quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
ummmmmmmmmmmmm...

don't hate em, just don't see the point except as an exercise in engineering.

I'm designing a whole new series of cartridges using a golfball-size case made of cartridge brass with a short neck. It will look pretty much like a Christmas Tree ornament with its short neck for attaching the holder for the limb.
My idea is that the round case will allow for a simultaneous burn of the powder, with equal and even pressure and the rotation will provide a venturified effect that increases velocity and reduces pressure. The bolt will look like an ice cream scoop with a hemi shaped chamber.

Rich
DRSS

You should look into multiple, electrically-fired primers around the southern meridian of the case for ultra-accurate, instantaneously-consistent ignition.

Barstooler

Would I join the hype around the WSM's .... with scarcity of both ammo and cartridge cases in my country? The answer is no! Here is some of my observations ....

As more and more cases are designed for cartridges, we run into a problem by just simply referring to a case as either short or long. Standard length cases refer to 30-06 Spr category (63 mm) and Magnum length to the 300 H&H (73 mm) category. Later, with the development of the 300 Win Mag, the name "standard length magnum" case came about (66 mm). When the 308 Win was launched, it was considered to have a short case (51.18 mm), as it was shorter than the 7 x 57 mm case (Mauser built them on intermediate length actions specifically for the 57 mm case length). The 6 mm Remington features a case length that is just a tad shorter at 56.72 mm. The recent proliferation of cases has complicated this designation because Winchester introduced a short case called the WSM (Winchester Short Magnum) in their 300 WSM (53.34 mm) and another shorter one, the WSSM (Winchester Super Short Magnum (42.55 mm), whilst the PPC is even shorter at 38.18 mm. As cases became shorter, they also became fatter, as it is believed that the shorter powder column burns more efficiently, and because it resembles the 6 mm PPC, manufacturers all latch on to it and claim enhanced accuracy, even though it has not been conclusively demonstrated with the myriad of new cartridges that have now been developed.

This what Chuck Hawks has to say ... "I think that the popularity of short, fat cartridges is simply a fad, driven by clever marketing. Just as zoot suits were a fad in the 1940's and bell-bottom trousers were a fad in the 1970's. The first fad of the 21st Century has brought us short, very fat, rifle cartridges. I doubt that the shape of the case actually makes much practical difference (within reasonable limits) in hunting cartridges, even when fired in specialised varmint rifles. Other factors in the rifle/cartridge/load equation are far more important."

The 300 WSM is probably the most sucessful offering of the lot, but the hype has cascaded down to the WSSM's on which I will concentrate.

The .243 WSSM looks like a bloated version of the 6mm PPC. The PPC was actually intended for single shot target rifles and not for magazine rifles. The .243 WSSM has a rebated rim design just like all the other WSM cartridges - the rim diameter is .535" and the case head is .555". The shoulder angle is 28 degrees and the case length is 1.675". It shoots a .243" bullet and the specified rifling twist is 1 turn in 10", the same as for the .243 Winchester. What makes it better than a 243 Win? The velocity is more by a mere 100 fps at 3,110 fps. With its shorter and stubbier case, its sharper neck and its rebated case, manufacturers are busy solving feeding problems in magazine rifles - they are simply better used in single shot rifles such as for competition shooting where a round is inserted manually by hand. The .243 WSSM might be slightly faster than the 243 Win, but it cannot beat the 6 mm Remington, built on a standard short action. Also, it is by far inferior to the real .243 calibre Magnum cartridges or even the wildcats such as the 6mm-284 and the 6mm-06. Browning and Winchester were the first gun manufacturers to announce rifles for the .243 WSSM cartridge, based on their super short versions of the A-Bolt II and Model 70 bolt actions. Most of its velocity advantage over the standard .243 Winchester is lost in the short barrels, 21-inch and 22-inch barrels, that are being fitted by Browning and Winchester. Where is the niche?

The .223 WSSM is really the same as the 243 WSSM, it only shoots a smaller calibre bullet like the .223 Remington – a 55 grain bullet at 3,850 fps and a 64 grain bullet at 3,600 fps. Its short and fat case, wide shoulder, and rebated rim make it a nightmare to feed from the magazine - a jam might just happen, when you have to chamber quickly and so loose your buck. Browning has been forced to delay the release of their super short action rifles due to feeding problems (the A-Bolt II is a push feed action) and the extremely rapid barrel erosion. Winchester have now solved their feeding problem with their new hybrid "controlled round push feed" action. I am of the opinion that both the 243 and 223 WSSM, just like the 6 mm PPC and 22 PPC, will serve better at the bench than as hunting cartridges. Custom building them, require that special action and adapted magazine to avoid any feeding problems. These shorter cartridges require an action that is half an inch shorter than the WSM. If a benchrest cartridge is what you seek, stay with the proven 6 mm PPC, but in a benchrest rifle with a single shot action; then there is no problem.

Here is another interesting quote for you, by Jim Carmichel ... "The 6PPC wins at least 9 out of every 10 benchrest championships and thus can be justly promoted as the most accurate cartridge on earth. Yet during the brief period that it was offered in a more or less standard-grade factory rifle, it proved no more accurate than that rifle's other chamberings. So if you want an accurate wildcat, build an accurate rifle first." The 6 mm PPC is even shorter than the WSSM's - the case is only 1.503 inch long (38.18 mm) with a shoulder angle of 30 degrees.

Warrior

don't you have something bad to say about the 25WSSM?

Were the comments on the 223 and 243WSSM's your words or Chuck Hawks?

I neither love nor hate 'em. I simply haven't found a nich for them as other cartridges can and do offer similar ballistic performance. And for me, an extra few fps means little as accuracy, shot placement and matching the bullet to not only the game but the velocity window being used is what brings home the bacon, so to speak.

quote:

Were the comments on the 223 and 243WSSM's your words or Chuck Hawks?

They are mine, and it is the way I see it - if these cartridges are liked or preferred over others then that is fine by me, as we all make choices. It is actually about individual choices that we all make.

Warrior


Warrior

Warrier: I agree it's all a personal choice. And I'm glad that we (at least for now) still have a choice. The reason for the question was that some of the comments, such as

quote:

Winchester have now solved their feeding problem with their new hybrid "controlled round push feed" action.

..seem a little dated considering that Winchester has not made the CRPF actions for over 4 years now. Indeed they haven't made any WSSM's since New Haven was shut down in '06 unless I am mistaken.

You are quite right, I wrote this piece way back in 2005 - I just copied and pasted it for expediency and should actually have edited that one sentence.

The real question or debate here if you like, revolves around whether or not the WSM's and WSSM's will survive the next decade, or even better yet, survive like the old classics for 100 years and more such as the 30-06 Spr, to mention just one.

Likewise, how does the short cased magnum of Remington doing? On the other end of the scale we can also ask about the future of Remingtons's Ultra-Magnums. They tried to tap the market by going 'short' and 'long'. Questions is ... will it be a sustainable cash stream for them or whoever takes them over? Or will the hunters not follow the bait ...

Warrior

Love or Hate?

Oddly, neither one. I have an A-bolt varmint stalker in 25WSSM I bought from a friend, and it's the only cartridge I have ever thought of as "cute". It shoots well but not wonderfully, and I'm still needing to work up it's favorite loads.

I consider the .25 the most useful version, and it is likely the easiest on barrels, but am still concerned with the longterm availability of brass.....even though the brass seems quite tough.

I am not a WSM fan, but the 25 WSSM seems to be one short magnum capable of putting heavier bullets to good use. I do see the magazine capacity as a hunting drawback, as multiple shots can be useful in predator hunting--about the only use beyond targets I might have for this one in AK.

Cheers,

Dan

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:

3)My M70 FWT 25WSSM weights 6 lbs and is 41" long

a) that is 20oz lighter and 1/1/2" shorter than my M70 FWT 270.

olarmy - I have wondered about the differences in dimensions. Can you measure the action length and the receiver diameter of both your 25WSSM and 270Win Featherweights and share that? It would be interesting to know.

Grenadier:

The diameter appears to be almost exactly the same. I'm no machinist, but by removing the bolts and measuring the horizontal distance across the actions, at the rear, just above the stock, I got 1.33" and 1.34" for the 25 and the 270 respectively.

The length of the 270 action, along the right side from the barrel to just in front of the bolt handle is 6 3/8".

For the WSSM, the measurement is 5 1/8"

Well that would account for most of the 1-1/2" difference in length of the rifle but not 20 ounces of weight. I imagine most of the weight savings is the result of a different contour barrel.

Winchester lists 25WSSM loads and 25-06 loads with the exact same velocity. So it looks like the 25WSSM allows a 1-1/4" shorter rifle to be built with a little less weight than a comparable 25-06. The trade-off is that you lose magazine capacity.

The arguments in favor and against are moot. I just looked at what Winchester is cataloging and there are NO WSSM offerings in any of their rifles. My guess is that within a very short time the WSSM cartridges will suffer the same fate as the 25 Remington cartridge and the 32 Winchester Self Loading cartridge. Without rifles being made ammo production will stop and cases will become all but impossible to get as the cartridges fade into obsolesence. I always thought the 25 Remington was a good idea.

I have a 25wssm Brownign Medallion....love it. Super accurate and has killed 14 deer. Still like my 25-06 but there is a place for the 25wssm. Needed???? Not anymore than the 308's that compliments my battery of 30-06's!!

More rifles the better! Varierty is the spice of life! Women and guns

Grenadier

The stock on the WSSM is also quite a bit shorter than the 270. Which would save some weight, too.

And I'm not too concerned about obsolesence. I can still buy ammo and components for my 225Win and my 264, which have been commercially dead for quite a while.

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:
Grenadier

The stock on the WSSM is also quite a bit shorter than the 270. Which would save some weight, too.

And I'm not too concerned about obsolesence. I can still buy ammo and components for my 225Win and my 264, which have been commercially dead for quite a while.

I'm not surprised about availability of 225Win and 264. The 225 is used for a lot of wildcats so there is a market for the brass. The 264 fills a niche and custom rifles are often built in that caliber so there has always been a small demand for ammo and brass. Also, the 264 could easily fit into a production run of short magnum brass. If need be, it can easily be formed from commonly available cases that are similar.

I don't know if there are or if there ever will be any wildcats based on the WSSM. What would you use as a starting case if you wanted to form some WSSM brass?

You make some good points, and I don't disagree.

But consider that Winchester still makes loaded ammo for the 225 and 264. The 225 ammo must be produced for non-reloaders, not for wildcat building.

And since the 264 ammo produced by Winchester and Remington is pretty anemic and provides about 270 performance, it would seem to be manufactured for those non-reloaders who happen to have a 264 made decades ago.


Another thought, I just looked on MidwayUSA, and they list brass for over 300 cartridges and ammo for almost 200, many of which I have never heard of. My only point is that IMO, the concern that ammo/brass may become unavailable in the future for non-popular cartridges seems to be a little overblown. And the manufacturers, with few exceptions, seem to do a good job of making ammo/brass available for many years.

Plus forming WSSM brass out of it's parent brass shouldn't be that hard of a trick..
Going by what I see up here the WSM's are going to be around for a long time..

Grenadier..
Here is a link to a popular WSSM wildcat..
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=42358

If you pay enough you will always be able to find brass for any cartridge.

To me the WSSM line is neither fish nor fowl. If you like them then by all means procure rifles chambered for them and have fun shooting. I don't see any reason other than personal preference to own one but personal preference is reason enough.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
If you pay enough you will always be able to find brass for any cartridge.

To me the WSSM line is neither fish nor fowl. If you like them then by all means procure rifles chambered for them and have fun shooting. I don't see any reason other than personal preference to own one but personal preference is reason enough.

Did you fire Michael458's 500B&M SS while in Paso?

Yes, I believe that was one of the rifles there. The 500 I shot there was too light for that caliber for my preference. But there was a nice, short little 458 that was based on one of the new cases. I really enjoyed shooting that rifle. To me it was like shooting a hot 45-70 in a little bolt gun. If I was going to get one though, I'd probably have it made in .458 American and use trimmed standard magnum brass. I think performance would be comparable. Not that there is anything wrong with the cartridge I shot, just a matter of personal preference.

Upon further consideration, I think those cartridges are useful as a basis for large caliber wildcats. I don't think you could build a short .50 caliber rifle on any other non-rimmed case.

Had a beautiful Featherweight Stainless Model 70. Absolutely gorgeous. Absolutely, Positivly, under no circumstance would it feed from the magazine. Factory loads, handloads wouldnt do it. Oh and did I mention the 4-5 inch groups at 100 yds. Kind of soured me on the whole short mag phenomenon. Man was that rifle pret.ty

The problem with a lot of short mags or any new cartridge is not so much performance. It becomes a "retail liability". Retailers have to tie-up additional inventory dollars in new calibers, multiplied by various bullet weights, different grades of the same ammo (premium vs standard) and this becomes a liability for a small retailer who is struggling to have working capital. These cartridges may be superior to older cartridges or they may offer nothing in improvements. However, when I looked at them several years ago I knew that many would be destined for "obsolete" bin. They just won't generate long term sales for retailers to promote them. Even the box stores or outdoor superstores like Cabelas will not offer retail shelf space to some eclectic, slow moving and marginalized ammunition in the years to come. Many of these short magnums will be relegated to the world of handloading. My guess is a lot of these rifles will be re-barreled to more standard cartridges in the next 30 years.

I have finally put a couple rounds through the Browning in 25WSSM. It feeds ok, but shoots surprisingly well. Started with Sierra 90 grain GKs and 48 grains of H414. Bolt opens fine and primers look good and the holes all end up in the same 1" square. I think if this rifle had a better trigger I would be calling it perfect. Recoil seems about the same as most 25-06s i've shot with sporter 24s, but it is easily more comfortable to carry and it points like a dream. I think I will hang onto it until November. When I get a little more time and the mercury drops a touch I will clock these and see how they measure up.

Hey guys, I hope I am not intruding on the Small Bore forum, normally I am upstairs a bit from you guys, no insult intended. Just happened to see the WSSM and peaked my interest. I love the WSSMs, and hope they never stop making them, they make really fine little guns! Especially if you make a bigger bore out of them!






Michael

OK OK, I am sorry, my apologies, I know that I should not have done the post above.

On thread, I actually did get interested in a couple of the WSSMs after making bigger bores out of the rifles. I kept a 25 and 223 in featherweight versions and in the Ultimate versions to play with. When you take into consideration the size of the rifle and the 25 WSSM it really makes a nice little .25. I carried an Ultimate 25WSSM on a goat hunt in Mongolia in 2007, and climbing those mountains there was wonderful with that little light gun. I never shot a goat with it, but it sure was nice to carry and easy on me. I still have it and its set up exactly as I had it in 2007. It shoots 3 100 gr Barnes TSX in a hole at 100 yds at 3100 fps, which is not smoking for some 25s, but it's enough to do anything I would do with a 25.

Well I liked the 25 pretty good, so decided to play with a 223. Same story, it's a smoker in those little guns. I can't remember all the loads I had, but it is an extremely fast little cartridge for such a tiny little gun with a 22 inch barrel. Not a prairie varmint shooter, little too hot for that steady shooting I think, but man I could run 55s at way over 3600 and not even try hard. I played with some Barnes 36 gr bullets at 4200 fps in that 22 inch Ultimate. Wild.

But I have to admit, I am keeping the 25WSSMs and 223WSSMs I have, but all the rest of them I am going to turn them into .500, .475, and 458 caliber rifles! HEH


Michael

quote:

Originally posted by olarmy:
Have you ever needed more than 3 shots for deer hunting?

I haven't,...but I've seen guys coming off the public land next to me 45 minutes into the season because they shot out the 20 round box already and needed to get to town for more AMMO!

Most guys on these forums shoot more than the "Average" guy so to us it's a mute point,..for Joe sixpack 2.00+ a shot makes for expensive venison!

Wow, wonder how many wounded, crippled deer that guy left in the woods as he headed into town for more ammo?

Maybe if he had to pay $10/shot, he would spend more time practicing, and be more careful with his shots.

I've been shooting the 25 WSSM since 10/04 when I bought a Winchester/USRA 70 Super Shadow at retail. I was so impressed that I've bought or built 14 more during the past 6 years.

I think that Browning/Winchester/USRA hurt the 223 WSSM by only building them with a 1-10" ROT, limiting the weight/length of bullets that will work. I think that a 1-8" ROT would have been a better choice, but nobody asked me.

I'd agree that the WSSMs didn't break any new ground, but they are fun to shoot. Kinda of like owning a 'Vette or 911, not practical, but fun!

My current favorite WSSMs are:

1. Winchester/USRA 70 stainless Ultimate Shadow that is bedded in a McMillan Compact stock. Reasonably light, handy, and shoots good groups.

2. Winchester/USRA 70 CM Super Shdow action, matte finished Ultimate Shadow bottom metal, and Shilen varmint contour stainless barrel all bedded in another McMillan Compact stock.

Jeff

Was there an option for " I don't care"?

I went a different route. I picked up a 25 WSSM AR upper a few years ago. So far it has been a fun round to work with. It has not been hard to load for. I'm trying for a light varmint load and a good primo bullet for bigger game like deer and smaller elk.

I have AR's in five other calibers and this was a logical progression for me.

Greg

FWIW, I contacted SSK regarding the B&M 50 Super Short and got a quote back of $800 to rebarrel a Winchester/USRA 70 Ultimate Shadow. I don't know about you, but paying $800 to barrel a short range bolt gun seems a little expensive. Oh well, I guess that $800 saved is $800 earned.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by 260remguy:
FWIW, I contacted SSK regarding the B&M 50 Super Short and got a quote back of $800 to rebarrel a Winchester/USRA 70 Ultimate Shadow. I don't know about you, but paying $800 to barrel a short range bolt gun seems a little expensive. Oh well, I guess that $800 saved is $800 earned.

Jeff

260remguy,
I have never seen a Winchester/USRA 70 Ultimate Shadow.. How do they compare to the Rem M7 in size and weight?
Thx

I have a Ultimate Shadow in 25 WSSM and it is one of the lightest slimest best handling guns I own. Makes a Model 7 seem big. Mine is very very accurate, have shot groups under 1/2 inch at 100 yards. I have A Coyote and a Stealth II in 25 WSSM also and they are very nice accurate rifles. Have shot the Stealth out to 800 yards and it will hang with the best of them. If I ever do the 500 yard egg shoot this will be the gun I take. I think the 25 WSSM is the best of the factory WSSM's. Now Michael's 458 and 500's are really neat also.

Thanks srose,
I saw a SS Ultimate Shadow in 25 WSSM for sale down in the states a few months ago and almost bid on it but thought it couldn't be any smaller than my M7 and because of importation costs to Canada I let it go..
Sounds by your description I made a mistake as I doubt Winchester will ever make them again..

Couple of other things I'LL say. I have never had any feeding problems with any of my WSSM's and I have both push feed and controled feed guns. The only problems I have had is hard bolt lift with some loads. This is due to bolt thrust and is common in these cartridges. The cases are just so thick they don't expand enough to grab the chamber walls unless the load is at max. Are far as hunting with the 25 WSSM it does a fine job on deer with 115 grain BT's which is the bullet I shoot the most. I also like the 100 grain MK's.

Sam

I have had good luck with all 4 styles of Wincheser/Olin factory ammo:

1. 120 grain PEP (< expensive, but > accurate)
2. 115 grain BST
3. 110 grain AB
4. 85 grain BST

I prefer to reload using reformed Federal 223 WSSM and 243 WSSM brass. It is thinner than the Winchester/Olin brass, so it seals the chamber better and you don't get smoked necks.

When I put together a dedicated 25 WSSM varmint rifle, I selected a 1 in 14" ROT barrel, as I was planning to shoot bullets weighing 90 grains or less. This rifle has now had over 2K rounds down the pipe, mostly 75 grain VMax at around 3700 fps. I started with 200 reformed Federal 243 WSSM cases and have only lost 6, due to split necks. So, after being reloaded x9, I have trimmed the cases twice, when new and after 5 uses, and 97% of the brass still has good, tight, primer pockets.

For varmints, I have used the 75 grain VMax, 87 grain Speer TNT, and 90 grain Sierra BTHP. I have settled on the 75 grain VMax with H4895 as my standard varmint load in both 1 in 10" and 1 in 14" ROT barrels.

For deer, I have used the 75 grain Barnes X, 87 grain Speer HotCore, 100 grain Hornady, 100 grain Partition, and 110 grain AB. I like the 75 grain Barnes and 87 grain Speer HotCore in the 1 in 14" ROT rifle and the 100 grain Partition in the 1 in 10" ROT rifles.

The best accessory that I've bought for my stainless Ultimate Shadow is a McMillan Compact stock. This stock is the standard fiberglass, not the lighter EDGE, and is a significant improvement over the factory synthetic stock. The factory laminated stock on the Coyote works well for point-to-point longer range shooting, but it is too long and heavy for me to carry when still-hunting.

The 25 WSSM is an orphan and ammo is hard to find in most places, but it falls into the 257AI to 25-284 performance range and there isn't anything wrong with that.

Jeff

quote:

Originally posted by 260remguy:

I prefer to reload using reformed Federal 223 WSSM and 243 WSSM brass. It is thinner than the Winchester/Olin brass, so it seals the chamber better and you don't get smoked necks.


Jeff

To reform the 223 WSSM and 243 WSSM are you merely necking up and then fire forming?

Greg

I also trim the brass to a uniform length and sort it by weight, after deburring the primer holes, but that's about it.

Jeff

Thanks. I've got a bunch of 25 but I see the day down the road that it might be hard to get. To able to us the other two would be a real relief.

I run into it occasionally and it is a "close out" so the price is good. I guess I'll start rat holing some of it when I see it.

Greg

I love my 25wssm.
A few years ago I was looking for my "perfect" michigan deer rifle.

I like short handy rifles for trudging through tag alder swamps, so I dislike long actions.

I like to be able to take long shots if necessary.

I wanted as little recoil as possible without worrying about lack of terminal energy. The 25 and 6.5 calibers seem to be just right for whitetail deer.

Given these criteria, what choices did I have besides the 25wssm and 260rem? I chose an inexpensive Win M70 in 25wssm and I get moa accuracy with a 6 pound rifle.

What's not to love?