Kb--Validation? I need validation to confirm what I have done,seen done? Another interesting concept-like so many of yours. You keep trying to make a point of the 50% finishing shot when there is no point. I shoot deer--go directly to it, if any sign of life I finish it. Don't keep records--it's either dead or alive so I call it 50-50. It doesn't matter where hit or with what---many are still showing signs of life that shouldn't be. My latest wildcat "Keyboard Special" is still at the gunsmiths--haven't picked it up yet. I can tell you have had yours awhile and have it well tuned. BTW that brilliant quote of "consistant perfection does that to a guy,even if it's in his dreams" would probably sound more intellectual if you spelled it consistent.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
CM, I think when you started all those 223 threads, that you were trolling. At least for validation - and you ain't gonna find that here, at least not from me.



KB

He did find that here,just not from you. Like anyone gives a **** what you think anyway. I've tried as others to just get you to consider a possible different perspective. I'm done

Its not legal in my state, however ive heard people discussing eskimos killing polar bears with 5.56 ARs.

Looks like maybe near 50% of folks voting tend to agree that the use of the 223 on deer is not ethical.

The main reason I think it's not ethical is because there are so many who don't know or care where the threshold is of reasonable expectations for the cartridge. So, I'm not looking at it on an individal basis, but in the big picture. Since there is so much BS surrounding the cartridge, which the facts don't support, I think there are a lot of people who are just intentionally ignorant, and some are even proud of it. It's a cartridge that just seems to appeal to idiots. Obviously everyone who uses it isn't an idiot, but it sure seems like a lot are. Just a theory.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
The main reason I think it's not ethical is because there are so many who don't know or care where the threshold is of reasonable expectations for the cartridge. KB

The BS is singling out this one cartridge for your arguments. What you just said is TRUE of every cartridge.

I suspect a majority of African PH's would agree that there is less margin for error with the 458 Mag on elephant then there is on the 223 for deer or impala yet nobody is arguing it's unethical to shoot elephant with the 458!

BTW I tend to think it's the super duper magnums that appeal to the real idiots. Those who know nothing, don't want to learn and think that by shooting bigger, faster and louder they can shoot further and kill better.

What kills is shot placement not the cartridge and that is 100% operator. Substituting larger and faster bullets doesn't change that fact.

I dont think singling out this one cartrige is BS since it seems to be the cartrige of choice for most of the d-bag unethical hunters,

Sorry, my post was intended to say that a large bullet WILL produce more trama. I fixed it.

Thanks for pointing my mistake out, Teancum. In your usual polite manner. I guess you build up a lot of hostilities on your job as Asst. Night Manager at the 7/11. As posted, this has been a pretty polite thread. But then, you staggered in.

CM, if you'll read my very first post, you'll see what I think about using a .223 for deer hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Sorry, my post was intended to say that a large bullet WILL produce more trama. I fixed it.

Thanks for pointing my mistake out, Teancum. In your usual polite manner. I guess you build up a lot of hostilities on your job as Asst. Night Manager at the 7/11. As posted, this has been a pretty polite thread. But then, you staggered in.

Your very welcome. I got home earlier tonight as the Slurpee machine ran out........

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
When I lived in WV, I knew several wood hicks that routinely took their deer with .223s and .222s. They didn't use the tricked-out, AR "platforms" but rather their rifles were 788s, 340s and the like. Open sights or low end scopes, price and powerwise. Their bullet of choice was a 55gr Rem Corelokt. I know because I reloaded for some of them.
If someone came into the store bragging about how far away he'd killed a deer, they'd just smile and assume the fellow didn't know too much about hunting. I doubt that any of these guys had ever shot a deer at even 100 yards.
Even though these men were good and reliable hunters, I was still reluctant to jump on the .224 bullet bandwagon for the simple reason that when someone comes in here and asks,"Can I kill a deer with a .223?", it opens up a can of worms. If you say "Oh, hell yes, Grandpaw Pettybone killed Wooly mamouths with his", every wannabe around is gonna grab his "platform" and head for the woods, spraying and praying.
I admit that with the changes in twist and the advances in bullets, I have changed my mind somewhat. I think that the .223 has moved up in lethalness to at least equal to the .243 but I still consider it a cartridge for the cool-headed, careful hunter that will respect it's limitations.
In the FWIW department, I think a fellow that buys his kid some cheap-assed, single shot .223 or .410 and "takes him hunting" ain't doing the kid any favors.

That is a good post wasbeeman.

I doubt the 223 can ever be as good as the 243 for deer, no mater what advances are made. The best way to make a 223 more lethal is to use something like the 62gr TSX, and respect its limitations.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
The main reason I think it's not ethical is because there are so many who don't know or care where the threshold is of reasonable expectations for the cartridge. KB

The BS is singling out this one cartridge for your arguments. What you just said is TRUE of every cartridge.

I suspect a majority of African PH's would agree that there is less margin for error with the 458 Mag on elephant then there is on the 223 for deer or impala yet nobody is arguing it's unethical to shoot elephant with the 458!

BTW I tend to think it's the super duper magnums that appeal to the real idiots. Those who know nothing, don't want to learn and think that by shooting bigger, faster and louder they can shoot further and kill better.

What kills is shot placement not the cartridge and that is 100% operator. Substituting larger and faster bullets doesn't change that fact.

Howard, I hate to even respond directly to your posts, because I think you are the kind who will always come up with something, some justification, no matter what. However, I do agree with some (most) of the things you say, especially about the sooper dooper magnums, and to some extent shot placment. After all, who can argue shot placment?

Those long range shooting of big game, shown on the outdoor shows primarily to sell guns, is another peeve of mine. I dispise those shows, and the ideas they promote.

I have magnums, and use them, and enjoy them, but they are not for long range. I would much prefer my 7x57 for almost all, and if I didn't hunt deer on the big bear's turf, I would just get rid of the magnums. My 458 is different. I have really enjoyed shooting reduced loads, and playing with it. I readily admit that hunting medium game with it is a stunt, of sorts, but I'm having fun. It's certainly not boreing. I would rather have spent the money on the 458 with the custom throat than I would on a 223, since I believe the 458 is more useful, just for fun, if nothing more.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Howard, I hate to even respond directly to your posts, because I think you are the kind who will always come up with something, some justification, no matter what. KB

Not intending to justify anything besides you agree with me right?

Actually seems to me the anti 223 crowd is the one trying to come up with any and all justification to support their contentions regardless of the fact they have never even tried it and have only their arm chair expertise to support their contentions. Pretty much just like most of the pro 223 crowd. LOL

Never shot a deer with a 223 doubt I ever will.

Wasbeeman--Those guys using 55 grain Corelokts knew what they were doing. You mentioned the .223 being equal to .243---by chance did you try to talk those guys that were using Corelokts into a heavier premium bullet? (If so that was an if it aint broke don't fix it deal). "Don't buy your kid a cheap assed single shot .223" Is the solution get an expensive one or perhaps even an auto--full auto if you have license? Also dont buy them .410--perhaps 12 guage magnum?

So if some mentioned that the 223 with heavier bullets is the equal of a 243 then the 22-250 with a fast twist and heavier bullet is better then a 243 or 6mm Rem???

quote:

Originally posted by Howard:
Not intending to justify anything besides you agree with me right?

Actually seems to me the anti 223 crowd is the one trying to come up with any and all justification to support their contentions regardless of the fact they have never even tried it and have only their arm chair expertise to support their contentions. Pretty much just like most of the pro 223 crowd. LOL

Never shot a deer with a 223 doubt I ever will.

I probably got it all wrong about you. Sorry about that. I didn't go back and read all your past posts.

The thing about my contentions and not using a 223 is kind of a conundrum, becsuse I'm not going to buy one just to find out what I figure I already know. Besides, if I did buy one, and use it for deer and wasn't happy with it, I would still get no respect from some anyway. They would just say I couldn't shoot well, made poor shot placment, couldn't track, or whatever. In other words it wouldn't matter if all I had used thus far was a 223, those who have their minds made up would just cheer me on if I agreed with them, and dismiss me if I disagreed, and keep on doing what they have been doing anyway.

So, that leaves me some choices. Don't fret it. Discuss with those willing to discuss. Debate with those who disagree. There have to be some who are undecided on the topic, and perhaps open minded for info, rather than BS. Some people are reasonable, me for example.

Really, sorting out the BS from good info isn't too difficult. All a guy has to do is run the numbers, look at the ballistic tables, do the math. If a proponant of the 223 says such-snd-such, and it meets the reasonable test and reconciles with the numbers, it's probably good info. If it doesn't reconcile reasonably and mathmatically, then it's probably BS. Most people are totally able to figure that out. The first clue that someone values BS more than good info, and isn't willing or able to sort out the difference, is when he ignores or dismisses the math, and starts in on the "experience" thingy.

Surely even idiots can understand that if conventional wisdom has established over time what's a base line for a good deer rifle, that wisdom was based foremost on experience, far greater than I'll ever achieve, especially on any one given cartridge. They not only did the math, but they went out and tried it, then did the math again. I'm pretty sure that I don't have to go through what they went through, trial and error and all, to find comfort and assurance in relying on their advice.

There are other sure BS give-aways, such as advocating varmint bullets, FMJ or match bullets, ranges longer than about 150yds. Using it as a starter rifle for children is another one that's a sure indication of ignorance and low ethics. It's really not too difficult to read the clues. It could be that some have to actually make mistakes themselves, rather than learn from the mistakes of others. It's a bit trickier with the 223, because there seems to be lots of guys who don't believe they are making mistakes, even when they are in the midst of it. They talk big, and appear to know what they are talking about, so that's why the clues have to be paid attention to. It's what they do, rather than what they say, kind of thing.

That's the best advice I can give to those who may be fence straddlers on this. Figure it out yourself. If you need a rifle in your hands to do that, humm, well it's your time and money. I don't believe that I need 223 trigger time to figure it out, and predict my dissatisfaction with a 223, as a deer rifle. If I shot varmints, I would probably be happy with it.

KB

Kabluey--You are coming along fair with your skill. That skill being when you don't know what you are talking about--dazzle em with bullshit. Fair--but polishing and honing needed. You are good enough that you believe it. You'll know you have arrived when you can convince those that have been there done that. Here comes the bees again---till then I'll keep believing bumblebees can fly.

Smokinj---Yes Joe, going to heavier bullet and premium bullet increases their ability drastically. (As if a deer is going to know if the bullet going through their heart had 1000 lbs of energy or not. And for sure they are going to be overwhelmed that it is a premium bullet going through their heart/lungs/liver--if not it wont kill them)But you keep doing that all the way up --heavier bullet and premium bullet and by the time you get to a .300 mag you can sink battleships 3 miles away. A .223 not using premium bullets wont even kill a prarie dog.

I'm sure we all remember the funny lines "You may be a redneck - if ____"

Here's another one. If three of the statments are true, then it shifts from "you may be" to "you are". If four or more of the statments are true, then you are an idiot also.

You may be an unethical BS artist, if:

You hunt deer with a 223
You use varmint bullets on deer
You use match bulets on deer
You shoot at deer with a 223 at ranges > 150yds
You claim a high success rate
you claim 50% need finishing shots, and think that's normal
You encourage children to follow your example
You believe a 223 is a good starter deer rifle for children
You argue using points that are not relevant
You claim one must use a 223 on deer before his opinion is valid
You argue that observation, common sense and accepted wisdom doesn't count re the 223
You ignore the math
You believe kinetic energy doesn't apply in the realm of the 223
You believe it's all about shot placment
You don't know that you are a BS artist (because if you know, then you are simply a phony)

Also, tacticool is part of your vocabulary

Yea add to the list--You use Kabluewy as your handle

Nah it's Kablowyou.

Wow!! Is that what the new Ruger looks like when it's "dressed"??

CM, you mention a deer wouldn't know if it was a premium bullet going through it's heart, etc, etc.

I don't think -actually I know-- that it doesn't take a whole lot to kill a 100# WT but let's talk about some biiig, fat, winter-ready mulie or WT from up north. The bullet has to go through a winter thickened layer of hair and hide, a inch or so of suet, a rib bone like you'd find on a yearling heifer before it gets to the lungs or heart. Let's assume you hit it in the lungs --everybody seems to think that will give you a DRT result, I think differently-- and it runs off. Where's this blood trail folks talk about?? Even if the bullet slips in between two ribs, goes through the lungs, and slips out on the other side between two ribs, with the winter coat your blood trail just isn't gonna be.
You do have to plan for less than stellar results.

"...and while the sun and moon endure,
lucks a chance bur trouble's sure.
I'll face it as a wise man would,
and train for ill and not for good...
(with apologies to AE Houseman)

You may be an unethical BS artist, if:

You hunt deer with a 223
You use varmint bullets on deer
You use match bulets on deer
You shoot at deer with a 223 at ranges > 150yds
You claim a high success rate
you claim 50% need finishing shots, and think that's normal
You encourage children to follow your example
You believe a 223 is a good starter deer rifle for children
You argue using points that are not relevant
You claim one must use a 223 on deer before his opinion is valid
You ignore the math
You don't know that you are a BS artist

KB, you forgot to mention headshots.

Joe A.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wasbeeman:
CM, you mention a deer wouldn't know if it was a premium bullet going through it's heart, etc, etc.

I don't think -actually I know-- that it doesn't take a whole lot to kill a 100# WT but let's talk about some biiig, fat, winter-ready mulie or WT from up north. The bullet has to go through a winter thickened layer of hair and hide, a inch or so of suet, a rib bone like you'd find on a yearling heifer before it gets to the lungs or heart. Let's assume you hit it in the lungs --everybody seems to think that will give you a DRT result, I think differently-- and it runs off. Where's this blood trail folks talk about?? Even if the bullet slips in between two ribs, goes through the lungs, and slips out on the other side between two ribs, with the winter coat your blood trail just isn't gonna be.
You do have to plan for less than stellar results.

QUOTE]

quote:

You claim a high success rate

And now your back to posting like a dumbass Kabluey, and I dont usually call names!
The only catridge I have 100% with, no lost deer, and I count lost as one not found until the next day and spoiled or eaten by yotes, is, yes, a .223. I'm talking kids here by the way. other calibers used by kids with the same distance restrictions and shot angles ect as the .223. 243, 270, 7/08 and .308, those calibers have all lost deer, mostly due to flinching, the .270 kid had shot one deer with it before, muffed a 30 yd shot, hit in the guts and I couldnt find it until the next day as I ran out of light on multi colored, fall leaves on the ground. The .223 is a mini MKX I have cut to fit a small kid, they have all shot it well and arent afraid of it. I would guess 20 deer to it's credit give or take a couple. The other calibers have about that as a total with at least one lost per caliber. It is total bullshit to say it cant have a high % of one shot kills.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
1. And now your back to posting like a dumbass Kabluey,
2. The only catridge I have 100% with, no lost deer, yes, a .223.
3. I'm talking kids here by the way.
4. other calibers used by kids with the same distance restrictions and shot angles ect as the .223. 243, 270, 7/08 and .308, those calibers have all lost deer,
5. mostly due to flinching, the .270 kid had shot one deer with it before, muffed a 30 yd shot, hit in the guts and I couldnt find it until the next day as I ran out of light on multi colored, fall leaves on the ground.
6. The .223 is a mini MKX I have cut to fit a small kid, they have all shot it well and arent afraid of it. I would guess 20 deer to it's credit
7. It is total bullshit to say it cant have a high % of one shot kills.

I count 7, three or four may meet the reasonableness test. That leaves three or four that are pretty questionable. If the shoe fits ---.

Which is the higher priority?
Matching the rifle/cartridge to the kid and/or his fear/skill level? (Target shooting at range / deer shooting = different scenerio)
or
Matching the rifle/cartridge to the game?

Those so-called managed recoil loads make far more sense to me than messing with a pea shooter 223. Range time, and growing a little will soon build confidence in a kid. I've always figured that if a kid can't shoot a 243 well, (at the range with hearing protection) he isn't big enough or skilled enough to be deer hunting.

KB

Good post KB.

quote:

I count 7, three or four may meet the reasonableness test. That leaves three or four that are pretty questionable. If the shoe fits ---.

what in hell are you talking about here?

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
what in hell are you talking about here?

The post wasn't intended to get into a conversation with you, but instead - about your points of advocacy for the 223.

It's not personal, but abstract and conceptual, like where is the bar or line, and how does one know when he has crossed over.

You figure it out. It was to cause others to think about it, using your post as an example. One clue - there are usually no absolute and perfectly clear answers to ethical questions.

For example, some readers may be thinking - It's only a deer, which will probably become road-kill anyway, and mess up someone's nice car in the process, or et by coyotes before spring. Heck, kill um with a slingshot, if that's what you want. What difference does it make?

Another example, "harvesting" deer method, a guy could put a heavy bumper and grill guard on the front of his pickup, and drive around at night on backroads, and run over deer with his truck. Then load them up, drive home, and salvage whatever meat that wasn't mangled. Now, that's true road hunting. To some, perhaps even that isn't unethical, just efficient. Heck, take the wife and kids along to fetch the beer from the cooler and dispose of the empty cans, and make it a family outing.

I can see the bumper sticker now: "Family, an American tradition - a family that road hunts together, stays together."

KB

In the infinate wisdom of Kabluey,
a rifle at the range that is big enough by some math equasion, that a kid doesnt shoot well, will work fine when shot at game.
A rifle that is proven to kill deer, that is shot well at the range will not.
it's a good thing I read your posts to learn these things!

quote:

Which is the higher priority?
Matching the rifle/cartridge to the kid or
Matching the rifle/cartridge to the game?

This is the entire point.

Seems most of the pea shooter proponents are only concerned about the consequences on the butt end of the rifle, not the downrange end.

quote:

Seems most of the pea shooter proponents are only concerned about the consequences on the butt end of the rifle, not the downrange end.

RC, please show me where in my posts on the subject you can point out the failures? I teach shot placement, use of a rest or shooting sticks at all times for younger shooters, limited range and have yet to have a failure useing my choice for them and my conditions. I have very excited, happy kids who go on to love the outdoors and hunting.
you like to brag about your credentials, in the town I live in I can give you the phone numbers to the stores, garage, postoffice etc. If you call any of them and ask who people go to for gun/hunting help, I'll give you three guesses who's name they say.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
1. I teach shot placement,
2. use of a rest or shooting sticks at all times for younger shooters,
3. limited range and have yet to have a failure useing my choice for them and my conditions.
4. I have very excited, happy kids who go on to love the outdoors and hunting.

Bonus points = 4
Extra credit for the last one = 2.



I'm not saying I am conceding the use of 223 on deer. I'm just saying that everything has balance, and IMO overall your statments meet the reasonable test. After all has been said, and hashed, perhaps it's not the use of the 223 on deer, per se, but all the BS that seems to go with it. Sorting through that is a challange. I'm not sure yet that the BS surrounding the 223 can be distinguished from the cartridge.

KB

It's a "round and round we go" discussion as always with this topic.

There are better choices of cartridges for deer and you know it whether or not you'd admit it.

My "credentials" are what they are and I avoid discussing them here much less "bragging" about them.

Unless you are shooting 80# dogs and deer at under 100 yards, the .223 is unethical. Some here say they would use it at 350 yards on deer

PITIFUL AND PATHETIC

quote:

Unless you are shooting 80# dogs and deer at under 100 yards, the .223 is unethical. Some here say they would use it at 350 yards on deer

and at deer dressing out at 350 pounds....(are you folks from Minnesota paying attention?)

Here's the "big picture view" that I'm referring to in the initial post of this thread. The last voting option.

Again I say, the 223 is a known and measurable item/quantity. We know it is marginal for deer, and making it into something it is not, is where the BS starts.

What makes a cartridge a "deer cartridge"?
Simply using it for that purpose?
Or because the cartridge has specific characteristics deemed intrinsically (per se) sufficient for the purpose which it is to serve?

With that focus, perhaps boiling it down is useful.
Is the 223 a deer cartridge, per se?
Can it serve the purpose of taking deer ethically?
Is that making it into something it is not?
If the answers are no, yes (or maybe), and yes, then the BS starts by using the 223 for deer hunting.

KB

quote:

Unless you are shooting 80# dogs and deer at under 100 yards, the .223 is unethical.

always at less then 125 yds, always broadside, always standing and 140-175# field dressed. I have only recovered 2 bullets that lodged against the off shoulder after breaking the near, the rest exited. To think that it doesnt work fine under those conditions shows you need to do more hunting.

quote:

I'm not saying I am conceding the use of 223 on deer. I'm just saying that everything has balance, and IMO overall your statments meet the reasonable test.

And that is all I'm looking for you to recognize.
So far of all the kids I've started my way, they have gone on to come test a number of my rifles and cartridges and choose one that worked for them. Some chose a 243, others with bear, moose in mind go heavyer. None have stayed with .223 past the learning and getting hooked stage as I told them they dont know where or what they will be hunting in the future.

I don't think the 223 is the right deer cartridge for most people but for some it is very acceptable. My hunting time is limited to Saturdays and a day or two around Thanksgiving and Christmas so I hunt primarily with a 25-06 with 100gr Sierra's or 100gr Barnes TSX. I want to be able to take the shot presented no matter what the angle. My hunting partner is a taxidermist and takes off the entire season to hunt. He almost exclusively hunts with a 223. I load 63gr Sierra's for when he hunts open areas and I have worked up a load using 55gr TBBC's for use in thickets and cutovers. Both loads shoot to the same point of aim at 100yds. This evening he shot a doe on the other side of a cutover at 200yds and dropped it in her tracks. He shot it right where the spine and the front of the rib cage come together (his favorite shot placement). That's probably the longest shot I can remember him taking with the 223. We have never lost a deer with the 223, but shot placement and bullet choice are what we focus on.