Recently purchased a 25wssm in a Browning A-Bolt FLD. So far it seems to shoot quite well and is reasonably close to published velocities. I also have the same make rifle in 223wssm and it shoots very well and is un beatable shooting prairie rats when the wind blows 40. Are they just too much of the same thing compared to the rest of the marketplace? Why did NONE catch on? (I do think the 25 should have been the WSM case).

I really like my M70 FWT 25WSSM. TO me it's a modern, 257 Roberts AI on a short action. Really a handy little gun. Not sure why they didn't catch on. Maybe bad timing with so many other new cartridges being introduced during the same time period, plus Winchester New Haven's demise?

And you are right, seems a lot of foks "hate" them. Don't understand that either. No one is forced to buy one. More options are almost always good.

And I'm SURE someone will say they are the answer to a question that nobody asked!

Personally I have heard a lot of negative about barrel wear. I have absolutely no evidence to back up the rumor. Its just what I have heard. I don't own either but I am curious. Especially about the 25 WSSM. DW

The reason they did not catch on is that they do not offer anything more/better than what we already had/have and some, evidently many, did not buy into the marketing hype.
In Lyman's latest reloading manual the 25 wssm is compared to the 25-06, ok. Then that makes them both fine performers. You can buy 25-06 ammo everywhere and use numerous other cases to reload it. Not so w/ the wsm/wssms. AND they overhyped them w/o the info/facts to back up their claims. Despite their best efforts and claims, the 325 wsm is not the equal of the 338WM, nor is the 300wsm the equal of the 300WM. Do the research, their claims do not hold water.
There's nothing wrong w/ them, they're just not better or replacements

Not really against them but I sure don't want one. Just another marketing gimmick based on the short and fat idea to stimulate sales. As previously stated, they are not any better than what is already availible.

Don't want to argue with a Corpus boy.

But I will just say the 25WSSM, IMO doesn't seem to be over hyped. I have chronoed the factory loads in mine and they perform just as advertised. Moreover, the velocities are just about the same as factory 120gr loads in my 24" bbl 25/06. Of course the '06 case has more powder capacity, so it has the potential to be loaded higher.

But then my 25/06 is substantially heavier and longer than the 25WSSM.

Take it FWIW.

Barrel wear be damned I would have thought the 223 version would have caught on. There are always those - many of those that need the fastest and the wssm223 is that. 4400fps with the 40 grain b-tip is just getting rolling. Maybe those folks all got one and there just aren't enough people like that. I think I will try to find a reasonably priced featherweight in 243 to finish out the trio.

I LOVE my .25WSSM!! It is a M-70 FWT. She was a little fussy from the start, but proper bedding and a trigger job made it a winner.
I also had to experiment quite a bit with loads.
My favorite load is the Barnes 80gr.TTSX with H-4895 and a CCI BR-2 primer. Accuracy is amazing (moa to sub moa consistantly) for such a light whippy barreled little rifle. It pops along at just over 3500 fps. It will be just the thing for these little Wa. State Whitetails.
I've had a bunch of different .25's over the years. Everything from a .250/3000 to a .257 Wby. The .25 WSSM simply fills the bill for me.
I really come to appreciate the super short action too.

If I was presented with the opportunity to snag a WSSM AR15 upper at a reasonable price I'd be immediately digging in the savings account.

The cartridge line makes sense in an AR15!

in anything else it's the epitome of pointlessness

quote:

in anything else it's the epitome of pointlessness

Why? In 25WSSM, it makes a rifle that is a lot lighter, and handier than a 25/06, and offers the same factory ballistics. Is that pointless?

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:

quote:

in anything else it's the epitome of pointlessness

Why? In 25WSSM, it makes a rifle that is a lot lighter, and handier than a 25/06, and offers the same factory ballistics. Is that pointless?

I'm sorry but the real numbers don't bear out this kind of HYPE

25wssm A-Bolt Composite Stalker
Weight 6lbs 2oz

Overall length 40 7/8"

25-06 A-Bolt Composite Stalker
weight 6lbs 11oz

Overall length 42 3/4"


I'm sorry but 9 ounces (10%) lighter and an 1 7/8" (4%) shorter is not a "lot" handier

quote:

9 ounces (10%) lighter and an 1 7/8" (4%) shorter is not a "lot" handier

Well, that may be your not-so-humble opinion, but here is a little perspective:

1) FWIW, I have never owned an X Bolt but the current Browning website lists the 25/06 at 44 7/8" and 6lb 14oz (with BOSS), no WSSM listed

2) just for perspective, the difference between a M70 sporter and M70 FWT is 4oz and 2 1/4" (and they handle a lot different, IMO)

3)My M70 FWT 25WSSM weights 6 lbs and is 41" long

a) that is 20oz lighter and 1/1/2" shorter than my M70 FWT 270
b) that is 12oz lighter than a M77 Ultra Light in 243 (it is 1" longer but has 2" more barrel)
c) that is 3/4" longer than a M7 Remington in 243 (no weight listed) but the barrel is 2" longer.

You may not think such a rifle is a lot handier, but I and many others do. Pick one up sometime and see for yourself.

I think they look funny....that's my only view on the subject.

quote:

Originally posted by Quintus:
Why did NONE catch on? ...

Back when they were first released, there was all kinds of "Feeding Jam" issues in the (rag)M70s coming out of YANKEE Land. They released it before they had all the Dimensions where they needed to be for positive, reliable Feeding. You can find a bunch of posts concerning this problem on the GunSmith Board. Now it appears that most all the companies offering them have worked out those issues.

Which brings us to $$$Cost/Shot$$$. The typical guy who Hunts is not a Reloader. He buys ammo at the local Wal-Mart when it is "On-Sale" just before Hunting Season. When he realizes he can buy a box of 30-06 or 308Win size cartridges for 1/3rd to 1/2 the cost, he goes for the less expensive ammo and the rifles which use it.

The same majority does not Practice a lot, so the Game they Hunt needs to be relatively close " if " they have a chance of Killing it. Here again the regular cartridges typically do fine, with no need for anything special.

The WSMs and WSSMs fit into a small nitch market and typically perform well for anyone who wants them.

I have two brownings one composit stalker 25 and one medalion 223 trhey both work great the 25 is the greatest little hunting rifle I have had in many years. I worked at a shop and spent about 30 hours playing with the 25-06 comp stalker and the 25wssm comp stalker. by tape and scale they are not that different. by feel they are a world apart. the 25 wssm has been fantastic with barnes tsx 100 gr.

If someone asked me if they thought a rifle that only holds two cartridges in it's magazine will catch on in the USA, I would have said no way!
Not unless it offers something that no other cartridge can do better.

Also I heard that the WSSM line of cartridges didn't feed well. I hope that rumor is B.S. but knowing what crap came out of the Winchester New England factory prior to its shut down I'm not surprised that such a rumor started in the first place as it probably occurred on some sloppily made rifles then went viral.

I wonder if Winchester will ever build rifles in those WSSM chamberings again?

Have you ever needed more than 3 shots for deer hunting?

I bought a 25 WSSM and a .243 WSSM, both Browning A-Bolts. Both shoot well, in fact I am quite impressed with them. I had a .257 Wby and love it, wanted to utilize more of the .25 caliber bullets I had acquired for the Weatherby. My ulterior motive on both was 6 grandsons and a grandaughter that will become shooters and hunters, as two have already proven to be. The short stubby cases in my opiniion are living up to their accuracy hype, if you are willing to shot them enough to find the loads they like. I do think they will have a future, time will tell. My son and grandsons already have grown to like them very much because of their accuracy and light weight handeling abilities. I shoot them often myself perfecting the loads and find them very pleasent to test shoot. Good shooting.

I'm a fan of the .243 WSSM. If you think it offers no performance advantage over the .243 Winchester, you need to do some checking. It's common to see reports here of 1/2 MOA accuracy with the WSSM's and mine does the same.

In a related issue, I'm amazed at the accuracy that factory Browning rifles produce. I have custom barreled actions that don't shoot as well.

My somewhat simple minded opinion is this: The WSSMs potentially offer better accuracy because of the shorter fatter column of gas. The cartridges all use the same principle that made the PPC cartridges so accurate, if I understand correctly.

Now, having said that, here are the drawbacks, as I see them:

1) Not a whole lot more velocity than previous cartridges of the same caliber;
2) As has been stated above, severe limitations in magazine capacity
3) There ARE feeding problems with some calibers.
4) Pretty much a handloading only option, as the calibers didn't ever really take off.
5) Very few bullets capable of taking the stresses of impacting a body at the higher velocities without coming apart (Barnes style bullets are the exception, but again you are talking about handloading for the rifles).
6) Higher velocities at .243 and .257 diameters messes up a whole lot more meat.

In short, the WSSMs were designed to get folks to buy another caliber. I think their detractions outweigh the improved accuracy over other chamberings in the same caliber, and I can get the improved accuracy by handloading...

Just my opinion(s), but I will keep my "standard" calibers, thank you.

Neither, don't even see a reason to start messing with them...

they will come and go and never raise an ounce of interest in me..

The 25 wssm interests me. I really like 25 caliber rifles and probably someday will buy a wssm. I have a 250 Savage and a 257 roberts and those are both great cartridges, but will someday give 25 wssm a try. It just seems like a well balanced cartridge to me, not too overbore, not very long, not much kick, but still very good performance.

I'm waiting for the super duper short action mag (WSDSM). The bolt throw will be 1" an it will fire bullets at Weatherby speeds.

Scott, that sounds great. A 22 rimfire sized action firing a 100 or 115 grain 25 cal bullet at 3500? you bet, I'll take two. DW

Well, we really don't need any new cartridges anyway, do we?

We didn't need the 243,.....we already had the 6mm Lee Navy.

We didn't need the .308.....we already had the 30-06, 300 Savage and the 30-40 Krag.

We didn't need the 25-06.....we already had the 257 Roberts and the 250 Savage.

We certainly didn't need the .260 because we already had the tried and true 6.5x55.

You get the point.

Personally, I like new cartridges. I do have a M70 in 25 WSSM and it performs pretty well. I did have some feeding issues but got them worked out quickly. I get 2900+ fps with a 117-120 gr bullet and almost 3200 with a 100 gr bullet. It works for me.

I have several rifles chambered in older cartridges, too. I like them just fine but, I don't bad mouth all the new ones that I have no use for.

BTW, Happy Father's Day.

quote:

Originally posted by Krochus:
I'm sorry but 9 ounces (10%) lighter and an 1 7/8" (4%) shorter is not a "lot" handier

That's an opinion masquerading as an argument.

First off, 7/8's shorter throw is closer to 40% shorter than 4%.....

Second, guys spend half a month's wages on custom gunsmithing to achieve such improvements

Third, the weight savings are in the action, which moves the center of gravity closer to the shooter. Weight is far less of a problem for "small statured shooters" than weight on the forward hand.

I put together a 223WSSM just to see what it does. Turns out, is does what you would expect it to. I'm not a "fan" of the 223, because the neck thickness, but the 25WSSM is probably the best factory cartridge for a smaller hunter in 90% of the US territory. JMO, Dutch.

I don't hate them, but don't see a need for them. An answer to a question not asked.

I don't find them particularly interesting, however, i'm not opposed to new cartridges and I sometimes like differant things. I have talked with a fellow who had a 25 wssm. He definately had the feeding issues that Hot Core mentioned. That was a winchester action. I know another guy with the A-bolt, never had problems. No surprise to me, as i agree with what has been said. The New Haven final batches of guns were a lot of junk. Not all of them, but many. I have no trouble believing that the guns were turned out before the bugs were worked out.

I think the only reason they never caught on was the VERY limited choices in guns chambered for them.That's enough to kill any round no matter how good it might be old or new.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr. Lou:
I don't hate them, but don't see a need for them. An answer to a question not asked.

Almost every cartridge invented since 1920 (or so) is redundant. True?

True. With cartridges like the 6.5x55,7x64, 9.3x62, 30-06, 375 H&H, the hunting world had it's bases covered. That's why I have and use all those listed. However, the WSMs, WSSMs, SAUMs, RCMs, etc are getting ridculous.

In theory the short fat cartridges are more accurate then the more traditional cartridges we've all grown to know an love. Of course this theoretical increase in accuracy really doesn't matter unless it comes in a gun with a properlly free-floated, stress relived barrel, bedded action, and a decent trigger pull.

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:
I really like my M70 FWT 25WSSM.

Ditto!

JC

quote:

However, the WSMs, WSSMs, SAUMs, RCMs, etc are getting ridculous.

Are they really ridiculous compared to many other "accepted" cartridges? Compared to the 300 Winchester, the 257 Weatherby, and the 7 Remington Mag, is the 25 WSSM really so ridiculous? Which of these four cartridges commit the "sin" of being the most overbore?

Was it ridiculous when the 300 Winchester was created even though the 30-06 already existed? Or going back even further, was the 30-06 a waste given the 8x57 already existed? Of course it wasn't a waste, but I get a kick out of how new cartridges are criticized when almost every cartridge in the last 100+ years would be a waste using their criteria.

If the 25-06 were created today, the criticism would be similar to what we hear about the 25 wssm. Why do we need it? What does it offer over what already exists? The critics would just say, "It must just be the greedy manufacturers just trying to fool everybody and squeeze another dollar out of the abused consumer."

The gunmakers are are not trying to dupe us, they are competeing for market share like every other business. There are so many dollars a year that are going to spent on rifles by the consumer. They take a risk by R&D and retooling in hopes that when Little Johnny is ready to buy his first they can catch his eye, or that when Ol Fred finally saved up enough for a GOOD rifle they can fill the bill. I'm hoping to see the 6.5wsm.

They never caught my eye or stirred any interest.

I necked up a case to 35. It is pretty cute.
358 Win in a 6lb package is pretty cool.
I shot the 50 Super Short shooting 300 grain hornadies @ 2550 FPS Reeeeeeal sweet!!!

I like the 25wssm, which is why I bought one. Is it a 25-06? No, but its close. Yes you can hotrod a 25-06 pretty fast but don't kid yourselves when you start loading over book, you're wildcatting pure and simple because you ARE outside of SAAMI specs.

The 25wssm to me, is a 257 Rob AI without having a custom gun chambered or being stuck strictly to reloads only. Look at the numbers, they're nearly identical.

As to the "answer/question" thing, like mentioned the bases have been covered LONG before the majority of our "standards" have been around.

In some configurations the various mini mags can meet and sometimes beat their longer counter parts. Its all up to how that company loads a particular cartridge.

And for my favorite comparison about the not needed yada yada....everyones beloved 300 Win Mag was NOT needed! 2 arguements
1. Already had the time/game tested and proven 300 H&H, and it could be pushed faster by handloading (famous arguement for standards)
2. We already had the 300 Wby almost what, 2 decades earlier? The Winchester wasn't faster, or even close to matching. Oooh but it was.....shorter? Hmm, funny back then 1/4" shorter was a huge thing in the shooting world but another 1/4" shorter now is silly. Winchesters and Remingtons always had long enough magazines to hold the H&H and Wby so its not like more expensive actions can be sited.


Btw I am selling my 25wssm currently if anyones looking and its because of the rifle style, not the rifles function or the cartridge. I just don't want a heavy bench/varmint style big game rifle anymore. Its a M70 PFCRF hybrid Coyote Limited, brown laminate with matte black action and SS barrel. Mounts and dies included

They are a great addition to the AR platform as well... These are a wildcatter's dream

ummmmmmmmmmmmm...

don't hate em, just don't see the point except as an exercise in engineering.

I'm designing a whole new series of cartridges using a golfball-size case made of cartridge brass with a short neck. It will look pretty much like a Christmas Tree ornament with its short neck for attaching the holder for the limb.
My idea is that the round case will allow for a simultaneous burn of the powder, with equal and even pressure and the rotation will provide a venturified effect that increases velocity and reduces pressure. The bolt will look like an ice cream scoop with a hemi shaped chamber.

Rich
DRSS