thought this could get intesting...

it is a do all bore that can do everything that the 22 through 30 can do!

Gidday Boomstick,

With ya all the way mate. 6.5s forever!!!!

They handle it all.

Happy Hunting

Hamish

When you consider heavy 22's are up to 80 gr, and the 6.5's start at 85gr, then you often see 150-165's used up through deer and even elk with 165 in 30's, and the 6.5's will do up thru 160gr, though a good 120x, 125/129 or 140 will give you similar penetration, yes, woodchucks to moose w/in 300 yds, w/shot placement, they are a tough one to beat for do it all, mild recoil rounds.

A co-worker/shooting buddy of mine witnessed a friend that he elk hunts with shoot an elk at 87X yds (almost half mile) with a 264WinMag. Distance was measured with a Lieca rangefinder and the shot was a bang/flop. I don't know if this is typical or not for this caliber but I don't think I'll try that shot with my 264 Winnie but I've learned to never say never.

My tag line says it all....

What is being posted is correct. The only fly in the ointment as I see it is that when punching paper or varmints the .223 still costs far less and that is meaningful when shooting a whole bunch. roger

quote:

Originally posted by Luckyducker:
A co-worker/shooting buddy of mine witnessed a friend that he elk hunts with shoot an elk at 87X yds (almost half mile) with a 264WinMag. Distance was measured with a Lieca rangefinder and the shot was a bang/flop. I don't know if this is typical or not for this caliber but I don't think I'll try that shot with my 264 Winnie but I've learned to never say never.

I don't know if I ever posted this, but a good friend 'in the know of rifles' told me of a report of an elk being shot at a similar distance with a 6mm BR and 105-107gr but it may have been a head or neck shot.

Those extreme shots, if rare illustrate how deadly and effective rounds can be, given shot placement, but do not support routine use in my mind of shooting animals at distances anywhere near that, as relatively few shooters can consistently PLACE their FIRST shot that well at those distances and when doing so, surely they have the means if they chose, to use a much better LR round i.e. heavy 30-338 bore if not 50 cal on such long shots at big game.

I can say even if I were 'prepared and equipped' for such long shots, I would not do it.

Prairie dogs and varmints are one thing, but deer, elk, etc. I believe shot try to be taken w/in 400-500 yds on the extreme, much closer whenever possible, for the ethical and humane way done by respected sportsman.

Laser RF, optics, etc have extended the 'potential' and probability of long range shooting, but it still leaves so much room for error.

If I were needing meat to survive, I'd shoot at game when forced at long distance, if I had ammo to spare, but thankfully I have not been that bad off

And yes, a 223 can save money, if you don't do what most 223 shooters do, increase the volume.....which add to the fun.

I sure am glad I don't have to pick only one caliber for shooting...

but when it comes to most of my field hunting... a 6.5 bore is pretty much the most common one I grab, followed by 6mm, then 7mm and then 30 caliber...

but not talking varmints or target shooting.. that is a heavy 22 caliber centerfire proposition... I sure do shoot a lot of 223!!!!

The 6.5mm is the cartridge I grab for when I want to go deer hunting, period. This includes 6.5x54mm, 6.5x55mm, 6.5x57mm, and .260 Remington. I could add to this 6.5-06, but whenever I get a 6.5-06 set up right someone wants to buy it!! There are no flies on a 6.5mm!!!

LLS

I shot a 256 Newton for 20 years, but finally decided to retire it from general shooting and hunting to preserve it. So instead, I just had to replace it with...guess what...a 6.5/06.

Barstooler

Will have to agree with Seafire, but I also have two .338s (different cases), a .375H&H which has killed four elk, and am building a .395 Ruger...and yes, the number .395 is correct.

Can't argue with that. I am a huge fan of the 6.5x55. I would take on any NA game animal with it.

OK, I'll concur in the result with drawing some distinctions.

The combination of cases, powders and bullets available make the .264 bore better than any other bore diameter under .284 for big game hunting. Throating, Twist, and Bullet selection issues make others better verminating options.

HOWEVER, no particular factory chambering meets that perfect harmony in most factory rifles.

260 Rems are often twisted too fast to shoot heavy bullets well and lack powder capacity for top end velocity.

6.5x55's are typically chambered with too deep throats to seat light/short bullets close to the lands for top accuracy. They are often twisted too fast to optimize sub 140 grain bullets as well.

6.5x284's are still a wildcat. I can't think of any mainstream factory rifles in this chambering. Tho the use of custom barrels does allow creation of proper chamber geometry and twist selection.

6.5-06 and AI version. Same as x284 with less case efficiency as the capacity increases. Doesn't have all that much of an advantage over a good 25-06 loaded with premium bullets.

6.5 magnums ... burning LOTS of powder for verminating purposes.

Bottom line is the 6.5 is theoretically the best small bore ever. However the market has not endorsed this. Much of this is the fault of the gunmakers who haven't optimized the throating and twist issues. In a custom rifle, the 6.5's are probably the best small bore.

PARTICULARLY IF: Hornady would offer a 75 or 80 gr VMAX and Barnes would offer a 100 gr TSX. If those bullets were added to the menu, the bore would really shine on the small end.

Perhaps you need to re-check, Many 260 rifles except Ruger, perhaps Steyr, make a 9 twist which is SLOW for heavy bullets, not too fast, the Ruger 8" is perfect.

Yes, Swedes often are deep throated, yet I have witnessed how they do with 85gr bullets, just fine. There are lots of variables, but re: of those, many 6.5 guns shoot very well with light to moderate recoil, and can use bullets with high SD that kill much better than many would believe these mild rounds will.

Yes, if you want to 'tweak' a set up for perfection, often regardless of cartridge, you go custom, contour, twist, length, chamber dimensions, and yes throat specs.

Oh, you mention the x55's being twisted often too fast? Actually most have appropriate 8 twist that do fine, better actually with 140's than lighter, yet again, light bullets shoot well too. About powder capacity, a small bore has less expansion ratio, they need more barrel to burn i.e. volume in bore......the same powder....but 6.5's have high SD bullets which increase friction, and combined with required faster twist, velocity is 'hampered' somewhat if you will. As a trade off, DOWNRANGE the 6.5's BC often makes up for a slighter reduced speed. So even if a 284 or 308 bore starts the same weight faster, it slows faster as well, which is why a 260 will drop 1/3 less of a 308, or thereabouts, at VERY long range....but I believe a 6.5 is well balanced with 260 or 6.5x55 capacity myself. With top loads in a decent barrel, no it is not a magnum, but in my mind it should give very close to say a 270 performance, something Jack Oconner and many loyal followers were content with on much game. If MAGNUM capacity were so preferred, I might believe a 264 mag would outsell 260's by a wide margin, and I don't think that is the case.

Theory aside, I have a factory 7mm-08 that is SUPPOSED to shoot 140-160's best, yet I have a group shot at 200 yds, that are 3 shots in HALF INCH. It will routinely shoot that load around .5moa, OH, and the bullet is a 100 grain Hornady HP, which is SUPPOSED to be too light OR rather, NOT OPTIMAL for the twist.

There are not always, ABSOLUTES, when it comes to what firearms actually do.

Those with 6.5s, factory or custom, admire what they actually do. I do acknowledge you made some valid points, but on the twists thing.....hey, when a kid, I dropped piano lessons because I kept arguing with the teacher, which end sounded HIGH, and which end was LOW.

The LARGER the number, the longer a bullet has to travel i.e. 9 inches vs 8 inches.....larger number = SLOWER twist. Hope that helps.

Again, you raise good points......but I wanted to give my .02.

I like the 6.5mm bore, it's hard not to like something that works so well. Well not really, I still don't like the 30.06.

I've shot an antelope at 280 yards with a 100 grain bullet and a coyote at 732 yards with a 142 grain bullet all out of my 6.5x284 with a 1:8.5" twist.

6.5 BR:

My bad re fast/slow. Thanks for the edits.

Was it Browning that FUBAR'd the 260 with a 1-10 in the Low Wall? Think I've seen others in that range ... maybe BrainFriday'd.

I have a 6.5x55 M70 FWT. Love it. Have only run 140's and 130 TSX's out of it so far. Other owners of the same rig have cautioned re poor performance with 120-129 class bullets. I'll see for myself this spring when I try to get 129 SP's to shoot to the same POI as the 130 TSX's.

Flirted with 100 gr Partitions in concept until I realized that I couldn't load them longer than 2.94 when the other lead bullets were touching lands at 3.15. Rifle didn't particularly like the samples I did run through it, but those were minimally developed without a fair chance.

Again the 6.5 WOULD benefit from better lighter end bullet selection and throating to allow it.

In fact I couldn't think of much better than a custom chambered swede on a modern action IF Barnes would make me some 100 gr TSX's.

No. The 25 caliber is the best small bore ever.

I started shooting 6.5s in the late 60s and never looked back. Have wildcatted everything from the 223 case on up. Same bullets/different cases and powders. Love the .25s too but, when all is said and done? The 6.5s rule. Been all over the world with the 264 Mag and it never let me down! Low on recoil-high on killing with little meat damage as long as the shot is pretty well placed and the bullet is the right one for the job. Long live the 6.5s!!

Aloha, Mark

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
thought this could get intesting...

it is a do all bore that can do everything that the 22 through 30 can do!

Same could be said of 25's & 7mm's and arguments made for them as well. But why on earth would you want an "all around" that can "do everything". Usually things that do everything, don't do anything exceptionally well . And having a rifle that would, would make it hard to justify owning more than one gun. Who'd wanna do that?

Never seen the fascination myself ... but then I've only had a 6.5x55. For me it would be 270cal to fill the same niche.
Cheers...
Con

quote:

No. The 25 caliber is the best small bore ever.

In what respect? And in what comparison to the 6.5's? Don't get me wrong, I do like the .25's but I think as mentioned above the 6.5's have better versatility and awesome chamberings, not just for hunting but benchrest as well. I once got on a kick to find the perfect caliber, chambering, rifle, etc. and ended up with a .257 WBY lightweight. That particular rifle was the nicest POS I ever owned. The hotter .25's tend to be a touch overbore for my taste (for me they aren't fun to shoot or reload) and I once read a thread on AR that the 25's seemed to be the most temperamental when it comes to accuracy. Anyway, I eventually ended up with the perfect quarterbore--a 25/35. But I have since become addicted to 6.5 and hope to do some serious shooting with my 6.5x55 and hope someday that they come out the 6.5/284 in a sporting rifle. IMO the .25's and the best American/non-metric small bore

I guess gun cartridge choices are like choices at the snow cone stand or ice cream parlor. There are LOTS of flavors and they all sell, but some are more popular than others, and the 6.5 has some loyalists as the revolver enthusiast like 41's or say 32 magnums....or 45 colt, off the beaten path, but unique characteristics that are found desirable.....same as the 10mm in semi's.....but they ALL can and do work when the operator can land a projectile of proper construction, in the proper place.

Mild shooting characteristics led to the 270's effectiveness and popularity as the 6.5's. If the 6.5/06 been commercialized instead of 264 mag, and 270, it may have been Jack O'connor's pet.

Anyway, per that post on Browning, I believe you are correct, I had a hankering in the past for a 260 but that 10 twist kept making me hesitate, and that is what the catalog listed IIRC. At best it was 9, but I believe Browning reported 10 in their literature for the low wall, and the abolts had a slower twist as well vs Ruger. Rem has 9.

2 mods I would have done if I were to have made the 260, was to have all guns in 8 twist, and SAAMI specs reflect that, as that is why many mfg use 9. BUT, for us die hard 6.5 fans, flexibility is why say Seafire throated his Rugers to handle 140's, as they already have appropriate twist.

That said, I did have a Low wall in 243, and for a light octagon barrel is drove tacks. My buddy his first 2 of 3 shots into half inch, at 200 yds with a 6x scope which I am sure the reticle covers more than that...but it was a sub moa gun. As a side note, I have heard several reports on the low wall having shot sub moa, some better some worse, one guy bought 2 and sold the one that grouped a little larger, but most owners used 120-129 on the high end.

And to the 6.5 Winchester....I know they were 8 twist, I had one.....and they like the heavier bullets and they do have deeper throating....but do try various bullets....as hey a 100gr Hornady just might surprise you and oust the partition in accuracy and have plenty of performance on coyotes and antelope sized game, even whitetail and such w/o trying to break bone.....and they will do around 3400 fps.

I know the reputation of 6.5's were with slow heavy bullets, but they can also perform well with lighter bullets, if you are not shooting moose and such.

I have found that the 1-8" twist rate in my 6.5X55 Remington 700 classic stabilizes lighter bullets with no problems. If a 100gr partition or ballistic tip wouldnt do it then a 120gr TSX will. Add the newer 130gr Swift scirocco and 130gr Nosler accu-bond to the repetoire and its hard to beat. Theres also the 120gr Swift A-frame, 130gr TSX, 129gr Hornady S.P., 140 gr trohy bonded bear claw, 140gr Nosler partition,140gr Swift A-frame, 156gr Lapua mega, 156gr Norma bonded, 160gr Hornady R.N. or the 160gr Sierra. Its evident that the 6.5's have it all over quarter bores and actually kill as efficiently as the 30-06. Just look at the records the Norwegians take on moose kills. Between the 30-06 and 6.5X55 they have thousands of animals killed every year. They record number of shots used, and the distance that the animal travelled after the shot. Well in their records the moose travelled less with the swede!

The 6.5x55 Swedish has to be the 6.5 all other six-and-a-halfs are judged by. The underrated 6.5 Remington mag. is wonderful too. Could the 6.5 Remington be the first "short Magnum along with "big bro" 350 Remington magnum? To bad they started off in such a "fubar" rifle.

Is the 6.5x55 the same or less COL as the 7x57, both with longest bullets and would fit in an intermeidate (1910 Mexican)Mauser action?

Allen

Although i only own a 6.5X55, and love it,
i still think the 6.5 Rem Mag is the best cartridge ever devised.

Useless! Why go for a 6.5 if you can have a 308W, does everything the 6.5 does + more...



Johan

the 6.5x55 case is about 4mm longer than the 7.62x51mm cartridge you are discussing and holds more powder. NObody(!!) has ever talked about 300yd+ shots with a 308 that I am conversant with, but the 6.5x55 is noted as a flat shooting long range plains game rifle here in the USA.

Rich
DRSS

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
the 6.5x55 case is about 4mm longer than the 7.62x51mm cartridge you are discussing and holds more powder. NObody(!!) has ever talked about 300yd+ shots with a 308 that I am conversant with, but the 6.5x55 is noted as a flat shooting long range plains game rifle here in the USA.

308 vs 6.5, read here....

http://www.deer-uk.com/Jefferis1.htm

also, In 1999 fall British long range bench rest championship was won with a Tikka Continental, cal. 6,5x55. The range was 1000 yards, 10 shots, diameter of all impacts: 4,4".

Sounds impressive to me....also...I don't know if military rifles are allowed in Australia, but a friend of mine is shooting a Swedish Mauser (6.5x55) in our 1000 yard factory class and has won three out of ten matches with it this year. His best was an 11.808" group and a 44 score.

An 1896 mauser I believe it what was referred to...http://www.benchrest.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-6895.html

quote:

Originally posted by 308winchester:
Useless! Why go for a 6.5 if you can have a 308W, does everything the 6.5 does + more...



Johan

no it dont...

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
NObody(!!) has ever talked about 300yd+ shots with a 308 that I am conversant with, but the 6.5x55 is noted as a flat shooting long range plains game rifle here in the USA.

Rich
DRSS

Um .. ah ... you ARE kidding, right? Last I checked our military snipers were using that 7.62 NATO round ... Guess they don't drop the hammer if the target is over 300 yards ... somebody better tell them that.

I wanna watch.

Read a article in pedersens rifle shooter about 1000yard competition, what caliber?... the 308!! Also isn't the 308 loaded to higher pressure than that old 6.5x55.??

I would say that there are ten folds more rifles made for long distanse shooting in the 308 than the 6.5... 6.5 is for women and kids... (And there are women of both sexes..)



Johan

308win...have you not heard of the 6.5-284?

Boys, boys, boys...

Most of the small bore sniping in Iraq is being done with the Remington M24 platform, last intel says it is a dual bolt/barrel combo in 308/300WM. Most of the shooting is being done with the 300WM according to Jane's reports. Of course, what we hear is about the 50BMG work done past a mile. The military teams have been shooting the 6.5-284 for a couple years now at High Power matches, Camp Perry, et al. Most civilians are shooting the 223 with the 80gr VLD-style bullets. The 308 has fallen out of favor due to the fact that even with the USMC pushing the dual experiments of getting Sierra to make a special 155gr "Palma Bullet" and the LC run of balloon-head 308 brass; they were not able to keep the round supersonic at the 1000 yard butts reliable. When a bullet drops from super to sub sonic there is a short period of time when it is "Transsonic". The shockwave in front and behind the bullet changes shape, and there is a subsequent yaw or flutter to the bullet. It does goofy things in that unstable mode.

Rich
DRSS

Heard about it.. Looked for one in a sauer sniper type rifle. Was thinking about a seal un. It turned out that it only came in 308w Also, factory ammo?? Can you get it? Even if you live far into the bush, like I do back home??

Also when you say 6.5, in my neck of the woods, that is a 6.5x55. Sæks å halv sjø..

And why do they keep calling it swedish mauser? It's not a mauser, and not swedish, it's a kaliber made by a comitie from Norway and Sweden.

It's so boring when everyone agrees that this and that caliber is the best!



Johan

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
thought this could get intesting...

it is a do all bore that can do everything that the 22 through 30 can do!

I happen to agree. This is a point of view I have held since about 1960, when I got my first sweet little 6.5X55 Swedish Mauser. After comparing its performance (140-grain bullets) with most other rounds in the caliber range you listed, particularly at 300 yards and beyond, I was just amazed! What's even more amazing, to me anyway, is how long it is taking us Yankees (& REBELS) to figure this out, as it seems the Europeans have known this all along!

These days I usually reach for a 7X57mm when it comes time to use a modern rifle. But is this because I think the 7X57mm is better? No! It is because I just don't happen to have a decent 6.5X55 any more. And that's my fault, of course.......

Re: 308 sniping, I sure as heck would not stick my head up if the enemy, when a marine sniper was looking my way! With all the years into training with ONE gun, ONE load, ONE type of mil dot sight, and all the training they get, with a spotter, and ability to 'range' an estimated 6 foot tall target, death is very probable.

That said, I still think a 6.5 is better for me, and if the military ever converted, I don't think they would have anything to lose, except maybe carrying 26 grains of extra weight x # of rounds carried. It may not be much for snipers....they shoot one at a time! But I would be very interested in how an equally built 260 would do versus a 308 from 500-1000 yds. I know you would have to 're-calculate' for less drop, and drift when using a 6.5 vs 308.

No, I have no lack of faith in the sniper training/snipers trained but I do feel there may be a better way. Surely the 300's, and other high intensity rounds, 338 Lapua, Cheytac's, and 50 BMG based rifles for tactical use were built to 'better 308 ballistics' and they do.

Ok, for you 6.5x55 fans. A question.

I was thinking of going with a .250 Savage to pair with a 6.3x62 or .375H&H. To use for varmit (not all day prarie dog shooting)& small game and the occasional whitetail or small PG.

But.. after reading about the 6.5x55.
Whats are your thoughts about the benefits of the the 6.5x55 for the above use, instead of the .250 Savage. Or for this application is the .250 Savage better.

Allen

I use a 6.5-06 for long distance prairie rat shootin. Made the 1000 yd Club last summer with it.

Excuse my 'TIA' but small PG? It sounds like your intended game is deer seldom, varmints often, that said, I might chose the 250-3000, it is one I have not used....yet, but admired. An AI version might be worth doing, as it 'kicks it up a notch' and high return on investment so to speak, but not necessary, as the standard, esp. with lighter bullets used on varmints should do plenty.