The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Small Calibers Shooting deer with 223 - ethicalGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Shooting deer with 223 - ethical | Login/Join |
| One of Us |
Scottfromdallas--Is that place you are "hunting" called Forrest Park? Nah can't be that's the zoo--well maybe it is. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Scottfromdallas--yes when you hunt wild animals sometimes and I'd say almost half the time it might take a finishing shot. I have found this to be true regardless of where hit and with what. I have asked you several times what round will put them down EVERTIME and not require a finishing shot? Nevermind. I am shooting them in the wild not in a pen. Possibly penned animals that you can walk right up to can be killed dead evrytime. | |||
|
| One of Us |
kabluewy--I never said 50% with .223. I said ALL sizes. Believe it was you that shot the jaw off one. | |||
|
One of Us |
Samo Samo 223 BS . . . It will do and has done the job for many years, if the "IFs" are considered and in the right hands. But, you don't do any favors to push cf 22's as deer cartridges to any and all hunters . . . Anyway, lotsa deer been shot with 22 rimfires so the 223 is way overkill. I'll stick with a 243 minimal to the average hunters and let the 'experts' stick with their 223's, but they shouldn't be going around bragging to the world that a 223 is all that is ever required, as if the smaller the better, hexx then get your pellet guns out and put a real brag up! Waidmannsheil, Dom. -------- There are those who only reload so they can shoot, and then there are those who only shoot so they can reload. I belong to the first group. Dom --------- | |||
|
one of us |
KB, I have explained how I use this cartridge in great detail. The bullets I choose and the distances I employ it at. I have other rifles chambered in cartridges that certainly increase the effective range I hunt at. I took a nice 8pnt last week at a lasered 364yds with a .264WM. The conditions were perfect and it was an easy shot. I could fill up the freezer in the first week of hunting season with that rifle if I choose to. That said, had I been using the .223 that day the deer would have never been shot at and we would have both parted ways. Him none the wiser and me not too disappointed. If I had the .223 and he got within 150yds I would have taken him and done it with complete confidence. Now, if the closest shot at this deer was at 500yds and I had the .264WN it would have been the same scenario as the .223 at 364yds I wouldn't have taken the shot because I wouldn't be confident in the outcome. I've never said it was the best, only very effective when used to it's strengths. I know it works from real experience with it and I enjoy using it. Responsibility is something that must be exercised with ALL cartridges and conditions -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
|
one of us |
Just what we needed, another damn .223 deer thread. I see that the usual players on both sides didn't take long to start pissing on one another....  There is room for all of God's creatures....right next to the mashed potatoes. http://texaspredatorposse.ipbhost.com/   | |||
|
| one of us |
Grumpy  -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
|
One of Us |
I guess I have more confidence in the 223 Remington than you do. There is little doubt that if thus armed with one of sufficient accuracy, I would have used it to take the 364 yard shot of which you speak. | |||
|
| one of us |
You probably do. My longest to date was right at 125yds. At one time I was very anti .223 for deer hunting myself. Not as militant as some here but didn't think it was a good option. After reading some of the experience of others and keeping an open mind about the subject I decided to give it a try and was very surprised at the results. John Barsness once wrote he felt comfortable with it out to 200yds with good bullets so I've sort of held to that rule for myself. Inside of 150yds I have complete confidence in the round as long as I wait for the right shot opportunity to present itself. I enjoy using the round and those are the limits I impose on myself. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
|
One of Us |
Just my own personal opinion: I thought the poll was worded pretty well, although I would have worded it differently in places and I would have added some different choices, but I could probably say that about any poll. The problem with the poll and the thread in general is that it deals with such a controversial subject, where emotions run so high, with some, that it dredges up strong feelings of animosity that have built up from so many previous threads on this subject. I won't tell you how I voted, but I will say that I was a little surprised at the results of the poll up to this point. So, from that standpoint, it has been enlightening. I think you mentioned that this was your first poll--don't be too discouraged at the negative posts, but you really did stir people up. If your relatively new to AR Forums, please stay with us!  Red C. Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion. | |||
|
One of Us |
BTW, redc, I've been in this rodeo before. 
Terry, I actually thought that was a good quote, but I was messing with you about the democrat stuff. You might be interested to know that I'm sending the results of this poll to Mr. Oboma to see if he can save us from ourselves.  I just chose Chuck Hawks as an example. I could have found dozens of other good sources, but I figured what I said would be dismissed anyway. It's only good for those who want to listen. I also thought your story about the 264 was excellent. It's the post that followed yours, typical 223 trash talk, that makes the case:
Back to your quote: Physics are FACTS too, and can be ignored, but they are still facts, regardless of who pulles the trigger, the amount of belief, or confidence. I looked this stuff at various sources, and I'll not waste words. .223 62gr TSX SD=.177, BC=.287 Range: muzz / 100 / 200 / 300 / 400 Veloc: 3050 / 2721 / 2414 / 2128 / 1863 ft lb: 1281 / 1019 / 802 / 623 / 478 Trejc: xxx / xxx / -1.9 / -10.5 / -26.8 22 hornet = 750 ft lbs at muzz 223 at 375 yds, approximate 500 ft lbs, about 2 ft drop, sighted in at 150 yds. Anyone who would take a shot at deer at 375 yds with a 223 is an idiot, and in denial of the facts. I'm thankful that you have sense enough to say that you wouldn't do that. But as you can readily see there are those who would, and brag about it. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
|
| One of Us |
Tc1--Two more good posts, I think you nailed things. There was a time that I too was against using .22 cal. But after seeing positive results several times, take a fool to not change their mind. I dont tout it as the best choice even now, but from experience will say I haven't seen anything that beats it. 100% is hard to beat. So far results I have seen are 100%. I have not seen ONE case where a deer got away that I think something larger would have changed the outcome. KB--You ask tell us more what about ALL those that you didn't get to make a shot on. As I have stated I am aware of almost all the hunting that goes on at this place--for over 25 years. Lots of my friends and family and friends of my son in law. I know of 3 deer that were hit but not recovered and very probably a 4th. (NONE were .22 cal) One was totally my fault--I jerked the shot. Cal not a factor. The second was one my son in law shot with a .243. We followed small spots of blood a long ways and never found the deer. Where hit--not known--obviously not very well hit. The third was shot by a youngster and I am almost positive he was using 7x57 ( next year we did find a carcass about half mile away that we THINK was that deer). The possible 4th one was a spike buck that both me and my grandson shot at with a .243 using cast bullets. I do think we both hit it, but not one drop of blood to be found. I blame that one on the bullet and will not use cast again. I am not putting down cast bullets--just in that size. Certainly a large cal heavy cast bullet works--but the accompanying rainbow trajectory and heavy recoil is nothing I want. I mentioned probably 50% need finishing shot---that is a wild guess--I really don't think that high--that is not 50% of those shot with .22cal. It is 50% of all. After I shoot one, I go directly to them and if still any sign of life I use a finishing shot. I have seen many deer with the damage done there should be no way it wasn't dead right now. I have seen them on their feet with both heart and liver shot. Again, if someone drops them dead right now everytime--please tell me about it(and I probably wont believe you). | |||
|
one of us |
Now they have me all upset about all the quail I probably wounded with inadequated shotguns. Not sure I can live with myself anymore. I'd eat a 223 but it probably wouldn't work.... "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
|
| One of Us |
 Reaching into safe and picking .223 Rem for a deer hunt = mistake, ethical error Starting any .223 deer thread = mistake, must be cold and dark in AK "A hunter should not choose the caliber, cartridge, and bullet that will kill an animal when everything is right; rather, he should choose ones that will kill the most efficiently when everything goes wrong." - Bob Hagel | |||
|
| One of Us |
So tell me, all you .223 and deer skeptics; would it be ethical to take a 400 yard shot at a deer with a 458 Lott? | |||
|
| One of Us |
Rcamuglia--"Reaching into safe and picking .223Rem for a deer hunt=mistake,ethical error". If you have posted any actual experience to confirm that--I missed it. I just watched a video you posted and enjoyed it--thanks. I'd be interested in hearing actual experience that is basis for the statement. I have stated I too was against using .223--but actual experience changed my mind. | |||
|
| One of Us |
| |||
|
| One of Us |
CM, All of the pro voters, keep saying "what's your experience?" Does this mean that everybody has to shoot a deer with a .223 before they can comment?? Seems that is what they are trying to avoid. Aim for the exit hole | |||
|
| One of Us |
"50% of the animals need a finishing shot regardless of calibre"  I am a born again heavy-for-calibre believer and I can probably count the number of "finishing" shots I've had to make on both hands and maybe have fingers left over. And to support RC, there is a lot of difference between less than perfect and gut shot but anyone that doesn't understand that a larger (slower) bullet does create more trama than a small one needs help. Aim for the exit hole | |||
|
| One of Us |
Wasbeeman--Yes, I do ask what is a persons actual experience. I can give that weight. Funny thing is none of the nays seem to have any experience so they are just giving an "opinion/theory". I was guilty of being a disbeliever when I based it on my opinion--which was false I learned from experience. It's like the theory that bumblbees cant fly. Great theory, but tell me what actual experience you have that bumblebees can't fly. Based on my experience I really believe they can, but the theory says they can't. KB--Your shooting an animal from end to end does not impress me in the least. Sausage on the hoof. I prefer to grind the meat into sausage with a meat grinder. Your opinion (IMO)is just that. My 50% ratio--which I told you was off top of head and probably not correct but I'll err on the high side does include about as many .308 cal as any. When you make a perfect shot--take out all their vitals and they still walk, like you stated I dont know how it happens nor what it would take to eliminate that. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Maybe I need to start using a "Keyboard Special" and eliminate finishing shots altogether. | |||
|
| One of Us |
CM, I'm just a little shy of thinking you are full of it, but there's always the benefit of some doubt, and besides, I don't want to be rude. I'll let you dig your own holes, and let others be the judge. It dosen't matter enough to me to really get into a real pissing match. I don't have to prove my "theory", whatever that is. It's real simple to me - enough vs. not enough. And the math provides me the basis to distinguish which it is - enuff or not. I'm a math kinda guy, and believe in facts. Others can believe in a fart into the wind - it's their opinion. I don't form opinions based on farts, but I will form an opinion based on facts and math, and stand by it regardless of whether I actually try it or not. I don't have to shoot a deer at 300 yds with a 223 to pretty much know what is most likely to happen. BTW, I have very little doubt that TC1 and I both can cleanly take deer with a 223, with a much better one-shot kills than 50%. The only difference is that TC1 chooses to use a 223, and I choose not to, mostly because I'm cheap, and I don't want to fork out the money for a limited use 223. Instead, I'm getting a 6.5 Grendel. Now you may say that's theory, because I'm predicting something that I've never specifically tried - shooting deer with a 223. However, my "theory" of being able to take deer with a 223 is based on several supporting facts, such as my experience with other cartridges, figuring the math, TC1 says so, and he has actual experience, and says he uses TSX 62gr, plus a little common sense. So, if I can predict clean kills, with reasonable confidence, why can't I predict a probable different outcome by just changing the facts and scenerio appropriately? To me this is not complicated at all. What makes it difficult is all the BS that's thrown in. As the famous line in cool hand Luke goes - "what we have here is a failure to communicate". mostly. The 223 is a known quantity, as a matter of fact. It is not a sum greater than the parts, no matter how much belief is thrown in. Change the bullet weight and speed, and figuring in the difference expected comparing a varmint bullet compared to a 62gr TSX (for example), and the results can still be predicted based on the math, and other facts.In other words, what TC1 says, mostly, (take out all the emotion) can be confirmed and predicted with physics and common sense. It reconciles. Some specifics others have said does not reconcile with the facts, which include math. KB
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
|
| One of Us |
Kabluey, you'll just start to use common sense then you throw something like this out there. Perfect conditions and circumstance is just that, perfect. Now, how in hell can a perfect heartshot, headshot or neckshot Fail?? The .223 and a 60+ grain bullet even makes your 1,000 ft pound threshold out to 100 + yds. I had a youngster out one time deer hunting. he was nervous and wanted me to shoot too. I had a 6.5x55 and 140 grn sierra's, just what I happened to feel like carrying, is why. A nice 7 pt buck came waltzing down the trail, the kid shot with me right behind, the buck ran 40 yds tumbling down a bank. Both shots were in the heart ( about 40-50 yd shot) kind of lower middle and just under the top. You couldnt tell which bullet did what as they were of the same practicle size. I showed that heart to a number of people as it was kind of neat. Both shots exited by the way. So does that mean the 6.5 killed it and it would have run off and healed up from the .223? | |||
|
| One of Us |
| |||
|
| One of Us |
KB--You are 100% correct. The Math supports that bumblebees can't fly. A known quanity. Whoever came up with it that they can? | |||
|
| One of Us |
Kabluewy, 6.5 Grendel, now you're talkin, much better choice for deer and even larger. 6.8 Rem would be a step up. Maybe since you live up there in AK you might consider a 50 Beowulf...that would take care of must about anything you would encounter up there. | |||
|
| One of Us |
| |||
|
| One of Us |
Why do I get the notion that I'm arguing with an idiot? The answer to your question is Gawd did it. Or Mother Nature, depending on your belief system. Who can argue with that? Fact is they move through the air, apparantly supported by their wings. That's all I need to know about that. It could be the all have little invisable strings attached, dangling all the way from heaven. It makes no difference to me. Some things just are. Why do you keep playing your harp for bees? KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
|
| One of Us |
I've considered a 458 SOCOM. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
|
| One of Us |
1. It's very cold and dark for much of the day in Alaska right now with not much to do. 2. Perhaps someone hasn't taken their meds. | |||
|
| One of Us |
KB....go for the gusto...get the 50 cal. | |||
|
One of Us |
Pitiful and Pathetic again. Also complete Bullsh%t So using this theory, opinion, opinion pulled out of his #$%, then a 7mmSTW would not create more trauma than a 30-30!!!!!! Amazing and unbelievable. Larger slower bullet, the 30-30, is superior to the small one, the 7mmSTW. Since the antis are into ballistics and charts and voodoo here are the numbers at the muzzle: 7mm STW 160grain 3250fps 3700flbs energy 30-30 150grain 2390fps 1750flbs energy What is missing in the above quote from this idiot is the velocity part of the quotient. My .223 loads are a lot hotter than the factory stuff and are a big deciding factor is using this caliber. In the rush to support the antis claims against the effectiveness of the .223, they like to quote only the selected facts that they like and will never refer to any opposing research. See P.O. Ackley's work on the small caliber high velocity rounds and their effectiveness. Wait a second........that would include some of those opposing facts, data and EXPERIENCE. Oh well have a nice day.  | |||
|
| One of Us |
This is about communication. It's difficult to structure words, to say what is really meant. All I'm saying there is, playing the probabilities, with all the known constants (repeatable facts) plus the irregular variables, then it's a reasonable estimate that the 223 will fail more often than a 308 (for example) simply because the 223 has measurably less margin for error. It's a prediction based primarily on those factors that are in fact measurable, and not ignoring the variables, but just not attempting to quantify them in a mathmatical forumla or estimate. There are simply too many possible variables, and it quickly becomes mind boggeling, and it boggels the meaningful discussion too. I don't mean to confuse concepts and words here, but let's say variables are ALWAYS present, and that's practically the only fact about variables thats always true. Furthermore, those variables are most often human induced. So, that means to me that we can almost NEVER count on perfect conditions. Thus, if we are dealing with a cartridge that has little margin for error, we are playing around in a small window of opportunity for success. I choose to better my odds, by at least using a cartridge that has a wider margin for error. That's a freeby, and it's quantifyable with mathmatics. I don't need to look at the wings of a bee to figure that out. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
|
| One of Us |
One of my favorites quotes from this suppository of all shooting knowledge is in the above quote. The quick summery is "Don't confuse me with what really works and experience, it says right here on the paper that it shouldn't" and .......... The frustration of communicating to those with opposing EXPERIENCE. "Why don't they do what I tell them to do???" Pathetic!!!!! | |||
|
| one of us |
So much bullshit about nothing. Shoot a deer with what you feel comfortable with as long as it's legal and screw what all the people think who don't like your choices. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I don't have a problem with that quote. If there's a problem, it belongs to you, and I don't care about that, and I can't do much about it anyway. If the math is real, the "theory" is real, until the math supports another reality. It has to reconcile. And furthermore, some of the stuff you specifically have claimed to be true simply doesn't reconcile with the math, and othe known facts. It's a mystery, at least. Frankly, these 223 threads wouldn't go to shit so deeply and so predictably, if each and every time your BS wasn't introduced and touted as truth, or at least touted as something that can be repeated by others, if they would just try it. IMO, encouraging the use of varmint bulets, and long range shots with a 223 is nasty internet BS. Very few, or no "hunters" that I personally know would claim some of the outlandish stuff that you claim on a regular basis. I really think that you make some of your stuff up, just to stirr the pot, and cause controversy and argument. I think that's what you like most, messing with people, and argument. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
|
| One of Us |
KB--Larger room for error with larger cals. Yea right just hit em anywhere. Amazingly a guy at the gun counter told me that recently--must be true and now you confirm it. | |||
|
| One of Us |
  There are exceptions of course, and for a guy with 100% success ratio, and 50% of that is with a finishing shot, I can see why guys like you put not stock in math or margins for error. Consistant perfection does that to a guy, even if it's in his dreams. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
|
| One of Us |
KB--Why do I keep playing my harp for bees? I did get a double post on that and don't have a clue as to how. Double post aside. It is very obvious when giving you answers I have to keep it simple--very simple. The bee example was the simplest I could come up with. Guess I'll have to try to find something even simpler. You are obviously a troll--your signature line--why do you come to the small cal section? Would be like me being anti archery(which I am not) but going to the archery section just to stir up poop. Go brag about your large cals in the large bore section---they are interested in such. | |||
|
| One of Us |
CM, I think when you started all those 223 threads, that you were trolling. At least for validation - and you ain't gonna find that here, at least not from me. I'll agree with you when you write/say something agreeable. Just like what happened with TC1, I think we finally agreed on several levels. I may have changed my mind a little, based on some of his reasonable statments, but that's the key. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Small Calibers Shooting deer with 223 - ethical
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia