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| One of Us |
Sitting in the gen'l store in WV, one of the old farts was holding court. First off, he felt that requiring kids to go to hunter safety was a rip off. HE could teach his grandson anything he needed to know. He then continued on to tell that under his tutorage his grandson had killed his first deer that year. With a .223. His final comment was "he had to shoot at 15 of them before he got one down, hee hee hee." Yeah, he's teaching his grandson everything he needs to know. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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| One of Us |
And you believe that General Store BS? And you can without anymore proof believe that if it had happened as you herd the out come would be any different with a 243 or 260. Any one that stupid probably would do stupid things with any rifle or caliber. All you gave was insight to his ethics, not that of a 223 vs deer. | |||
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One of Us |
He didn't say all the shots were misses. A few years ago I was watching one of those TTH (Texas Trophy Hunter) outdoor shows, and they had a bunch of teens out there taking their first deer - basically doe culling in one of the fenced deer ranches. The set-up was typical Texas, feeders with lots of corn, lots of deer milling about. The kids, guide and cameraman all in the large covered and enclosed stand. Big front window, with padded rifle rests. It took forever for the kids to shoot, barrel wobbeling all over the place, despite the rest. The kids obviously had no range experience, and some didn't even know how to place the rifle on their shoulder. Several of the shots wounded the does, and the rifle of choice 223 for the girls, and 224TTH for the boys. It was disgusting. And it was made worse at the end, when the slob guide and apparant ranch operator put on his speel, with heavy Texas drawl, about how it was a learning experience for the kids, and poor hits, tracking and losing deer was all part of the experience. I could hardly watch the whole thing I was so disgusted, and this guy was for real. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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I'm going deer hunting tomorrow and Thursday. I can't decide if I should bring my bazooka  (6.5x55) or my RPG  (338 Federal). It's a red deer cull on my friends high fenced ranch. | |||
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KB, I understand what you saw, and Im sure it was to the Man watching rather disturbing--That being said you are Me would have made sure the kids had put numerous rounds down range prior to hitting the stand and if done, the 223 with the right pills is adequate. Still, a bad shot with any 30 cal and below is likley a tracking affair a 223 is no where near as good as a 270,30-06,300,338 or 260 But I am as careful as a hunter can be with shot placement, and three weeks ago I shot a buck at 30 yards while chasing does shot him about 12 inches to far back as best as I could tell using SST 130s Chased the deer all the way up the mountain about 135 yds before i coud get another shot and dropped it. The lesson learned 270 was ethical, the shot I took was not. It wouldnt have been no matter what i was shooting. | |||
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| one of us |
wether it's "ethical" or not depends entirely on the circumstances. If you're a competent marksman, and you know the round's limitations, a .223 is an adequate cartridge for deer. I've killed 20 or so with my .22-250, and never had a problem that wasn't my fault (I flubbed one shot and hit the deer low; I would have lost it even if I was using a .375). As far as I'm concerned, the bottom line is this: a 55-60 grain bullet out of a .223 through the heart/lungs of a deer will kill it every time, plain and simple. Operator error causes more wounded deer than cartridge choice does. | |||
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I still just dont get where your comming from Kabluey, and I am trying, honestly. ethics and mistakes have nothing to do with it? How can it not? I'm not talking caliber here at all, but if you go afield determined to throw lead no matter what the situation, you have poor ethics. If I choose to shoot through brush at the ass end of a deer, no matter the caliber, and it gets away wounded it's my ethics and my mistake for thinking it would work isnt it? | |||
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| one of us |
This is precisely what I'm talking about. If you use a .223 and treat it like it's a .30-06 and take less than ideal shot angles, then you're unethical. There's nothing unethical about choosing to use a .223 and living with it's limitations. IMO, a .223 is a far more efficienct killer of deer-sized game than a bow and arrow is, and nobody seems to question the ethics of archery hunting. | |||
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| One of Us |
"Bullet Placement" bla, bla, bla..... The argument is to ethically kill an animal. Here is an example maybe someone can "get". A prarie dog is sitting at 150 yards. You shoot him in the gut or ass with your .17 HMR. He will still be able to get away, crawl to his hole and escape. The same dog is sitting at 150 yards. You shoot him in the gut or ass with your .243. He blows up. It's the same with larger game and larger calibers. A poor hit with a rifle firing a heavier bullet will have more likelihood of recovery than a poor hit with the puny pea shooter. | |||
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Bottom line, if it's not considered a "stunt", why do we have people starting "223" deer threads. "Another 223" deer thread. "Another Another 223 deer thread. Carpetman has started about 5 of them in the last 2 weeks. If anyone he knows kills a deer with a 223, it's time for a new thread bragging about how it was taken with a 223. If the caliber wasn't a big deal, why put it in the headline. You don't see "another 30-06 Deer" threads popping up. There is no legit reason to choose a 223 over a bigger caliber you can handle. Please don't talk about lack of recoil allowing for better shot placement because if you are too recoil sensitive to handle a 243, 257 or 260, you shouldn't be hunting big game. | |||
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Scottfromdallas--In past couple weeks I am aware of 3 deer taken with .22 cal. This being small cal section, would seem appropriate to post. How is that brag? We have you with no experience saying how unethical and kablewy with no experience saying about same. Would the .243, 257,260, have killed them deader? Good luck on your penned "hunt". | |||
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one of us |
Funny stuff. Maybe we should go to TX and he could explain ethics to us through the chain link fence.  Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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| One of Us |
It's a doe cull you moron. | |||
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| one of us |
It's you shooting penned up animals. Name calling won't change that. Who's puss is sore now? Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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| One of Us |
Not mine. I'm going to cull a few, gut them and eat them.  | |||
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So, ethics only count when it doesn't apply to you. I'm not surprised. -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Yes. I read your posts about the hunts. The 223 worked so well, two had to finished off with a pistol. | |||
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Did I ever use the word ethics? I don't think so. Perhaps you should read. I said there is no reason to use a 223 when you have a better alternative. So far, everyone that has posted positively about using a 223 on deer has said they own and use a larger caliber as well. And High Fenced places are about as unethical as the grocery store where you buy all your pen raised chicken, pork and beef. All those nice little packages of meat came from animals in pens. Maybe you should join PETA and put an end to all the pen raised animals. My buddy has ran quite a few free hunts for disables veterans and given people the opportunity to hunt that normally would not be able too. You may think it's unethical but you are a hypocrite if you ever buy meat at the grocery store. | |||
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OK, quick first impression is that this is good discussion. I'm listening, and thinking about what you're saying. We seem to have condfusion re ethics and mistakes. Shooting through bush = mistake and ethics error Shooting deer in the ass = mistake and ethical error Hitting deer too far back (gut shot) because it lurched as you pulled the trigger = circumstance, neither a mistake or ethic Hitting a branch, deflecting the bullet = mistake Gut shot deer because you flinched = mistake Gut shot deer because you ALWAYS flinch = mistake and ethical error Choosing a 223 varmint bullet, deer DRT, head shot = mistake in judgment, ethical error = stunt shooting, same as bush shooting or at sound. Shooting deer at 300 yds 223, deer runs 100 yds, lays down & dies = mistake in judgment, ethical error = stunt shooting. So, IMO it is entirely possible for some individuals to ethically use a 223 for the taking of deer. The problem is that imbedded in every discussion of the 223 are those unethical sorts who make no distinctions about carefully chosen shots, respecting the limitations of the cartridge, by advocating shots obviously further than the bullet has enough energy to do a clean job, or the open admission of using varmint bullets, helping grandkids do the same, etc. Sure, going beyond the limitations of any cartridge is either a mistake or unethical or both, however many posters regularly do it with the 223 and they are proud of it, and openly admit it, perhaps just not knowing better, but ignorant nonetheless. And they righteously defend such BS, and tolerate it from others. The first problem with the 223 is that it has such a narrow margin in which to stay within its limitations, that the probability of even the most "ethical" eventually stray. In my view, that discussion is unique to the use of the 223, thus the big picture view makes the use of the 223 for deer very questionable ethically, IMO. Most likely, every flaming arsh hole out there thinks himself ethical, or doesn't give a rat's a$$, but that's subject to an alternate opinion of others. KB
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Now I agree with you Kabluey, but this isnt the way you always present your arguments. RC if a bigger rifle could kill in the relationship of a 243 on a prairiedog, youd need to have something thats not shoulder fired. If what you are trying to claim was true a .270 would drop a deer with poor shot placement, doesnt work that way. | |||
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| one of us |
-------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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| One of Us |
TC1--+1. Rcamuglia-- a .17 on a prarie dog and they crawl off. Apparently with .22 centerfires same same so jump to .243. Why? A .260 or a .270 is better and what is really needed is a .458 Mag with any of those big boomers you can hit em anywhere. I know--the guy at the gun counter told me.. I have posted about 3 deer shot this year with .22 centerfire and they crawled zero feet. The fact they needed finishing shot has been criticized but nobody has told me the magic round that puts em down dead EVERYTIME. | |||
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| One of Us |
ScottfromDallas--You mentioned disabled hunts in the penned area and your sign off line is The Great Armchair Bwana--are you wheelchair bound? If so, hats off to the guy letting you hunt his penned place. If not--hmmm ethics??? | |||
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One of Us |
So we have a "High Fencer" coming on here to post about ethics!!!!!! One of the most pathetic and pitiful stunts to appear here!!! We try to run all those "High Fencers" out of Idaho, got the job done a couple of times. We had a TV Hunting show come here and film an episode on one without the disclosure, made for some interesting phone calls and emails. Looks like shooting deer with a .223 really puts these lads off. Their famous cry is "Why don't people do what I tell them to do???"  | |||
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| One of Us |
No. The question is not too difficult for me. My point is the proponants of this issue have actual evidence that goes against your opinion or ethics or morals or what ever. All the opponents have is their theory about all these wounded deer that die a terrible death. Show us something besides theory and emotion.Is that too difficult for you? | |||
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| One of Us |
dsmit, I've given specific examples, observations, and discussed the ballistics of the cartridge. I've jumped on jerks like teancum for his BS specifically about the use of varmint bullets at extraordinary ranges, and just for general princilals due to his nasty attitude. I've tried all sorts of reason, explaining the difference in ethics and mistake, and why the 223 is marginal in the best of circumstances. All of it does little to pursuade others to agree, if they don't already agree from the start. So, that leaves me a little bit in the mood to mess with some folks about their views on this topic. And besides, I've never argued that the 223 won't kill deer, or won't do it ethically. Your "actual evidence" is persuasive, and I believe most of it, but frankly I don't believe all of what is written about the success stories. It's the classic thing about if it seems too good to be true, then it's probably not true. There's one thing, just one thing, that I haven't an adequate answer to. That is the question of who and where did this magic number of ft lbs as a threshold to be reliable for deer actually come from? I have always accepted it as something meaningful, and proponants of the 223 deer rifle seem to completely ignore it and dismiss it as though meaningless. What's the deal with that? KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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The self-rightiousness and hypocrisy on this thread has passed the gag me level-none of you are making sense anymore-just throughing shit like monkeys take a deep breath and grow up | |||
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| One of Us |
If you can't take it, why click on it???? Your choice.... good bye!!! | |||
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| One of Us |
You are going so much better now and I'm proud of you. In the three reasons above that you state and base your opinion on, only one or 1/3 of your data base reflects anything close to experience. It is coyly stated as examples not EXPERIENCE, (nice attempt at coming close to experience but still not quite there) which you previously mentioned that you have NONE with respect to shooting deer with a .223. Funny how people disagree with your "examples", not EXPERIENCE, and you wonder why "Why don't people do what I tell them to do???" Somehow your synapses are not firing to allow you to comprehend that people are looking for EXPERIENCE with the .223, not theories, Observations, discussions on ballistics, examples,or any other source of your highly held data that everyone disregards. I know that is very hard for you and I know that with a lot of effort you will be able to overcome it as we are all pulling for you. Best of Wishes. | |||
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| One of Us |
I have a question on the table for discussion. See the quote below. In other words, how the hell does "experience" and/or "actual evidence" trump physics? Reconcile it, and I'll STFU.
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OK, WTF, I'll go first.  Here are some articles from a self-proclamed expert, whom I'm inclined to believe. Notice in the first article, the 223 is not even on the list. The closest is the 223WSM, and it about half the whack than the 243WSM, so it's a probable interpolation that the 223 Rem is about half compared to the 243Win. It's interesting that the 243 is considered by most as a minimum deer cartridge. In the second article the mighty 223 again isn't even on the friggin list for deer size game. So, why is the 223 so successful in Texas and Idaho, when it's basically half the whack of a cartridge considered minimum for deer - the 243? I don't get it. http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifl...lling_power_list.htm http://www.chuckhawks.com/gun_game.htm KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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| one of us |
From Chuck Hawks and the very 1st sentence in the article you just linked:
Now to quote Daniel Patrick Moynihan:
Where are the physics that say it can't be done? Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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| One of Us |
I feel like I'm being debated by dumb and dumber. Did I misspeak when I said 2 of the 3 deer needed to be finished with a handgun after being wounded with the 223? | |||
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| One of Us |
You have presented no intellectual argument other than you don't like high fenced ranches even though they are perfectly legal like wounding game with a 223. | |||
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| one of us |
It's very obvious you assume much and know very little about hunting or ethics in general. If that's all you got we'll let it go. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Great. We not only have a .223 for deer thread but a high fence thread as well. Wake me up on page 6 or 7.  ----------------------------------------------------- Do not answer a fool according to his folly, or you yourself will be just like him. Proverbs 26-4 National Rifle Association Life Member | |||
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I thank you for letting it go. Me know so little, someday maybe I'll learn from your wise posts. | |||
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| one of us |
Maybe so. -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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I don't think so.... you condition is obvious!!!!! | |||
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Teancum, Actually, I was being serious. I enjoy reading about others experiences. I know you are very wise as well. I'll make sure to learn from you too. | |||
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