Before one is able to contribute to the following discussion, one has to believe the world has existed for billions of years. Sorry if that offends anyone here.

So, anyway I'm a bit of a science channel watcher and have always been amaized by the big bang and other stuff surounding it.

A lightyear is a measure of distance - the distance light will travel in one year.

now they are able to see items that are estimated to be about almost 14 billion light years away... these same scientists also estimate that the universe is only about 14 billion years old.

Here is the question that has been eating at me since I first heard these findings: How can it be that we are able to see so far away. In order to see that far, we or they had to have either traveled much faster than the speed of light for a fair amount of time inorder to get that far apart. The universe is still expanding but not anything close to the speed of light.

Sorry if this isn't the kind of stuff you guys talk about, but this is the closest forum I know of the have a discussion about it.

Later, Mark.

It's my understanding that if they can see something 14 billion light years away, then they are seeing light that happened 14 billion years ago. So where do you get the notion that the universe is expanding less than light speed? If they can see something 14 B LY away, it's further away than that by now?

Kind of like hearing a bullet thump near you, or zing by, then hearing the shot at a distance. Or mayby you have never been shot at?
It's one of those life incidents that focus your attention to what really matters. For example - the goal is that the guy who shot at you never hears the report of your rifle, because your bullet reached its mark faster than the speed of sound.

KB

Obviously Einstein was no Hot Rodder speed limits are made to be broken.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding_universe

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
It's my understanding that if they can see something 14 billion light years away, then they are seeing light that happened 14 billion years ago. So where do you get the notion that the universe is expanding less than light speed? If they can see something 14 B LY away, it's further away than that by now?

Kind of like hearing a bullet thump near you, or zing by, then hearing the shot at a distance. Or mayby you have never been shot at?
It's one of those life incidents that focus your attention to what really matters. For example - the goal is that the guy who shot at you never hears the report of your rifle, because your bullet reached its mark faster than the speed of sound.

KB

Thanks for partaking in the discussion. As I see it you are correct that you are actually seeing an image of what happened there 14 billion years ago. My problem comes from the Big Bang theory (which I do believe in) states that everything started out in an infinately small micro particle and expanded from there.

If Light speed is truely the cosmic spead limit than the absolute farthest two objects could be away is 14 billion light years.

Problem 1: we are not on the edge of the universe, we are in the middle of one of the galaxies.

Problem 2: We can see objects around 13.5 billion light years away.

proplem 3: The universe isn't expanding at the speed of light today. If it was, we wouldn't be able to see anything but ourselves and our neighbors that are traveling at that speed with us.

OH, as I was replying, I though of something else that may explain some of it. At the moment prior to the big bang, infanantly small infanately dense particles would emit an infanately strong gravitational field (I think) so that could have distorted the fabric of space time so when the big bang happened hyper expansion of space could have occured throwing the whole thing out of wack

kinda mind blowing.

quote:

Originally posted by britz:
Problem 1: we are not on the edge of the universe, we are in the middle of one of the galaxies.

Not true. Our solar system is located on a far out arm of the Milky Way galaxy. A black hole occupies the center, as it seems most all other galaxies.

quote:

Originally posted by The Specialist:
Obviously Einstein was no Hot Rodder speed limits are made to be broken.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding_universe

Interesting info in this link. thanks.

"It is suggested that in this time the metric itself changed exponentially, causing space to change from smaller than an atom to around 100 million light years across." (first tiny fraction of a second of our universe's existence)

Good point, but The milkyway isn't necessarily on the edge of the univers is it?

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:

quote:

Originally posted by britz:
Problem 1: we are not on the edge of the universe, we are in the middle of one of the galaxies.

Not true. Our solar system is located on a far out arm of the Milky Way galaxy. A black hole occupies the center, as it seems most all other galaxies.

II Peter, chapter 3): (II Peter 3:8-10, NIV)

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

Distance surely can be thought of here also. The expansion of space, but not of matter.

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:
II Peter, chapter 3): (II Peter 3:8-10, NIV)

Distance surely can be thought of here also. The expansion of space, but not of matter.

Not sure what you are getting at here???

Just that both space and time are apparently not fixed, and that some folks appear to have had these thoughts (at least regarding time) before this era. Not trying to be too deep, or to convert anybody, or to argue with the science, just intrigued by the idea of the expansion of space. It's such a complicated subject, it's difficult for me to make an intelligent statement without seeming bumfuzzled beyond hope, particuliarly when using "sentences" without verbs.. The wikipedia article on metric expansion was well done, IMHO.

I will agree 100% that it is a very "deep" and befumbling thing to think about...but that's what makes it fun

I will admit to having more faith in science than in the bible. Admiting that there are still gaps in the science, but to me, it just seems on the right path.

An interesting aside is the way we are able to have faith in the scientists' explanation that 14 billion years ago, the universe expanded in less than the blink of an eye from something so small as to be invisible to 100 million light years across, with instantaneous "movement" of the entire mass of the universe--except maybe the mass never moved, just space expanded. Nevertheless, it seems the only explanation, doesn't it?


And would that tiny speck not fit our idea of a black-hole?

Except there was no space outside of itself for it to distort??

I guess the way I understand it, every galaxy has a black hole, some are much much larger called super massive black holes. A black hole is a colapsed star with a very very dense core and it has a gravatational field so great that light photons can not escape its grasp once it has reached the event horizon.

I also understand that some entire galaxies have been consumed by such beasts. Once they all combine back to one extra super dooper black hole (lol) that it's mass will be infinately dense and the gravity will be infinitly strong as to have everything condenced into the primortial atom again. And the cycle will start over again. Fun stuff!

Regarding space and "nothingness":

Is there a void where no gravitational or electro-magnetic fields exist? By definition they would be undetectable, and would be that which exists outside what we consider as the universe? Does the existence of a space where these fields do exist require the presence of matter in some way?

The "space" that is outside any gravitational or electromagnetic field would be, IMHUEO (in my humble uneducated opionion) beyond the universe. The problem is that gravity reduces exponentially with distance, therefore it can never be absolute Zero.

Hey guys, I hope we have a physics professor to "shed some light" Initially, at the big bang, there was inflation of the universe, followed by expansion. Remember, 14 billion light years is the edge of the observable universe in one direction. It keeps going to 14 billion years in the other direction and we cannot see beyond that distance. It is bigger than most people think because we can only see so far. Do a google search about the great attractor and the observable universe and it confuses the educated, logical mind. The universe and physics involved do not maake common sense, yet that is the way it is.
How do you like your physics, Newton or Einstein?

One thing to remember about estimated dates is they always get older as more information comes in. Doesn't matter if you are looking at the emergence of modern humans, human occupation of North/South America or the age of the Universe, by year after next you can safely add 5-10%.

quote:

Originally posted by britz:
The "space" that is outside any gravitational or electromagnetic field would be, IMHUEO (in my humble uneducated opionion) beyond the universe. The problem is that gravity reduces exponentially with distance, therefore it can never be absolute Zero.

The trouble you run into here is one of language.

"space" is "something" void is "nothing" and how are you to detect that.

It's a bit like the mathematical concept of zero, you are above asking "can zero exist?" the answer is "yes, it exists in your mind".

void is a concepts, defined by lack rather that characteristics.

Regards,

Gh

And what property does space have that differentiates it from the void? Is it just that it is detectable by having something--matter or energy-- pass though it?

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:
And what property does space have that differentiates it from the void? Is it just that it is detectable by having something--matter or energy-- pass though it?

Steve,

I think the two problems are that "space" in most usages refers to the almost absolute inter-stellar vacuum that exists in the observable universe.

"Void" as britz rather nicely characterises as the absence of all else, eg matter and energy, is an abstract concept in my opinion.

If there is "space" with nothing in it, the "void" it would be outside of our universe by virtue of our current understanding of electro-magnetism, ie that field strength is proportional to distance cubed.

Ie. as britz points out there is no point in the universe where, for example, gravity is nil.

On a micro scale and a micro-timeline it may well be possible to find a chunk of space with no particulate matter, a conventional void, but it would not be free of electromagnetic radiation.

Being bound to our universe precludes us "detecting" a void, apart from theoretical infrence.

This all flows back to the question of what is "outside" the universe, what is the universe "expanding into" etc.

The precedeing is why those questions are effectively unaswerable at the moment.

REgards,

GH

if space has an defined end and is continously expanding, what is then outside of the space?

How can a man know the ways of God?

Practice, practice, practice.