quote:

Originally posted by Luckyducker:
A co-worker/shooting buddy of mine witnessed a friend that he elk hunts with shoot an elk at 87X yds (almost half mile) with a 264WinMag. Distance was measured with a Lieca rangefinder and the shot was a bang/flop. I don't know if this is typical or not for this caliber but I don't think I'll try that shot with my 264 Winnie but I've learned to never say never.

The guy who "made" that shot should probably have his hunting privileges suspended... for life I've seen a lot of dead & wounded animals from that kind of stuff. They didn't die easily.

quote:

Originally posted by brayhaven:

quote:

Originally posted by Luckyducker:
A co-worker/shooting buddy of mine witnessed a friend that he elk hunts with shoot an elk at 87X yds (almost half mile) with a 264WinMag. Distance was measured with a Lieca rangefinder and the shot was a bang/flop. I don't know if this is typical or not for this caliber but I don't think I'll try that shot with my 264 Winnie but I've learned to never say never.

The guy who "made" that shot should probably have his hunting privileges suspended... for life I've seen a lot of dead & wounded animals from that kind of stuff. They didn't die easily.

X2!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
thought this could get intesting...

it is a do all bore that can do everything that the 22 through 30 can do!

Lol. Well, interesting discussion point, as you've suggested. Aside from people 'sticking up for' their 'favourite' cartridge, I'm amused by the 'theoretically all around best' types of disucssions when it come to rifle cartridges. We have the following common calibers to choose from in that range, in a variety of 'flavours': .22, .24, .25, .26, .27, .28 and .30. Now it seems to me that each is going to have it's own pluses and minuses in a variety of different types of shooting, from target to varmint to larger game, short vs. moderate vs. long range. Any of them can cover the entire spectrum, each is better than another in a particular niche. The only significant difference from my perspective (here comes my pitch )is, if we're hunting in 'Nowheresville' and need to purchase some ammo, my chances of finding my .270 Winchester are rather higher than you finding your 6.5mm X 'anything'.

Common guy,s
neither is really best, they all work about the same. If you pick the right bullet and fire a good shot you will get about the same results .
Clearly My .257 bores are a little light for relly big game like Elk but If all I had was a Roberts , I would not stay home from an elk hunt. Just have to get closer and use a 120 grain partition, and she would do the job .
A 6.5 would be a little better on the elk and the .308 would be a little better than the 6.5 on big stuff , but it falls into the medium bore catigory, as does the great.270.
but it is still a matter of match your load to the game and take a good shot...tj3006

quote:

Originally posted by deadkenny:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
thought this could get intesting...

it is a do all bore that can do everything that the 22 through 30 can do!

Lol. Well, interesting discussion point, as you've suggested. Aside from people 'sticking up for' their 'favourite' cartridge, I'm amused by the 'theoretically all around best' types of disucssions when it come to rifle cartridges. We have the following common calibers to choose from in that range, in a variety of 'flavours': .22, .24, .25, .26, .27, .28 and .30. Now it seems to me that each is going to have it's own pluses and minuses in a variety of different types of shooting, from target to varmint to larger game, short vs. moderate vs. long range. Any of them can cover the entire spectrum, each is better than another in a particular niche. The only significant difference from my perspective (here comes my pitch )is, if we're hunting in 'Nowheresville' and need to purchase some ammo, my chances of finding my .270 Winchester are rather higher than you finding your 6.5mm X 'anything'.

Honestly, by the time I am heading out to the hunt, my preparation has one thing in common, the FIRST thing I make SURE of is I have my gun and it's ammo, and plenty of it, AND if I am going on a remote hunt, there is a backup gun and ammo in case it is needed for any reason.

I think most any AR member here has their ammo loaded and packed when heading out. I honestly don't recall ever killing even one deer with a factory load. I believe EVERY animal was killed my my handload.

And I enjoy it that way.

Fair enough, and I suppose it's not surprizing that many members of an "accuratereloading.com" forum would shoot hand loads in preference to factory. However, I guess that was just my obscure way of pointing out the 'popularity' factor in such considerations. The much greater popularity of a cartridge such as .270 Winchester means that many more makes and models of rifles are chambered in that caliber. So, if I choose .270 I have a great selection of different configurations to choose from, bolt / pump / lever / semi / single - longer heavier barrel, shorter light-weight etc. etc. If I decide on a 6.5mmX?, then I have a much more limited selection, or I have to go custom. Now if I've decided on custom to begin with, then that factor is largely eliminated from the equation. However, more common usually translates into less expensive more often than not as well (bullets, cases). In the final analysis, there's no convincing argument that anything 'magical' happens when you add or subtract one hundreth of an inch from the bore diameter. What you gain on one end you're giving up on the other, so it's just a matter of fine tuning your choice to YOUR particular type of shooting.

Deadkenny

Last time i checked the .260rem was pretty common. Actually every gun store near me stocks plenty of ammo in 6.5X55 although i do hand load.

Most cartridges will get the job done today, so yes there really is no perfect cartridge. Like someone said, put the bullet in the right place and you will have your quarry.

To set the record straight the .260 rem is a better long range cartridge than the .308 win. Theres an article in the March 07 issue of Shooting Times pg 42 titled "Could the .260rem replace the .308 win as THE tactical round"

The author provides tons of data and actual match shooting where the .308 is clearly beaten by the .260 rem which shoots flatter, has less recoil and less wind drift, and this is at 1000yds.

As well as the 6.5-284 which has cleaned up at long range. Also the 6.5 grendel is THE cartridge for AR platforms, all i have to say is that, ITS ABOUT TIME that Americans are starting to wake up to the atributes of the 6.5 mm caliber! Perfect? maybe not, but damn close.......

I like my 6.5x55 - my nephew is now hunting with the Swedish M94 cavalry carbine I bought with my Dad in 1962.

The round isn't perfect, but it's near to it. In fact my only quibbles are the non-standard head diameter and a lack of premium bullets in the 110g - 120g range that would allow some decent velocities without concern about the bullet coming apart.

As to the greater effectiveness of the bigger rounds up to 30-06, say, I'm not sure it exists. A hit in the boiler room with a good 6.5 bullet will bring down an impala or elk, while a miss or a marginal hit won't. The same can be said for the 30-06 (or 375 H&H), though, so I'm left wondering where the advantage of the bigger cartridge lies.

I've personally limited my shots to 300 yards, so trajectory doesn't much enter into my decision, but I don't see much differences among the 257R to 30-06 class at 400 yards.

Finally, I've owned 300 magnums, but I've never been interested in a 100-round practice day with any of them, while they're common with my Swedes.

I've been thinking of building up a custom rifle in 6.5, though the only possible reason I could give would be to standardize on one type of safety for my whole battery.

If the round's perfect, though, and I were honest, I'd say I don't need anything else. I'm not sure I want to go that far, yet...

Jaywalker

The advantage as I see it for the big rounds,
and i mean the .338 and up class on elk, is the margin for error.
If you shoot a elk with a 6.5 and somthing goes wrong , say you hip shoot him, with somthing like a whelen, you likly will destroy enough of the hips that he will not be moving very fast and will leave a good blod trail.
But a well placed shot with a 6.5 swede will drop an elk just fine...tj3006

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Jones:
The advantage as I see it for the big rounds,
and i mean the .338 and up class on elk, is the margin for error.
If you shoot a elk with a 6.5 and somthing goes wrong , say you hip shoot him, with somthing like a whelen, you likly will destroy enough of the hips that he will not be moving very fast and will leave a good blod trail.
tj3006

IMHO you've touched on the answer. With bullets of the same proportional construction and traveling at the same velocity the larger diameter bullet is ALWAYS capable of delivering more bone and tissue damage . The well placed shot is only a dream for a lotta people . roger

quote:

bartsche: With bullets of the same proportional construction and traveling at the same velocity the larger diameter bullet is ALWAYS capable of delivering more bone and tissue damage .

I had always believed that, but am now starting to question it. Or, to put it another way, "Even if the larger bullet in a given class of cartridges is capable of more damage, the effect on the animal is insignificant," IMO.

Of course, this depends on the definition of "class of cartrdges." For my purposes, I'm defining it as 6.5x55 to 30-06. In reviewing the Swedish moose study I find those two cartridges amount to most of the kills, and their results are practically identical in terms of effectiveness. I don't argue that all of them create the same blood trail, however; that's the area in which the larger cartridge has a good lead.

While I don't believe you can get perfect shots every time, I wouldn't shoot unless I had a path to the lower lung area and a bullet that could reach it. Passing through a hip-bone on the way to the lungs would be important for that. With the right bullets, I don't believe the 6.5 would have a problem.

Jaywalker

quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Jones:
The advantage as I see it for the big rounds,
and i mean the .338 and up class on elk, is the margin for error.
If you shoot a elk with a 6.5 and somthing goes wrong , say you hip shoot him, with somthing like a whelen, you likly will destroy enough of the hips that he will not be moving very fast and will leave a good blod trail.
But a well placed shot with a 6.5 swede will drop an elk just fine...tj3006

the thread is the best SMALL bore ever...

yes the 338/358/9,3 slug it out for the best medium bore but that is another thread and board

I would like to argue with you on this but I can't. IMO the 6.5x55 is a gentle giant. Very shooter friendly and deadly as hell. Its a long time favorite of mine and I have had about ten of them. I bought a batch of the Mausers for 64.00 and sporterized them to sell. I have killed more deer with that caliber than any other. The 308 and 270 are close behind followed by the 25-06.

quote:

the 6.5 is the best small bore ever!

If we're talking about hunting critters of under 400 pounds and we define small bore as under .270 Caliber, I'd agree with those that claim the 6.5 to be the king of small bores!

I think the 6.5 has synergy.....coming from:

1) accuracy and shootability, shot placement is not everything, but without it...failure....., but with it, more often than not success. Nothing will die if a mortal hit is not made.

2) bullets with HIGH SD, which penetrate, and are propelled typically at moderate speed, not HYPER speed which blows them apart, also the high BC bullets often retain very well

3) often a fast 7.5-9 inch twist, which in MY opinion keeps the nose forward DURING penetration giving perhaps higher percentages of straight line penetration through vitals (what good is RAW ACCURACY BEFORE impact, if the bullet veers off, or simply fails to reach vitals?), oh and while we are at it, let's not fail to mention a debatable subject, HIGH RPM's from fast twist, much more centrifugal force than even top end high speed magnums, as the fast twist often overtakes sheer high vel rounds with standard twist i.e. 10" in 30 cals.

Is the round perfect? Well, with a 6mm bullet, I have confidence when I can place my shot, but with certain situations, I may pass, depending on the load in chamber, and certainly would stop at hogs and deer, but with 6.5mm I would take up to elk and such, no worries, let's face it a 140-160 gr is much more bullet than a 100gr 6mm.

Now if I REALLY want to step it up a notch, visible killing effect I KNOW will happen with 338 and 358 bore. 9.3 and 375 as well. 416's.....well I cannot fathom pulling the trigger a 2nd time on one!

I think the 338/358/9.3's are indeed a top consideration for our larger game and will provide a wanted improvement in stopping power, esp. on dangerous game.

That said, there is not an animal that walks that cannot be cleanly taken with a 6.5x55 or similar 6.5mm with a bullet of proper construction placed in the right spot.....of course some might argue other rounds can do the same, and that I cannot argue, but the 6.5 gets it done in a big way, with a not so big 'push' as my 10 year old says.....referring to recoil of course.

As to firearm availability, economics and business forces drive product design and production.

Should NON 6.5mm mfg notice lost dollars in sales to competitor companies that DO offer 6.5mm's, guess what market forces will dictate?

Yes, MORE 6.5mm choices from mfg of guns and ammo.

I would not mind seeing it myself. Now re: the $64 mausers......why would companies want to try selling against a competing product that cost one fifth an alternative on the market?

Those mausers now have dried up, so perhaps it is time.

Manufacturers, are you listening....yet?

As popular and good as the ole '06 is, I can only imagine how especially on smaller big game, better shot placements would have been made in the past century, with hunters using 6.5x55's that have recoil tolerable by ALL shooters, regardless of range time. Result.....at LEAST as good of a kill ratio per shot fired on deer and similar game. I know there are guys who have some anxiety trying to squeeze a shot from a 30-06.

I was too young and dumb to know years ago when someone who introduced me to reloading, offered a Mark 10 mauser in 7x57 for $200 to realize what a NICE rifle that would have been. It was a steal, and would have been a pleasure to have owned and used, as are the mild mannered 6.5's

To think there is a website on the fine 6mm BR, I am shocked as there should be a 6.5mm.com website for those who have learned the attributes they offer.

quote:

Originally posted by brayhaven:

quote:

Originally posted by Luckyducker:
A co-worker/shooting buddy of mine witnessed a friend that he elk hunts with shoot an elk at 87X yds (almost half mile) with a 264WinMag. Distance was measured with a Lieca rangefinder and the shot was a bang/flop. I don't know if this is typical or not for this caliber but I don't think I'll try that shot with my 264 Winnie but I've learned to never say never.

The guy who "made" that shot should probably have his hunting privileges suspended... for life I've seen a lot of dead & wounded animals from that kind of stuff. They didn't die easily.

at that distance itd have to be a neck, spine or head shot. i doubt itd be one through the vital organs. i believe it is possible with a very accurate rifle to hit the neck and drop em on the spot.

My Winchester Mdl 70 264 Win is a fine mule deer,prong horn rifle but for elk I,ll thak a 340 Weatherby and not take a shot past 400 Yds...

Gidday Paul,

With a 140gr Amax leaving the muzzle at 3100 fps from a 264 winmag a body hit would be quite lethal as the bullet would still be doing about 1800fps and have around the 1000ftlb energy generally accepted as necessary for clean kills on deer sized critters.

Such is the advantage of the fantastic 6.5mm cal. It surely is the new king of medium game calibres.

I just wish I could still see that far to take advantage of it. The drop would be about 11 and a half feet. Thats a power of hold over and any wind would play havoc. The bullet would certainly kill but my problem would be getting it to the right spot. Maybe I should spend more time on the 900m range.

Happy Hunting

Hamish

There are those......who such as frequent LongRangeHunting.com who use rangefinders and KNOW by shooting the trajectory, but taking extreme shots at game is always adding risk of wounding animals, and as such, is not as much hunting, as is longrangegameshooting or hopefully killing quickly.

Is it ethical, I think not, purely as I have to imagine more chances present for things to go wrong and the stunts wound animals that should be respected enough to stalk closer for a more sure quick kill.

That is my .02 on extreme long distance hunting or game shooting. Prairie dogs and other varmints, I take no offense as overpopulation brings plagues, disease, etc., but our Elk and Deer and like animals I believe deserve better.

As much as I enjoy long range shooting, I try thinking of 400 yds as being the OUTSIDE max for a shot in the field, preferring to be MUCH closer for a better thrill, before the kill.

Lastly, as we all take ownership and accountability as to the perception the public has of hunters and firearms owners, we need to keep that in check. Our rights are truly a privilege, that could be taken away some day, so we need to be aware of that fact.

Have a great day.