Last season my grandson took a friend hunting. I had not talked to the hunter until today. He got a 10 point buck and a doe. Both with .223. He said buck was about 60 yards and the doe a little further. He shot both through the boiler room and they dropped on the spot.

What bullet did he use?
Betting the box had picture of a deer on it if it was a factory round..

Low Wall--It was a factory round as he does not reload. He did tell me 55 grain---but I didn't get the brand. Now that I know him., I'll probably find out.

Maybe it was the Barnes Vor-tx ammo.
That is great for deer.

Norwegianwoods---Plain old cup and core such as Remington Core Lokt, or Winchester bulk packed work great. My guess would be he used something similar to that. He doesn't reload. Very good chance it was a Wal Mart special.

All that is well and good, but there are problems: more than one...

To start with, a deer is not a deer... you can shoot all the 100# TX hill country deer you want to with a .223 and potentially never have a problem. But do that with a midwestern whitetail that may go 180 field dressed and see how you luck out. I suspect the results will differ considerably.

Secondly, predict for me how a shot whitetail is going to act, and do it reliably. Well, you can't, can you?

You guys make your blanket statements about the .233 being adequate for deer, and then point at a couple that dropped in their tracks as proof. How many have you shot that ran? And when they ran, how far did they go?

One more time: about ten years ago, I helped my buddy track the second TX hill country deer he shot with his lovable .223 and a 60-grain Nosler Partition. We spent four hours finding this doe; the post mortem showed she was "textbook" lung shot, and we tracked her over 600 yards before she fell. At times the blood drops were no bigger than the head of a pin, and as far as 15 to 20 feet apart.

We found her, but just like the doe a year earlier, she had gone way too far, with virtually no blood trail to follow. I told Bryan then that if he shot another one with that .223 I was going to bend the barrel into a hairpin around his neck.

I ask you these questions:

Why didn't she fall DRT like you guys talk about?

What is the justification for potentially losing an animal every time you pull the trigger because the exit hole doesn't give enough blood to adequately track?

What is your acceptable loss percentage for deer shot with calibers too small to leave a decent exit hole?

Why don't you grown up men shoot a grown up caliber? My now 28 year old son shot his first deer at age nine. He was sitting in my lap when he did it, and used my .270.

Flame away!

It's quite apparant that those deer did not know that they had been hit by the lowly 223 or they most certainly would had not fallen down so quickly.

Doug, Diet Coke all over the laptop... Thanks!

Well, I'm repeating here, but we've shot about a dozen deer on my place with 64 gr Win Power Pts. All died rapidly, the fartherest one ran was about 50 yards and that was because Adam blew his heart up. Fairly typical with heart shots. Of that dozen about 6 or 7 of them were kids first deer using a cut down TC Contender in .223. I don't recall exactly but 4 or 5 of them didn't run at all. Is a .223 the perfect or even a preferred deer cartridge? Obviously not, but it drops deer and hogs BIGGER than 180 pounds in a hurry with good shot placement. I've seen deer disappear shot with 7 mags and various other larger rounds. To repeat, it's where you put it that counts not just the size of the hole.

I've seen it time after time. I'd MUCH rather have a kid shooting a .223 that I've had him practice with a few shots to both allow me to see if he can shoot and to allow the rifle to convince him it isn't going to hurt him when he fires it. Then I've got a kid that can do what it takes to kill a deer, not closing his eyes, screwing his courage up and jerking off a round out of his Daddy's rifle. As a matter of fact, unless the gun fits him and the kid shows that he can handle it, about .243 level is as large as I'll let young kids shoot. Both the parents and the kid, and certainly I, want him to have a good experience which means a dead deer if he has a good shot presented.

Not counting spikes or second year bucks, our mature bucks around here will field dress between 135 and about 170, somewhat less after the rut. Very occasionally one will go more but that is an exceptionlly large bodied deer for this area.

>22 cal. deer rifle especially with cup and core varmint bullets. As a much younger man I've had a lot of mixed results on mule deer with fast moving c&c small caliber light bullets up to and including 62 grainers in 22 and heavier bullets in 6mm X.270 Gibbs IMP and 25-06 IMP.
I'm talking well placed shots and gaping wounds.
Maybe it's human nature to accept only that evidence that proves an individual's point and reject that which puts that individual's point in question .
Fat Cat ! You spin a good yarn but your conclusion is a tad bit questionable to me. When dealing with small framed or sensitive people ( women and children )the .243,6mm with well designed bullets and the 250 -3000 makes far more sense than a fairly fast moving c&c 22 cal. varmint bullet. This even makes more sense if you hand load and taylor make the ammo to fit the individual. roger

quote:

I've seen it time after time. I'd MUCH rather have a kid shooting a .223 that I've had him practice with a few shots to both allow me to see if he can shoot and to allow the rifle to convince him it isn't going to hurt him when he fires it. Then I've got a kid that can do what it takes to kill a deer, not closing his eyes, screwing his courage up and jerking off a round out of his Daddy's rifle. As a matter of fact, unless the gun fits him and the kid shows that he can handle it, about .243 level is as large as I'll let young kids shoot. Both the parents and the kid, and certainly I, want him to have a good experience which means a dead deer if he has a good shot presented.

While the boss and I would prefer people use at minimum .243, I have to go along with Gatogordo on this one. On the bosses properties during our doe/spike hunts, I would rather have a kid shooting a gun they are familiar and confident with, than something they are not familiar with or are afraid of.

Do people take shots with the .223/.224 that they shouldn't, yes, but usually those folks would do the same thing with a .30-06 or a .375 H&H.

I do not feel that .223's/.224's are completely perfect for deer hunting, but I have seen to many deer killed with them to totally check them off the list, especially when being used by someone that is capable of accurately placing their first shot, everytime.

On the other side of the coin, is the fact that few people would attempt to take an actual Trophy Sized deer with a .223/.224 and many on here have stated that fact. It is to me at least, difficult if not impossible to convince anyone the effectiveness of a particular cartridge when openly stating that if it came down to shooting at an actual Trophy Animal, they would not be using the marginal cartridge.

Many of the 223 bambi shooters are adult males that cannot tolerate the recoil of a Daisy Red Ryder. We will NEVER hear those shooters talk about the deer that run off and die. If it did not fall dead then they didn't hit it - how convenient.

My Texas hunting buddy was so impressed with my 6.5 Grendel upper, and what it does to Texas hog, that he talked me out of one at my cost. He has quit hunting deer and hogs with his AR15 in 223 after some disappointments.

Now he is happy to have the AR back in action, in 6.5 Grendel. The accuracy alone is a confidence builder, and gives up nothing compared the the 223 in both accuracy and mild recoil/blast. It's a sweet shooting little cartridge with plenty of power for deer and hogs.

I see no reason to ever use a 223 for anything bigger than Coyotes.

Notice the exit of the 6.5 Hornady bullet, AFTER breaking the neck of this porker. The entrance on the opposite side was perfect - right behind the ear. I was shooting off the top of a levy so the angle was down a bit, passing directly through the neck bone. I was actually sitting in a golf cart while watching the feeder, just before dark. The blood trail on this one was REALLY short. It was really a nice large pool.



KB

This will always be an argument. We have beat this horse over and over.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone say that the .223 is ideal.
Those who argue against the .223 will never change their mind, and those who have used it with good results will always see it as viable.

quote:

Originally posted by BigNate:

I don't think I've ever seen anyone say that the .223 is ideal.

Carpetman thinks it's ideal, and says so --- over and over. He even claims 100% success rate for himself and all his relatives, and everyone he knows who shoots the pea shooter.

KB

Several years ago, when I did not have the experience I now have, I would be in agreement with the nay sayers here. Much, to the contrary of what I would have expected, the .22's have done an outstanding job. Over those several years, I've seen a large number of deer shot with .22's mostly .223 and a couple with .222. All have been with 55 grain cup and core--possibly all were with Winchester Bulk Packed bullet. The two in this thread were not from that bullet. Only 2 moved out of their tracks. One fairly large doe made a dead run of 60 yards or less and piled up dead. This was from a .222. The other was shot with a 22-250 and maybe went 30 yards. All the rest and there have been a bunch dropped in their tracks. I don't wait when the deer is down, I go to them immediately and give finishing shot when needed. I do that with all cals and the rate needing finishing shot is about the same whether larger cal or .22. "Deer not a deer"??? Do some have Kelvar? Haven't ran across those. Large antlers as in "trophy" does not make them bullet proof either. The notion that a bullet ran through a deer's heart, lung or liver or combination thereof
is not going to kill that deer close to where that happens escapes me. This post is about a 10 pointer-- a fairly large one--not a hundred pounder. It was mentioned you can't predict the results. Very true. Completely agree. I think the only thing predictable about shooting an animal is you don't know what will happen until you pull the trigger. If someone has a 100% predictable cartridge--move over Bill Gates as richest man in U.S. This 100percenter will be a HUGE seller. It was stated you run the risk of losing one EVERYTIME ---very true---true of all cals. Why don't grown men use grown cals? The .223 works in grown fashion and the question becomes why not? I certainly question a 9 year old using a .270 every bit as much as that person questions using a .223 on deer. The last thing I want to do is create a flinch in a youngster.

quote:

I certainly question a 9 year old using a .270 every bit as much as that person questions using a .223 on deer. The last thing I want to do is create a flinch in a youngster.

That is why he is my son and not yours... The point is, he was perfectly comfortable with my .270 at nine years of age... What flinch? You show your lack of experience with teaching youngsters to shoot. Teach them to concentrate on watching what is happening in the scope and they never hear the shot or feel the recoil.

Case closed.

Not a nine year old boy, but a fourteen year old girl, and her Dad had worked with her and she used a .270 all the time. On one trip however, and I was there to witness her making the shot, her Dad had not loaded her ammo in the truck when they left their house at 0 dark thirty, and she killed her deer that morning with a well placed shot from her Dad's 700 Remington in .375 H&H.

When we asked her what it felt like shooting the larger gun, she described it as being just a little more of a push than her .270.

A person can use whatever they want to as long as it is legal, and any time they start talking about how a great a job their choice does on deer, it doesn't matter if it was a .22 Hornet or .458 Win. Mag., someone will find fault with their choice.

Hey Kabluey is this buddy that no longer shoots em with a .223 that the one that wounded a deer and let him lay there bellering and flailing around for several hours? You and he failed to do the humane thing and go give a finishing shot. The poor thing got up and you could hear it flailing around but couldn't "track" it down. Would seem if you can hear it, it's pretty close and not a lot of tracking skills needed. Yea I'd quit using a .223 or anything else for that matter. Yes, with the results I've seen repeatedly I do recommend the .223. I'd not recommend it for you---maybe take up knitting. Can't track one you can hear--let it lay there and suffer for hours--that is a hunter?

quote:

Originally posted by BigNate:
This will always be an argument. We have beat this horse over and over.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone say that the .223 is ideal.
Those who argue against the .223 will never change their mind, and those who have used it with good results will always see it as viable.

I don't think the 223 is ideal for deer, but it works well in capable hands and with good bullets.
And in my opinion is it not many cup and core bullets that are good for use on deer.
To many of them are to soft in my opinion.
I have used some good cup and core bullets in a 222 on red stags with good results and the one that moved the most after the shot, fell after 50 yards.
But I always made sure to make perfect body shots on broadside shots.

A comment to Doubless.
Things can happen when hunting. Once I shot a running Red deer hind at 40 meters with my 30-06 and a 180 grains Norma Vulcan and hit her right behind the shoulder and mid hight. A center double lung shot.
She ran 400+ meters before she dropped, and it was not much blood to be found when we tracked her on the snow.
If my experience then should decide my mind about 30-06 for red deer, I would say it was totally useless, but I knew better after years of experience.

I mentioned the Vor-tx ammo and the Barnes bullets in my previous post in this thread as those bullets have in my opinion made the 223 a much more reliable cartridge to use for deer.

I totally understand that people get a negative opinion about the 223 for deer if they have experienced hunters using the 223, use whatever cheap cup and core bullet they can get and shoot at the deer at any distances and angles.

My thoughts as said before, have not changed. "I agree that it isn't a perfect choice for everyone. I'm not going to go there and think the same about bigger cartidges as well. People who can't shoot a .223 effectively won't be able to shoot anything that recoils much either.
I am at a point where I've seen enough shot that I think what the bullet comes out of has less to do with effectiveness than the construction of the bullet. Given of course proper placement.
I've seen the results of the hyper velocity fan using varmint bullets at velocities above proper threshold, I've seen the monometal fans using them going to slow to get them to open up. Magnum fans that believed the size of the gun would make up for their lack of skill, etc.
On a deer, it's hard to tell an ounce of difference between one shot with a .223 using good bullets, and one shot with a laundry list of bigger rounds. I've shot deer with my .338WM while elk hunting and seen no difference than if i'd have shot it with any of my smaller caliber rifles.
I'd much rather see a guy who know's his limitations using a .223 than the guy who show's up with an UltraMag that had a freind zero it in for him because he didn't have the time."
Previously thrashed

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Why don't grown men use grown cals? The .223 works in grown fashion and the question becomes why not? I certainly question a 9 year old using a .270 every bit as much as that person questions using a .223 on deer. The last thing I want to do is create a flinch in a youngster.

I think flinch is genetic. It runs in the family, just like gunshy dogs. It's not created by using an adequate deer cartridge to start with. Some kids are borne with it, hence the rationalizations to teach kids to use the 223, and some adults never give it up, but I'll bet they still have a flinch, no matter what cartridge they shoot. The 223 can't prevent or cure a flinch, just like a woman cant cure a queer.

KB

quote:

Fat Cat ! You spin a good yarn but your conclusion is a tad bit questionable to me. When dealing with small framed or sensitive people ( women and children )the .243,6mm with well designed bullets and the 250 -3000 makes far more sense than a fairly fast moving c&c 22 cal. varmint bullet. This even makes more sense if you hand load and taylor make the ammo to fit the individual.

Well, first of all, asshole, it isn't a yarn. You're calling me a liar, and, at least in Texas, those are fighting words. I don't lie and, if you think about it (which might be a difficult exercise for you), what have I got to gain by lying? I specifically stated that a .223 is not the best cartridge to use but it works if used correctly. If my "yarn" is so "questionable" to you, why don't we bet serious amounts of money as to my veracity, let's see if you are willing to back up your alligator mouth with real cash. I can produce at least 4 or 5 of the kids and their parents who were there for the kills. Otherwise we just know that you overloaded your hummingbird asshole.

Second of all, I had on hand a cut down .223 TC with very little recoil that I "made" for my son, that was light wt and sized for kids to handle AND had proven to be a good deer killer. It was good enough for my son to kill his first few deer with (he started when he was 7 IIRC), so I had friend's kids use it if they didn't have something of their own that fit. The same gun in .243 generated substantially more recoil, more than I think most new shooters should be exposed to. YMMV, which brings me to the third point....

Why don't you tell us how many YOUNG kids you've had kill their first big game animal with .243s or larger and the results with .243 or .257s loaded down. I eagerly await you reply.

Finally, if it is really so "questionable" to you, I'll bet you $10,000 that I can take the same gun, you can be in the stand, and I'll kill a deer with it and it won't run more than 50 yards. Come on down next fall, bring cash.

BTW, the same offer applies to anyone else who thinks .223s bounce off deer.

Gatogordo--Could maybe you quit holding back and tell us what you really think? BTW I agree with you.

Kabluewy--"A woman can't cure a queer". Sorry to hear your therapy didn't work.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
I had on hand a cut down .223 TC with very little recoil that I "made" for my son, that was light wt and sized for kids to handle AND had proven to be a good deer killer. It was good enough for my son to kill his first few deer with (he started when he was 7 IIRC), so I had friend's kids use it if they didn't have something of their own that fit. The same gun in .243 generated substantially more recoil, more than I think most new shooters should be exposed to.

Finally, if it is really so "questionable" to you, I'll bet you $10,000 that I can take the same gun, you can be in the stand, and I'll kill a deer with it and it won't run more than 50 yards. Come on down next fall, bring cash.

The cut down TC seems to me like the perfect kids deer or hog rifle. IMO, the perfect setup would be the 223 barrel for the range, to see if the kid is actually capable of shooting, and for him/her to get used to the rifle. Then, switch barrels to something like a 30-30 for the real hunt. I see no reason to take a kid out for something other than target practice with the 223.

It seems to me that many people start kids too young on actually deer hunting/shooting. IMO, seven is too young. That's still a baby. IMO, if a kid cant handle a 243 or a 30-30, then he/she isn't ready to hunt big game. Take them squirrel hunting instead, with a 22LR. I see no reason to rationalize ownership of a 223 for hunting. Use a 22LR for small game, and a real deer rifle for big game.

Your offer to show what you can do with a 223, and 64gr bullets only serves to show your ignorance, IMO. You think that somehow, with all your years of experience, that proving that you can cleanly take deer with a 223 means that it's also the right cartridge for kids, who obviously have practically no experience or skill. If the 223 is a deer cartridge, it's an experts cartridge. Advocating it for kids is backwards. It's something one graduates into, not start out with. Why handicap the kid? Are you trying to teach them that it's OK to wound deer?

KB

Excuse me, all of the personal attacks and threats, I think I've blundered over into fire.

quote:

Originally posted by carpetman1:
Kabluewy--"A woman can't cure a queer". Sorry to hear your therapy didn't work.

The analogy was for you and your genetic flinching problem, which obviously runs in your family.

Got any gunshy dogs? Cured any of them lately? Try a suppressor, although it wont work either, just like a 223 doesn't work on flinching.

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
All that is well and good, but there are problems: more than one...

To start with, a deer is not a deer... you can shoot all the 100# TX hill country deer you want to with a .223 and potentially never have a problem. But do that with a midwestern whitetail that may go 180 field dressed and see how you luck out. I suspect the results will differ considerably.

Secondly, predict for me how a shot whitetail is going to act, and do it reliably. Well, you can't, can you?

You guys make your blanket statements about the .233 being adequate for deer, and then point at a couple that dropped in their tracks as proof. How many have you shot that ran? And when they ran, how far did they go?

One more time: about ten years ago, I helped my buddy track the second TX hill country deer he shot with his lovable .223 and a 60-grain Nosler Partition. We spent four hours finding this doe; the post mortem showed she was "textbook" lung shot, and we tracked her over 600 yards before she fell. At times the blood drops were no bigger than the head of a pin, and as far as 15 to 20 feet apart.

We found her, but just like the doe a year earlier, she had gone way too far, with virtually no blood trail to follow. I told Bryan then that if he shot another one with that .223 I was going to bend the barrel into a hairpin around his neck.

I ask you these questions:

Why didn't she fall DRT like you guys talk about?

What is the justification for potentially losing an animal every time you pull the trigger because the exit hole doesn't give enough blood to adequately track?

What is your acceptable loss percentage for deer shot with calibers too small to leave a decent exit hole?

Why don't you grown up men shoot a grown up caliber? My now 28 year old son shot his first deer at age nine. He was sitting in my lap when he did it, and used my .270.

Flame away!

I think that the Nosler Partition 60g in the .223 is a penetrating son of a gun. In fact it penetrates so well that the times I have used in in .224 and .270 bullets that I found it ineffective in putting deer size critters down quickly.

I once shot a 4x4 Mule deer buck at about 175 yards three times with a 130g 270 Nosler Partition and watched the rocks and dust fly on the other side of the deer. He ran down into a draw about 25 yards ago and my buddy and I shot him again to finally stop him. All three of my shots with that partition were in front of the diaphragm and I was surprised by the results.

I switched over to the Nosler Ballistic Tips in .270, 300 Win Mag and .224 and have had great luck with elk with the .270 and .300WM and on deer with the .224 out of a 22-250 and more recently a .223 even out of an AR.

That NBT in .224 had a thick base on it and it penetrates like crazy when the velocities drop down to about 2400-2600 fps.

I've had very good luck using the 40g NBT on deer with no loss and most of them have gone less than 25-35 yards. I've shot probably more than 15-20 mule deer bucks that are smaller or medium size (150-180 pounds) pushing that bullet at super high velocity.

Have the lad switch to a NBT in that .223 and the results will improve dramatically.

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
I once shot a 4x4 Mule deer buck at about 175 yards three times with a 130g 270 Nosler Partition and watched the rocks and dust fly on the other side of the deer. He ran down into a draw about 25 yards ago and my buddy and I shot him again to finally stop him. All three of my shots with that partition were in front of the diaphragm and I was surprised by the results.

I too am surprised at the results described, just as I am re all your "results". It's amusing, actually.

KB

quote:

Have the lad switch to a NBT in that .223 and the results will improve dramatically

You are probably right, but I had a really bad experience with a NBT about 20 years ago. I have posted about in other threads, but suffice it to say a 150-grain NBT penciled through a head shot hog I shot in the TX hill country. I couldn't believe it. The next shot, a Hornady Interlock, flipped him fanny over tea kettle. The two shots were less than an inch apart.

I have no idea why the NBT penciled, but it did. And fwiw, the late Finn Aagaard said he didn't like the Ballistic Tips either; they opened too violently and messed up too much edible meat. I understand that bullet has been re-designed and might work much better, but here is my question:

If a partition is too hard for hunting whitetails with a .223 (which I will never do anyway...), what in the world is the application for that projectile? It will never expand to large enough to give a reliable blood trail on a hog. It doesn't do it on a whitetail (which by the way was a large part of my argument for not using the .223 anyway!).

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:

quote:

Have the lad switch to a NBT in that .223 and the results will improve dramatically

You are probably right,

No, he's not right. He's advocating a varmint bullet in the 223 as a deer cartridge. He and Carpetman both advocate varmint bullets for deer.

That's always been my basic argument. Too many advocates of the 223 for deer also use varmint bullets and somehow have it made up in their heads that those bullets work fine for such purpose.

To me, the acceptable bullets in the 223 for deer are not the explosive varmint type bullets.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

Fat Cat ! You spin a good yarn but your conclusion is a tad bit questionable to me. When dealing with small framed or sensitive people ( women and children )the .243,6mm with well designed bullets and the 250 -3000 makes far more sense than a fairly fast moving c&c 22 cal. varmint bullet. This even makes more sense if you hand load and taylor make the ammo to fit the individual.

Well, first of all, asshole, it isn't a yarn. You're calling me a liar, and, at least in Texas, those are fighting words. I don't lie and, if you think about it (which might be a difficult exercise for you), what have I got to gain by lying? I specifically stated that a .223 is not the best cartridge to use but it works if used correctly. If my "yarn" is so "questionable" to you, why don't we bet serious amounts of money as to my veracity, let's see if you are willing to back up your alligator mouth with real cash. I can produce at least 4 or 5 of the kids and their parents who were there for the kills. Otherwise we just know that you overloaded your hummingbird asshole.

Second of all, I had on hand a cut down .223 TC with very little recoil that I "made" for my son, that was light wt and sized for kids to handle AND had proven to be a good deer killer. It was good enough for my son to kill his first few deer with (he started when he was 7 IIRC), so I had friend's kids use it if they didn't have something of their own that fit. The same gun in .243 generated substantially more recoil, more than I think most new shooters should be exposed to. YMMV, which brings me to the third point....

Why don't you tell us how many YOUNG kids you've had kill their first big game animal with .243s or larger and the results with .243 or .257s loaded down. I eagerly await you reply.

Finally, if it is really so "questionable" to you, I'll bet you $10,000 that I can take the same gun, you can be in the stand, and I'll kill a deer with it and it won't run more than 50 yards. Come on down next fall, bring cash.

BTW, the same offer applies to anyone else who thinks .223s bounce off deer.

Besides being a Potty-Mouth you do a pretty good Texas twist and song and dance as well. As far as training youngsters and women and taking them on their first hunt there have been a few. roger

Kablowey--It's not called an analogy--it's called a testimony.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

Fat Cat ! You spin a good yarn but your conclusion is a tad bit questionable to me. When dealing with small framed or sensitive people ( women and children )the .243,6mm with well designed bullets and the 250 -3000 makes far more sense than a fairly fast moving c&c 22 cal. varmint bullet. This even makes more sense if you hand load and taylor make the ammo to fit the individual.

Well, first of all, asshole, it isn't a yarn. You're calling me a liar, and, at least in Texas, those are fighting words. I don't lie and, if you think about it (which might be a difficult exercise for you), what have I got to gain by lying? I specifically stated that a .223 is not the best cartridge to use but it works if used correctly. If my "yarn" is so "questionable" to you, why don't we bet serious amounts of money as to my veracity, let's see if you are willing to back up your alligator mouth with real cash. I can produce at least 4 or 5 of the kids and their parents who were there for the kills. Otherwise we just know that you overloaded your hummingbird asshole.

Second of all, I had on hand a cut down .223 TC with very little recoil that I "made" for my son, that was light wt and sized for kids to handle AND had proven to be a good deer killer. It was good enough for my son to kill his first few deer with (he started when he was 7 IIRC), so I had friend's kids use it if they didn't have something of their own that fit. The same gun in .243 generated substantially more recoil, more than I think most new shooters should be exposed to. YMMV, which brings me to the third point....

Why don't you tell us how many YOUNG kids you've had kill their first big game animal with .243s or larger and the results with .243 or .257s loaded down. I eagerly await you reply.

Finally, if it is really so "questionable" to you, I'll bet you $10,000 that I can take the same gun, you can be in the stand, and I'll kill a deer with it and it won't run more than 50 yards. Come on down next fall, bring cash.

BTW, the same offer applies to anyone else who thinks .223s bounce off deer.

Besides being a Potty-Mouth you do a pretty good Texas twist and song and dance as well. As far as training youngsters and women and taking them on their first hunt there have been a few. roger

Just what I figured, another chickenshit internet "expert" who doesn't have the balls to back up his pronouncements with hard cash.

quote:

I see no reason to take a kid out for something other than target practice with the 223.

It seems to me that many people start kids too young on actually deer hunting/shooting. IMO, seven is too young. That's still a baby. IMO, if a kid cant handle a 243 or a 30-30, then he/she isn't ready to hunt big game

Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but it was my child, not yours or someone else's, and he wanted to go deer hunting after "hunting" with me for a year or three. I sure as hell didn't push him to hunt a deer, he wanted to and before I gave him the OK, we had many discussions about the seriousness of killing something, how to make a clean kill (imagine a basketball between the deer's front legs, and don't shoot unless you can go through most of the basketball ), safety, don't take a shot unless you're certain it is a good one, etc, etc all prior to his getting in a stand with a rifle. Given his size, I adapted the TC so it would work for him. Could he have shot a .243, maybe? But unlike your amazingly ignorant opinion of flinching (talk to trap shooters sometime) I KNOW that starting someone hunting with a gun that kicks them more than necessary to get the job done MAY, but not necessarily will, lead to developing all kinds of bad shooting habits. He was ready, willing, and able to kill his first deer at 7 and waited for several months to kill a buck instead of a doe because he wanted to kill an 8 point or better for his first deer. Other kids might not be ready when they're 10 or older, that would be their and their parent's call. Your "opinion" of how poorly the .223 performs is self-generated despite the facts, since, as I said, he killed 5 or 6 deer, probably more, since I can't recall exactly how many more he shot with the .223 until I gave him a .243 when he was about 10 or 11 since we were killing mostly does and lots of them under MLD permits and it was mostly just the 2 of us shooting up to 40 doe permits per season, with that dreaded non-deer killing .223. Must be an amazing repetitive coincidence that he and the 5 or 6 other kids NEVER lost a deer and NEVER shot one twice with that .223, so take your "opinion" of how worthless it is, or what age to take MY KId hunting, and put it where the sun never shines.

My son is now an excellent shot, an A student at UT Austin, with dozens of one shot kills to his credit both here, in Africa, and Argentina so IF I "started" him too soon, he overcame the handicap. The only game I've ever seen him miss with a rifle is the second, third or fourth running pig and he dropped them regularly with his Tikka .308 when he was home full time.

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:

quote:

Have the lad switch to a NBT in that .223 and the results will improve dramatically

You are probably right, but I had a really bad experience with a NBT about 20 years ago. I have posted about in other threads, but suffice it to say a 150-grain NBT penciled through a head shot hog I shot in the TX hill country. I couldn't believe it. The next shot, a Hornady Interlock, flipped him fanny over tea kettle. The two shots were less than an inch apart.

I have no idea why the NBT penciled, but it did. And fwiw, the late Finn Aagaard said he didn't like the Ballistic Tips either; they opened too violently and messed up too much edible meat. I understand that bullet has been re-designed and might work much better, but here is my question:

If a partition is too hard for hunting whitetails with a .223 (which I will never do anyway...), what in the world is the application for that projectile? It will never expand to large enough to give a reliable blood trail on a hog. It doesn't do it on a whitetail (which by the way was a large part of my argument for not using the .223 anyway!).

I agree with you about the NBT being redesigned over the years from when you last used them. I've heard some comments that this has been done more than once in the last 15-20 years. To me the Partition allows a hunter to "upgrade" the performance of a caliber when taking larger game than is normally taken with that caliber due to it's characteristic of great penetration.

Our whole family has had great luck using the NBT in many different calibers on big game here in Idaho, Utah and Montana. Most of the game has been taken at longer distances when the velocity has dropped done a wee bit since the muzzle. As the velocity decreases, as you know, the penetration goes up. I don't think anyone in our family has taken a big game animal with the NBT at a range under 150 yards. That is too great a distance for the tree stand lads to comprehend when they can't see beyond 80-100 yards in their hunting situations.

Seafire2, before he basically left this forum, did a bunch of testing on the .224 NBT penetration at reduced velocities and basically discovered this feature of that NBT with it's thick base.

However, what good does testing do in the face of ego centered OPINIONS of some that haunt these forums?

We get one of these threads every 6 months. Carpetman is usually the instigator with the audacity to post his experience killing deer with a .223.

Scott--and every 6 months Kablowey comes along and fully agrees with me.

Just what I figured, another chickenshit internet "expert" who doesn't have the balls to back up his pronouncements with hard cash.[/QUOTE]
And the horse you rode in on. When they talk of tunnel vision they sure had you in mind. You certainly add a new dimension to internet, close minded "EXPERT". You're the winner. roger