as penetration is concerned.

Your rifle would be an exception. First, the nominal ballistics of a 450NE No2 are 2175fps out of a 28" barrel with 480 grs. You achieve that velocity even shooting 500gr bullets. Some will say that you are over loaded, I say congratulations. Almost all 450NE rifles shoot closer to nominal velocities than most other NE rounds, and that is because their barrels are closer in real length to the barrel used to develop nominal velocities. And your rifle does this with a bullet 20grs heavier than standard to boot. RARE.

But take a look at, say, the 470NE. Nominal balistics = 500grs at 2125fps, out of a 31" barrel. This barrel length is 5 to 7" longer than typical of real double rifles. Real velocities of real vintage rifles are most frquently well below the nominal performance numbers for this reason. Penetration suffers, greatly. A good, easy on doubles, flat nose, driving band solid will add tremendous improvement, on the order of 40% greater penetration.

So you take a pretty powerful stopping rifle, that suffers and has long suffered from marginal penteration and you improve it by one entire class of performance, with no risk to your rifle.

The same applieds to most every other NE cartridge.

By the way, good solids are mandatory, but for a big bore, softs are entirely optional. Best to concentrate on your solids.

JPK

Hi JPK,

Thanks again. Your input is appreciated. I had heard that Hndy .458 in 500 grain RNSP now and then failed to hold together against heavy bone, even at realistic .458 Winchester velocity (1850-ish to 1900-ish FPS), depending on barrel length and perhaps other factors). However, your mention of Hornady brand, same caliber and weight but FMJ version showing "proven failures" is news to me. I do not doubt it, I just had not heard it until this moment. Now I will for sure play a magnet against my substantial stockpile of Hndy .458 bullets. I have no intention to shoot any truly heavy animal with the .375, much as I enjoy it for other types of big game hunting. (For taking so called "plains game", I don't really care if the jackets are steel or just regular guilding metal). The heavy critters are what the .450 was designed for.

I'd read that the brittle and thin jacketed Kynoch FMJ (cupro-nickle?) bullets shamefully marketed for a dark stretch in hunting history failed a bit too often against heavy bone. Also I read that uninformed hunters using light for caliber bullets intended for non-heavy game had failures to penetrate large beasts. The 300 grain "capped" .404 looked like a FMJ to some folks I guess. History indicates the Germans had great difficulty designing proper African bullets for their otherwise excellent cartridges but I am mostly interested in the big British tropical hunting cartridge designs any way.

Other than the above, I had not heard of the big Nitro cartridges lacking penetration with old fashioned FMJ bullets. John "Pondoro" Taylor wrote of shooting through multiple heavy animals with a single round before WW-II. JA Hunter, something of a rifle enthusiast, did not complain of his big Nitro rifles (.500 SxS and .416 Rigby Mauser among others) lacking in penetration.

Perhaps I am fortunate because my stopping rifle truthfully chronographs @ 2175 FPS W/500 grainers and shows zero pressure signs, plus remarkable accuracy for a SxS. As you suspected, my barrels are indeed 28". I do not plan to have them shortened either by the way. The maker's mark on the flats indicate 480 grain bullet with 85 grains of Cordite. Even with way more than just 85 Gr of IMR 4831 in the huge case to reach 2175 FPS, I still have to use inert filler or they hang fire. With filler, it does nothing of the sort. My eyes are aging and I need a larger front bead but aside from that, my big rifle seems to have been made to fit me. I live and breathe to sack a buffalo with it some day soon.

Incidently, two of my friends have rifles in .450#2 Nitro as well. The guy who's chronograph I used has a Ruger #1 rechambered from .458 Winchester and he gets over 2300 FPS from the Ruger factory rechambered 24" barrel but burns even more powder than my mentioned load in his rifle. No serious pressure signs to speak of but recoil looks "fierce" and I have declined his offer to let me shoot it. The other chap has a box lock ejector London built SxS with professionally bobbed barrels (also 24"). He shoots the exact same load as myself (I got the recipe' from him in the first place) and his shorter pipes honestly chronograph @ 2125-ish FPS. I guess we are three lucky guys from the same town with three chronographically speaking, "RARE" Nitro Express large caliber rifles. What are the mathmatical odds of that?

The latter man hunts with only vintage doubles. He has several of them from .400 Jeffery through .600 Nitro (actually through 8 bore but that's a black powder cartridge rifle and he casts his own bullets for that one). He only shoots Hornady and Woodleigh in his Nitro rifles. After 9 trips to Africa (primarily Zimbabwe and Tanzania) he has no complaints about penetration when shooting proper FMJ bullets into animals and he has shot a pile of them.

Again, I am still learing all of this stuff and your input is appreciated.

Regards.
Ard.

quote:

All of a sudden do properly constructed "conventional bullets" not work in the doubles, especially at the old Nitro velocities? Underline "properly constructed".

Of course they still work. Just as a 1975 Ford F100 will still do everything it could do in 1975. I cannot imagine that you would not concede that today there are better and more practical alternatives to a '75 F100 that will be more efficient and can do more.

quote:

Bearing in mind the success of properly constructed traditional dangerous game projectiles, is risking one's $10,000 and up SxS really worth whatever the latest monolithic bullets promise to deliver?

quote:

I think that you could damage the thin barrels of your vintage double rifle by firing monolithic solids.

Gentlemen,
All mono solids are not equal just as all jacketed lead core bullets are not equal, all doubles are not equal and all powders are not equal. Is it so strange that different brands of bullets could be designed and constructed differently, even though they are made from similar materials? Can one class an unbonded core hollow point into the same performance and application category as a bonded core partition style bullet? After all, both have copper jackets and lead cores? Can one expect Rel 12 to give the same result as Rel 25? After all, the raw material for both is nitrocellulose?

quote:

Double rifles are "different" in enough ways to produce a definite learning curve.

With respect, I would say that GSC drive band bullets are different in enough ways that a learning curve is present/required.

Please see my post in A Bit of Progress.

Ard,

First, beware that there will be none of the traditional overload, over pressure signs in a NE double rifle before loads are far, far, far beyond pressures for which the (vintage) rifle was proved. This is simply because pressure signs like primier flattening, primer or brass extrusion, loose primer pockets and like - which in my opinion are not reliable signs in ANY rifle - will only occur at (or really in excess of) modern cartridge pressure, near a third higher or double NE pressures. A possible, but unreliable indication, other than the POI of the respective barrels crossing, is difficulty opening the rifle.

That off my chest and appologies if I was preaching to the choir:

Most NE cartridges provide sufficient, and little or no more than sufficient, penetration.

I have had the advantage of using my rifle at 2025fps and 2145fps with Woodleigh steel jacketed solids and the difference in penetration, and knock down effect, is remarkable and non linear.

Recall, your rifle is not only shooting to nominal velocities, it is doing so with a bullet 20grs heavier to boot. But those 450/400 3" and 470 shooters (of vuntage rifles) are frequently shooting in the neighborhood of 2000fps to 2050fps, and this is marginal when it comes to penetration.

I'd venture to say that if Taylor had had the opportunity to shoot flat nose driving band mono solids, he would have been a tremendoud advocate! Free penetration, that's easier on your rifle, whats not to like about that!

A flat nose driving band bullet is easier on your rifle than any steel Jacketed solid and provides substantially more penetration. Also, I am nearly certain that GS Custom is sufficiently confident of their product that they gaurantee to foot the bill if their bullet causes damage. No one else does that, to the best of my knowledge.

On the 458wm, actual in the field velocities of 2150fps (to even 2250fps in some rifles), with 500gr bullets, is more than possible. 2150 is very easy to acheive. Your is one of only two 450NE rifle that I have ever heard of that performes in the same league as the well loaded 458wm. My own big bore double rifle is a 458wm and I shoot 500's at 2145fps, limited not by pressure - and I've had my loads pressure tested and they are well below max - but limited by the rifle's regulation, ie, this is the fastest that 500's will shoot to regualtion in my rifle. Fortunately, 500grs at 2145fps is enough.

I shoot 450gr Flat nose diving band mono bullets at 2220fps, a load that is also well below max, but which is the fastest load that will shoot to regulation. The flat nose solids, with less momentum and energy that the 500gr round nose solids, far, far exceed the round noses' penetration, on order of 40%.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:

quote:

All of a sudden do properly constructed "conventional bullets" not work in the doubles, especially at the old Nitro velocities? Underline "properly constructed".

Of course they still work. Just as a 1975 Ford F100 will still do everything it could do in 1975. I cannot imagine that you would not concede that today there are better and more practical alternatives to a '75 F100 that will be more efficient and can do more.

quote:

Bearing in mind the success of properly constructed traditional dangerous game projectiles, is risking one's $10,000 and up SxS really worth whatever the latest monolithic bullets promise to deliver?

quote:

I think that you could damage the thin barrels of your vintage double rifle by firing monolithic solids.

Gentlemen,
All mono solids are not equal just as all jacketed lead core bullets are not equal, all doubles are not equal and all powders are not equal. Is it so strange that different brands of bullets could be designed and constructed differently, even though they are made from similar materials? Can one class an unbonded core hollow point into the same performance and application category as a bonded core partition style bullet? After all, both have copper jackets and lead cores? Can one expect Rel 12 to give the same result as Rel 25? After all, the raw material for both is nitrocellulose?

quote:

Double rifles are "different" in enough ways to produce a definite learning curve.

With respect, I would say that GSC drive band bullets are different in enough ways that a learning curve is present/required.

Please see my post in A Bit of Progress.

Hello Gerard,

I did go to your other post listed as you suggested. It was well put. Thank you for it. However, my question is: With all of the many differences in travelling through the bore you speak of, (between convential bullets and GS Custom flat nose monolithics),...would there not potentially be a whole new trial and error phase to get one's double to regulate with the GSC?

Regarding my Army & Navy .450#2, it regulates extremely well with the Hornady 500 grain Interlock softs and solids at 2175 FPS (my rifle has 28" barrels). There is no way I'm going through trial and error from the bench with that cannon in hopes of finding a bullet that will penetrate farther than clear through a buffalo.
The 500 grain FMJRN Hornady and/or Woodleigh @ 2175 FPS reportedly does this reliably from most angles. Do I really need a new bakkie to haul my firewood home when my old Ford truck still runs like it did in 1975?

If I cannot lower the boom on a buffalo with Hornadys or Woodleighs in such a tried and true cartridge, I would then readily have to admit to being not much of a rifle shot.

However, I've heard all good things (except feeding problems in some poorly made magazine rifles) from several people, now including your excellent post, about the GS Custom flat nose solids. A PH I spoke with during Sept-2008, told me of personally shooting a GSC solid lengthwise, almost but not quite clear through a bull elephant (.416 Rigby). Now that's penetration!

The PH's I've listened to regarding expanding monometal bullets did not especially like them but their opinion on monometal true "solids" is another horse altogether. They all seemed to like them but no mention of using them in doubles. I only met one PH during my 3 trips to Africa so far that even owned a double. He strictly used Federal factory live ammunition (.470 Merkel SxS) and it sounded like he never tried anything else. Sort of like my experience with the amazingly accurate .450#2 load I keep crowing about like a drunk rooster.

Even though I likely will not be able to afford a big tusker per se', I might one day get in on a problem/tuskless scenario or some such. If I ever get my claws on GSC solids, I will try them in one or more of my Mausers. My eyes are getting old and I may not be able to shoot my open sight .450 accurately for many more years any way. I won't scope it. I'll just use my properly scoped Mausers from then on until I sleep with the fishes.

Thanks again for your excellent and informative posts. You are an interesting writer.

Keep Well,
Ard

IMHO you do not need a new 4X4 PU to haul your firewood home. If your only hunting buffalo, the new Hornadys will work just fine. I also suspect the new Hornady DGS solid will work perfectly for elephant should you get the oppurtunity and it regulates the same as the older version. I wouldn't use the non-steel jacketed Hornady solids for any purpose other than range practice.

Saying that, I think the FN mono-metal solids make more sense for use in double rifles than for use in bolt rifles. With a double rifle you won't have the feeding problems common to FN solids in bolt guns. I have not used North Fork FN monos on game but have used some on the range from my 470 Searcy and found that with the same load they hit to exactly the same point of impact as the Woodleigh bullets the rifle was regulated for. Just be sure that the longer monos stabilize in your twist rate by shooting a few at 25, 50, 100 and 150 yards and looking to make sure the bullet holes are perfectly round at all ranges. Stick with the driving band monos such as NF or GS out of your doubles and avoid Barnes or Nosler from your double.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Ard,

First, beware that there will be none of the traditional overload, over pressure signs in a NE double rifle before loads are far, far, far beyond pressures for which the (vintage) rifle was proved. This is simply because pressure signs like primier flattening, primer or brass extrusion, loose primer pockets and like - which in my opinion are not reliable signs in ANY rifle - will only occur at (or really in excess of) modern cartridge pressure, near a third higher or double NE pressures. A possible, but unreliable indication, other than the POI of the respective barrels crossing, is difficulty opening the rifle.

That off my chest and appologies if I was preaching to the choir:

Most NE cartridges provide sufficient, and little or no more than sufficient, penetration.

I have had the advantage of using my rifle at 2025fps and 2145fps with Woodleigh steel jacketed solids and the difference in penetration, and knock down effect, is remarkable and non linear.

Recall, your rifle is not only shooting to nominal velocities, it is doing so with a bullet 20grs heavier to boot. But those 450/400 3" and 470 shooters (of vuntage rifles) are frequently shooting in the neighborhood of 2000fps to 2050fps, and this is marginal when it comes to penetration.

I'd venture to say that if Taylor had had the opportunity to shoot flat nose driving band mono solids, he would have been a tremendoud advocate! Free penetration, that's easier on your rifle, whats not to like about that!

A flat nose driving band bullet is easier on your rifle than any steel Jacketed solid and provides substantially more penetration. Also, I am nearly certain that GS Custom is sufficiently confident of their product that they gaurantee to foot the bill if their bullet causes damage. No one else does that, to the best of my knowledge.

On the 458wm, actual in the field velocities of 2150fps (to even 2250fps in some rifles), with 500gr bullets, is more than possible. 2150 is very easy to acheive. Your is one of only two 450NE rifle that I have ever heard of that performes in the same league as the well loaded 458wm. My own big bore double rifle is a 458wm and I shoot 500's at 2145fps, limited not by pressure - and I've had my loads pressure tested and they are well below max - but limited by the rifle's regulation, ie, this is the fastest that 500's will shoot to regualtion in my rifle. Fortunately, 500grs at 2145fps is enough.

I shoot 450gr Flat nose diving band mono bullets at 2220fps, a load that is also well below max, but which is the fastest load that will shoot to regulation. The flat nose solids, with less momentum and energy that the 500gr round nose solids, far, far exceed the round noses' penetration, on order of 40%.

JPK

Thanks JPK,

Your information is valuable. I thank you for it.
That rifle of yours sounds more remarkable than anything I've ever witnessed in SxS weapons. Yours regulates well with 500 grainers at 2145 FPS, as well as 450 grainers at 2220 PFS. Have to say I'd never heard of a double rifle like that. I do not doubt your word, I'm just surprised to hear of such a versatile and forgiving weapon.

Re: pressure, my particular rifle has extractors only and my empties just fall free without having to shake the rifle. I'm happy with it all. Likewise, if you scroll back up a couple frames and read my second to last paragraph, you will then have heard of a total of three SxS .450#2s counting the one you yourself had already referred to that, drive their bullets at or near factory specs. (This is not counting the rebored Ruger #1 I described with heavier loads.)

Cheers,
Ard.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
IMHO you do not need a new 4X4 PU to haul your firewood home. If your only hunting buffalo, the new Hornadys will work just fine. I also suspect the new Hornady DGS solid will work perfectly for elephant should you get the oppurtunity and it regulates the same as the older version. I wouldn't use the non-steel jacketed Hornady solids for any purpose other than range practice.

Saying that, I think the FN mono-metal solids make more sense for use in double rifles than for use in bolt rifles. With a double rifle you won't have the feeding problems common to FN solids in bolt guns. I have not used North Fork FN monos on game but have used some on the range from my 470 Searcy and found that with the same load they hit to exactly the same point of impact as the Woodleigh bullets the rifle was regulated for. Just be sure that the longer monos stabilize in your twist rate by shooting a few at 25, 50, 100 and 150 yards and looking to make sure the bullet holes are perfectly round at all ranges. Stick with the driving band monos such as NF or GS out of your doubles and avoid Barnes or Nosler from your double.

465H&H

Hello 465H&H,

Thanks for your input. Point well taken.

If I ever get my claws on GSC solids, I will try them in one or more of my Mausers.

However: I'm not convinced that there's some yet to be discovered race of "super buffalo" which a properly made Hornady, Woodleigh, etc, .458 diameter RN JSP and/or FMJ 500 grain bullet and launching at 2175 FPS will not bring to bag with a properly placed shot at close range.

I know a man who has shot over a thousand buffalo with conventional bullets (admittedly he was culling most of them) and has only been charged twice. Neither charge resulted from ones he had shot. He is now a PH and one was a client's gut shooting error and the other was apparently unwounded but in a bad mood for some unknown reason. Incidently, this same man now likes mono solids lately (but not so much expanding monmetal bullets).

His stopping rifle is a .458 3inch Express on a CZ 550 Magnum action. I've shot it from standing with sticks, and it (recoil) was surprisingly not as bad as I thought it would be. It was very accurate for me as well.

Best Regards.
Ard.

quote:

Originally posted by Ard:

Thanks JPK,

Your information is valuable. I thank you for it.
That rifle of yours sounds more remarkable than anything I've ever witnessed in SxS weapons. Yours regulates well with 500 grainers at 2145 FPS, as well as 450 grainers at 2220 PFS. Have to say I'd never heard of a double rifle like that. I do not doubt your word, I'm just surprised to hear of such a versatile and forgiving weapon.

Re: pressure, my particular rifle has extractors only and my empties just fall free without having to shake the rifle. I'm happy with it all. Likewise, if you scroll back up a couple frames and read my second to last paragraph, you will then have heard of a total of three SxS .450#2s counting the one you yourself had already referred to that, drive their bullets at or near factory specs. (This is not counting the rebored Ruger #1 I described with heavier loads.)

Cheers,
Ard.

Ard,

Re 450NE rifles, I was referring to shooting to 2175 with 500's, which exceeds nominal performance by a measurable amount. I know of a couple of 450NE's that shoot to nominal velocity with the standard 480's.

On getting different bullet weights to shoot to regulation, its not too difficult in most rifles. For my rifle, I have a load that shoots 350gr bullets to just a touch over POI for the 500's or 450's. I have the 450 load as well, and I have run through three or so different loads with different velocities that shoot the 500's to regulation as well, with perhaps some slight differences in elevation, but none regarding right and left barrels shooting properly in relation to one another. The 458wm has an advantage over many NE cartridges regarding different velocities shooting to regulation because there are many more suitable powders and it is possible to find a load that shoots well with more than one, ussually at different velocities, at least in my rifle. But I have abandoned all of the slower loads since the load I shoot provides more performance and is well below max pressure, and proved so in tests.

Regarding shooting the 350's, 450's, 480's and 500's to regulation in a 450NE No2, a contributor here, who's screen name is appropriately "450NE No2", shoots all four weights without issue. In fact he informed me of the fantastic performance of the 450 NF's on elephant from his rifle and urged that I try them. That was excellent advice. I believe he also shoots the 450's at 2220fps. His rifle has 28" barrels.

450NE No2 pointed me in the direction of the 75% Formula, which calls for loading a bullet approximately 75% of the weight of the standard bullet for the catridge over the powder charg used in full power loads that shoot to regulation. For my rifle 75%x500grs=375grs. Closest common bullet weight = 350grs. For your rifle you would also use the 350's since they are closest for your's too. If you try the 75% Formula load chances are excellent that your load will shoot very close to regulation and need, if any, only slight upward or downward adjustment. In fact, I am unaware of any rifle that refuses to follow the Formula and shoot well. Recoil will be modestly reduced and there are plenty of cheap 350gr bullets for practice or pig hunting or even deer hunting.

While my experience is limited to the three double rifles that I own, and in practice really to just the 458wm double, since that is the one that I have experimented with most, I believe that many, if not most or even all, would prove far more forgiving than the type is generally given credit for. 450NE No2's rifle stands as an example, as does mine. Most owners do not work with them enough, I think, and are relieved to simply find any load that shoots well.

Regarding 465H&H's comment about twist rates, I believe that the standard twist rate of the 450NE's was 1:15". This is plenty fast enough to stabilize the 450NF's, which are shorter than the 500's and will shoot faster to boot. And that twist rate exceeds the 470's. Twist is more important to penetration than most realize; increased velocity adds rotational stability, given equal bullet length.

BTW, a 458 3" Express, loaded with South African Somchem powder, S335 is the recommended powder, about equals a moderate toward hot, but not max, loaded 458 Lott, assuming the Lott is loaded with US or Aussie powder. In fact, it is not far from the max loaded 458wm with US or Aussie powders, and isn't too far from what your rifle is shooting. The "inventor's" web site shows 2250fps with 500's, not much more with 450's. He recomends the 450 weight range bullets. See the site here: http://www.458express.com/

Buff are no match for round nose solids, even at 2000fps, and the flat noses are overkill. It is when elephant are the target that the penetration of the flat noses shines.

JPK

I have had excellent results with Hawk bullets.

In the 9,3x74R I have used a 285gr Hawk, with the .035jkt on deer, wild pigs and impala.

In my 450/400 3 1/4" [following the 75% Rule]

I have used a 300gr with the .025jkt for deer and wild pigs. The extra thin jacket was chosen to make an elephant gun into a deer pig gun.

Everything hit with this load has been a bang flop.

I have also used a Hawk 400gr bullet in the 450/400 with the .053jkt on pigs, also a banf flop.

The only animal hit with a Hawk that has moved was one ig that went about 10 feet.

Also adding to JPK's comments about my 450 No2, I have loads with the 350, 480, and 500gr bullets with IMR 3031, IMR 4831 and RL 15 that regulate and hit to the sights. I refer RL 15 the most and have only used it with the 450 North Forks.

I still use IMR 3031 with the 350 Hornadays because I have a lot of it on hand.

I also have Nitro for Black loads that regulate and hit with the sights at 50 yards for my big bore doubles. Velocities in the 1700 to 1850fps range, very plesant to shoot.

I have helped several people develop loads for double rifles. They just do not seem that difficult to develop loads for in my experience.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I also have Nitro for Black loads that regulate and hit with the sights at 50 yards for my big bore doubles. Velocities in the 1700 to 1850fps range, very plesant to shoot.

I have helped several people develop loads for double rifles. They just do not seem that difficult to develop loads for in my experience.

450NE,

Interesting that you have developed the NFB loads and that they shoot to regulation.

After reading Graeme Wright's book and playing around with my rifle, it became apparent that there are a number of different X's one can work through. (X = typical prgression of shooting high and apart at low velocity to shooting together at the right velocity for that bullet/powder, etc comb to crossing and shooting low.)

I find that too low velocity can make the barrels cross and shoot low as readily as too much.

I think I could develop NFB equivelnets in my rifle if I gave it some effort. I think I'll try. What bullets and what weights are you shooting in your NFB loads?

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Ard:

Thanks JPK,

Your information is valuable. I thank you for it.
That rifle of yours sounds more remarkable than anything I've ever witnessed in SxS weapons. Yours regulates well with 500 grainers at 2145 FPS, as well as 450 grainers at 2220 PFS. Have to say I'd never heard of a double rifle like that. I do not doubt your word, I'm just surprised to hear of such a versatile and forgiving weapon.

Re: pressure, my particular rifle has extractors only and my empties just fall free without having to shake the rifle. I'm happy with it all. Likewise, if you scroll back up a couple frames and read my second to last paragraph, you will then have heard of a total of three SxS .450#2s counting the one you yourself had already referred to that, drive their bullets at or near factory specs. (This is not counting the rebored Ruger #1 I described with heavier loads.)

Cheers,
Ard.

Ard,

Re 450NE rifles, I was referring to shooting to 2175 with 500's, which exceeds nominal performance by a measurable amount. I know of a couple of 450NE's that shoot to nominal velocity with the standard 480's.

On getting different bullet weights to shoot to regulation, its not too difficult in most rifles. For my rifle, I have a load that shoots 350gr bullets to just a touch over POI for the 500's or 450's. I have the 450 load as well, and I have run through three or so different loads with different velocities that shoot the 500's to regulation as well, with perhaps some slight differences in elevation, but none regarding right and left barrels shooting properly in relation to one another. The 458wm has an advantage over many NE cartridges regarding different velocities shooting to regulation because there are many more suitable powders and it is possible to find a load that shoots well with more than one, ussually at different velocities, at least in my rifle. But I have abandoned all of the slower loads since the load I shoot provides more performance and is well below max pressure, and proved so in tests.

Regarding shooting the 350's, 450's, 480's and 500's to regulation in a 450NE No2, a contributor here, who's screen name is appropriately "450NE No2", shoots all four weights without issue. In fact he informed me of the fantastic performance of the 450 NF's on elephant from his rifle and urged that I try them. That was excellent advice. I believe he also shoots the 450's at 2220fps. His rifle has 28" barrels.

450NE No2 pointed me in the direction of the 75% Formula, which calls for loading a bullet approximately 75% of the weight of the standard bullet for the catridge over the powder charg used in full power loads that shoot to regulation. For my rifle 75%x500grs=375grs. Closest common bullet weight = 350grs. For your rifle you would also use the 350's since they are closest for your's too. If you try the 75% Formula load chances are excellent that your load will shoot very close to regulation and need, if any, only slight upward or downward adjustment. In fact, I am unaware of any rifle that refuses to follow the Formula and shoot well. Recoil will be modestly reduced and there are plenty of cheap 350gr bullets for practice or pig hunting or even deer hunting.

While my experience is limited to the three double rifles that I own, and in practice really to just the 458wm double, since that is the one that I have experimented with most, I believe that many, if not most or even all, would prove far more forgiving than the type is generally given credit for. 450NE No2's rifle stands as an example, as does mine. Most owners do not work with them enough, I think, and are relieved to simply find any load that shoots well.

Regarding 465H&H's comment about twist rates, I believe that the standard twist rate of the 450NE's was 1:15". This is plenty fast enough to stabilize the 450NF's, which are shorter than the 500's and will shoot faster to boot. And that twist rate exceeds the 470's. Twist is more important to penetration than most realize; increased velocity adds rotational stability, given equal bullet length.

BTW, a 458 3" Express, loaded with South African Somchem powder, S335 is the recommended powder, about equals a moderate toward hot, but not max, loaded 458 Lott, assuming the Lott is loaded with US or Aussie powder. In fact, it is not far from the max loaded 458wm with US or Aussie powders, and isn't too far from what your rifle is shooting. The "inventor's" web site shows 2250fps with 500's, not much more with 450's. He recomends the 450 weight range bullets. See the site here: http://www.458express.com/

Buff are no match for round nose solids, even at 2000fps, and the flat noses are overkill. It is when elephant are the target that the penetration of the flat noses shines.

JPK

Thanks JPK,

I will print your info out and stash it in my SxS file as I had once heard (from Champlin Arms) that the 350 grain RNSP can be regulated pretty well in the SxS and is worth trying on N. American critters and "plinking" in the .450#2.

In regards to a SxS in .458 Winchester, many of them have been reportedly rebored to .450#2, now that brass is again plentiful. I sometimes wonder if the perfect wanderer's SxS might be one in .458 3 inch or Lott, etc, so a person would be reasonably sure of finding ammunition throughout his trampings about in far away places. I'm told the "standard .458 Winchester" shell can be fired in those two, perhaps others in a big pinch. On the other hand, I guess arriving without your ammo is not as common in reality as it is in theory.

I bought my first SxS (.375 H&H belted) partly because of the above concern. After being reassured by plenty of other wanderering hunters and fishers, the only reason I still think about it at all now is that once, my wife's dive gear did not arrive in Central America (Honduras) until almost a week after we did. The same could just as well happen to my ammo I guess, even though I devide it between two bags (like we did and still do our dive gear). Whatever.

A SxS in a long chambered, standard H&H belted head size .458 shell would be pretty easy to get some version of live ammo for in most of Africa, from all I have heard and seen. Oh well I cannot afford to get back over there for a couple years yet any way. I'll ponder it later (or not).

Thanks again for your post it is again, worth printing out for my future reference.

Cheers.
Ard.

I might bring old news to you, but I got a little lost in the discussion between JPK and Ard Anyway... I have owned a couple of doubles, but then mostly new ones. I am currently waiting for a Krieghoff in 500NE. I used to own one in 375H&H and asked Krieghoff aboutt using Barnes Banded Solids, since I had good experience with them in my bolt action. Part of their answer to me is listed below. For me that answer is good enough, and I will use the Barnes solids if they shoot well in my rifle.


"I would not hesitate to use them if you have good success and they are
grouping in your Double.
Best regards and I keep my fingers crossed for your Buff-Hunt.

Yours sincerely,

Michael Steinmetz for
H.Krieghoff GmbH

Ard,

I'm happy with the erformance of the 458wm, at 2145fps with 500's or 2220fps with the 450's, so there is no wish on my part to rechamber.

458wm ammo is ubiquitous in Africa. I have barrowed ammo, in the filed there, while hunting, when I was running low on solids. Never had to use the barrowed amo, but carried it my belt.

I have also bought and borrowed 375H&H ammo while on safari.

11 lbs of ammo is really pretty thin when longer safaris are the plan.

I also have a double in 375H&H. Its relatively new to me and I haven't worked with it much yet. Looking forward to though, when its conversion to left hand is complete.

I considered rechambering my rifle to 450NE 3 1/4", but because of its performance as a 458wm, both in terms of ballistics and in terms of perfect function in extraction and ejection, I decided against it. Finding 450NE ammmo in the bush would be unlikely in the extreme.

If I were to ever rechamber my rifle, though, it would be to 450NE 3 1/4", which leaves more steel. And Hornaday makes bullets, brass and loads ammo.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Litespeed:
I might bring old news to you, but I got a little lost in the discussion between JPK and Ard Anyway... I have owned a couple of doubles, but then mostly new ones. I am currently waiting for a Krieghoff in 500NE. I used to own one in 375H&H and asked Krieghoff aboutt using Barnes Banded Solids, since I had good experience with them in my bolt action. Part of their answer to me is listed below. For me that answer is good enough, and I will use the Barnes solids if they shoot well in my rifle.


"I would not hesitate to use them if you have good success and they are
grouping in your Double.
Best regards and I keep my fingers crossed for your Buff-Hunt.

Yours sincerely,

Michael Steinmetz for
H.Krieghoff GmbH

Finally, something from Krieghoff!

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by Litespeed:
I might bring old news to you, but I got a little lost in the discussion between JPK and Ard Anyway... I have owned a couple of doubles, but then mostly new ones. I am currently waiting for a Krieghoff in 500NE. I used to own one in 375H&H and asked Krieghoff aboutt using Barnes Banded Solids, since I had good experience with them in my bolt action. Part of their answer to me is listed below. For me that answer is good enough, and I will use the Barnes solids if they shoot well in my rifle.


"I would not hesitate to use them if you have good success and they are
grouping in your Double.
Best regards and I keep my fingers crossed for your Buff-Hunt.

Yours sincerely,

Michael Steinmetz for
H.Krieghoff GmbH

Finally, something from Krieghoff!

Hi Dave and Litespeed,

I throw myself upon my own sword regarding the wordiness. Guilty as charged. I'll try to keep a tight lid on it for awhile.

Regarding your .500 Kriegoff, I have always wanted to try that cartridge, as well as some others from the old ivory hunting years, just out of curiosity.
"Pondoro" Taylor wrote of the .500 Jeffery Mauser cartridge as having no appreciable recoil. I'd have to see that to believe it. By the way, my favorite PH likes the Kriegoff cocking feature, that way his so armed client can carry the rifle loaded and he does not have to worry quite as much about them stumbling along behind him. He tells me he is constantly amazed how many clients show up with little or no experience on the rifle they bring for their first trip to his neck of the woods. I guess some guys are just wanting to kill things and are not much interested in rifles and cartridges. I don't get that but, whatever.

Well any way,
Cheers.
Ard.

quote:

Originally posted by Ard:

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Litespeed:
I might bring old news to you, but I got a little lost in the discussion between JPK and Ard Anyway... I have owned a couple of doubles, but then mostly new ones. I am currently waiting for a Krieghoff in 500NE. I used to own one in 375H&H and asked Krieghoff aboutt using Barnes Banded Solids, since I had good experience with them in my bolt action. Part of their answer to me is listed below. For me that answer is good enough, and I will use the Barnes solids if they shoot well in my rifle.


"I would not hesitate to use them if you have good success and they are
grouping in your Double.
Best regards and I keep my fingers crossed for your Buff-Hunt.

Yours sincerely,

Michael Steinmetz for
H.Krieghoff GmbH

Finally, something from Krieghoff!

Regardless of what one employee of one rifle maker says, I personally would not use them in a rifle of mine. That employee may be in for some concern for his possition when someone sends them a rifle with the barrels seperated from the ribs, along with a copy of that letter from Mr. Steinmetz!

quote:

Hi dave,

I throw myself upon my own sword regarding the wordiness. Guilty as charged. I'll try to keep a tight lid on it for awhile.

Regarding your .500 Kriegoff, I have always wanted to try that cartridge, as well as some others from the old ivory hunting years, just out of curiosity.
"Pondoro" Taylor wrote of the .500 Jeffery Mauser cartridge as having no appreciable recoil. I'd have to see that to believe it. By the way, my favorite PH likes the Kriegoff cocking feature, that way his so armed client can carry the rifle loaded and he does not have to worry quite as much about them stumbling along behind him. He tells me he is constantly amazed how many clients show up with little or no experience on the rifle they bring for their first trip to his neck of the woods. I guess some guys are just wanting to kill things and are not much interested in rifles and cartridges. I don't get that but, whatever.

Well any way,
Cheers.
Ard.

The combi-cocker on the Krieghoff rifle is fine, and is about as safe to carry fully loaded as any rifle can be, However, the fact is many believe the Blaser combi-cocking system is the same system, and it is definitely not!

The K-gun re-cocks it's self when broken open for a re-loading after the rifle has been fired. All one has to do is close the rifle and fire the next two. This is another safety feature that is absent on the Blaser. The Blaser must be re-cocked if the barrels are opened for any reason, and this feature is not correctable, without a total re-designing of the combi-cocking system on the Blaser.

As far as the mono-metal solids, or so-called X-bullet with solid shanks, and without the pressure rings, like those on the GS Customs, or North Fork CPS, or FPS, are not worth the risk with any double rifle, new or old! The benefit derived from a solid without properly designed pressure rings is simply not sufficient reason to take the risk, if any benefit exists at all. Too many good solids and good quality controlled expanding bullets are available, without the risk involved. Others may do as it suits them, but I simply do not see the thought process of someone risking a barrel set for one bullet type! You may get by with it till you don't get by with it, and that may be when you need the rifle the most.

JPK

It is not necessary to use Nitro For Black "technology" in the 458 Wim Mag.

AS you know the reason for fillers in Nitro cases is because they are have very large internal capacity.

The NFB loads in my 2 British doubles provide from 1700 to 1850 fps.

In you 458 Win Mag double just start with a 300gr bullet and 50gr of IMR 4198, for @1850fps.

With a 400gr bullet try 56 gr of IMR 3031 for @1550fps to 60gr for @1760fps.

With cast bullets @300gr start with 32gr of IMR 4198 for @1450fps, for 400gr bullets start with @40gr of IMR 3031 for 1400fps.

I recon this discussion could go on forever, and in the end there is no correct answer

I have owned three Krieghoffs so far, and for me there is three important reasons: I can carry it "loaded" but absolutely safe, the trigger pull is amazing compared to other doubles, and the stock on the Big Five model fits me like a glove! Like many other I dream of and old classic double from a famous English maker, but i recon my wallet is not that deep

As I said I would probably use Barnes if available, and the maker and dealer have both confirmed for me that it is OK. It might be foolish, but someone has to makes the mistakes that other learn from

I am looking forward to test the 500 myself. First chance are in september, but then only for PG. Someone might think 500NE is a bit much for most PG, but I think it must be perfect