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One of Us |
I think your "testing" is ego centered. What - you don't believe what the manufacturer says about the bullet, it's intended use, and its explosiveness? They don't mention "penetration" in a varmint bullet. Actually that would be contrary to their design intent, which is rapid expansion and fragmentation. What - you don't think they tell the truth or can actually make a bullet that will perform exactly as intended and advertised? So, you "test" the varmint bullets on deer to confirm that the manufacturer doens't know what they are talking about, and you do? Am I understanding what you are really saying? KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Yep, but one thing you can say about me is that I am always willing to back my words and expertise, if I claim any, with real CASH, not school yard prattle, how about you, chickenshit? xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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And I have the audacity to post my non-experience killing deer with a .223.  It's amazing isn't it - my experience at not killing deer with a .223 is 100%, and Carpetman's is 100% success, or so he says. Seems to me that my 100% is indeed success, and a sure thing, which is likely the only 100% real deal on this thread and perhaps the whole forum.KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Try to learn to shoot better. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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You know what I mean. Edited:
I don't own a 223 and never will. I see no reason for the cartridge to exist, as a hunting round. I've seen what it does to deer, and the disappointments. Most of my hunting buddies who tried the 223 AR, have come to their senses and quit using it on deer and hogs. It's a great coyote rifle, so they tell me. ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Maybe I missed it, have you ever shot a deer with a .223? xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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You and K.B. taught me the secret of always having the right bullet and ammo. Decide what I want to shoot, and buy a box of ammo with that animal on it. | |||
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That's why they put pictures of animals on the ammo boxes, for guys like you who actually pays attention. Carpetman doesn't care. He'll shoot deer with ammo that has a picture of a GOPHER on the box. He can't take a hint. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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So let me get this straight, you're doing all this pontificating about how worthless the .223 is on deer and you have ZERO experience using one? Damn........  xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Gato---Kablowey doesn't have zero experience he has vast experience. His buddy shot a doe, supposedly in the head at 200 yards. The deer was down and crying and bleating and flailing around and the two sat there in the stand for a couple more hours while all that continued. When they finally made their way over to the deer it was gone. They could hear it thrashing around but couldn't track it. (I'm sure that was because of the small wound a .223 makes). Even though you can hear it, you need blood to track it. This total failure of the .223 turned him against the .223. Now his flock shooting deer with an unsighted rifle was not a .223. He learned his rifle was not sighted in when his buddy told him. Yes, we have a real expert to draw from. | |||
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Scott --I really don't see reporting what happens as being an instigator. You own your on hunting spot, so you know who hunts there. My son in law owns the place where I hunt. I know most everybody that hunts there and what they use. I post what happens. Certainly if someone shoots one that gets away I'll report that too. It still amazes me the number that are one shot kills with .22 cal--certainly not what I would have thought. | |||
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I've learned two things from this thread. First, "optimal" and "acceptable" are English synonyms. Not sure why the word processor allows me to insert both in one sentence......probably have the autocorrect function disabled. Second, variables like distance to shot, shooter experience, recoil-tolerance, type and amount of cover, animal size, shot selection, and shot placement are irrelevant when considering cartridge/bullet selection for deer. Sam | |||
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That was tongue and cheek. | |||
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My "experience" consists of first hand observation as to the results of deer shot with the 223 by hunting buddies and others. It's valid experience. And my opinions steming from that are valid. Not only valid field experience, but all one has to do is look at the ballistic charts and do the math and read what the manufacturers say about their own creations, and draw conclusions from that. One doesn't need to stick his finger in a cocked mouse trap to know what will happen. Same with a 223. One other thing, I believe that some 223 users are liars. For example, there is no way to achieve the success rate (100%) as one guy (or more) herein claims. Another talks about the long shots with 40gr NBTs, and emphases the muzzel velocity at over 4000fps. What he doesn't even bother to figure, much less state, is what the tiny little low SD bullet is doing ballistically way out there where he claims the magic kills. What good would it do for me to own a 223, and shoot one at deer? Just to prove some of these guys herein are liars? I already know that, and don't need a 223 to prove it. There is a vast resource of knowledge out there, and readily accessable. I don't need to listen to some ego yahoo spout how he knows something about a particular bullet that the mfg doesn't know or intended. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Scott -- You are making a big assumption. Reporting what happens is far more subjective than reason would suggest - Carpetman is a good example. His embellisment switch is always on. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Show us a quote of one of your posts where you have reported one that got away. Surely, out of 1467 posts there is one such post. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Nothing wrong with a 22 cal. Checkout Gerard's website www.gscustom.co.za and see what he does with a wildcat he developed for his bullets. | |||
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Surely you are joking. The variables you mentioned are always relevant. The thing is that they are indeed variables, and controllable only with the use of significant restraint and skill. Passing on a shot due to one (or more) of the variables being outside some subjective threshold is something every real hunter deals with in his own way. The degree of judgment and self restraint are indeed variables, also. Cartridge selection is also a variable, but the ballistics of a specific combo are among the least variable of all the factors in deer hunting. It's a matter of physics, and can be accurately computed and predicted. So, why would a real hunter, with ethics, and a handle on self restraint and judgment, intentionally choose a cartridge which performs ballistically at the ragged edge of marginal? There are several potential answers to that question. Ego perhaps. Probably such a "hunter" really doesn't have the mental capacity to factor in all the variables, including cartridge selection - and what the heck. The selection of cartridge and bullet for deer hunting is one of the easiest variables to work with. It doesn't happen in the stress of the moment when deciding to take a shot or not. It's an intention choice made long before, and a clear indicator to me of whether a "hunter" really gives a shit about managing variables in the field, self restraint, judgment, and ethics. Cartridge choice is as basic as sighting in a rifle before taking it hunting, and managing variables. To me, choosing to shoot at deer with a marginal cartridge, when there are obvious better choices, is a clear indicator that the shooter has forfeited ethics for ego. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Being able to report you killed a Buffalo with a BB gun is more about looking for applause....or maybe just low self esteem. This topic is getting tiresome....we all admit a 223 can be used on deer...and we all admit it is a poor choice for all conditions. Let it go...or go find a therapist | |||
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If you are tired of the topic, don't participate. Not "all" "admit", as you say. Some still advocate it as the ideal starter deer cartridge for kids. Some claim 100% success rates. Some say they gratuated to the cartridge, yet the same guy(s) use varmint bullets. Most "admit" that the cartridge isn't a good choice for deer, but they are still rather tolerant of those still claiming its perfection. BS needs to be called what it is, especially re hunting ethics. These guys looking for "applause" are really looking for affirmation of their egos, and find it in those willing to overlook their BS. IMO, the use of the 223 for deer hunting is a bad thing from several perspectives. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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How dead is dead? If someone kills a deer with a claymore under a feeder is he more ethical than someone who uses a .30-06 because obviously his weapon is a better choice? Is a wounded deer with a .30-06 somehow less wounded than one with a .223? In short, you can choose your ethical boundaries but if others have other ethics that are legal, why don't you just shut the fuck up about it because no one made you the ethical dictator the last time I checked. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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Choosing to use a 223 on deer, especially "teaching" kids that it's ok, IMO is unethical. I can't tell you what to do, but I can tell you that I think that you are unethical. It ain't just about dead deer, as you suggest, but more about how one goes about it, and attitude. Choosing a ragged edge marginal cartridge, especially for kids, suggests to me that the heratige and ethics of the sport matter less to you than your ego. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Probably one third of your 6891 posts speak directly to your opinion of the 223 on deer. We get it. Let it rest. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Or are you a trout that just can't resist a well tied fly? "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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Any of you guys wonder why I have both KB and the Fat Cat on ignore? | |||
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Actually, I was being sarcastic. You acknowledge the existence of variables. But it is you who are making an argument against their relevance to the question. If the variables are not relevant to anyone's decision to use/not use a .223, ergo, one cannot sanely use a .223 for deer. I disagree. This brings us to my first observation: perhaps you make no distinction between "acceptable" and "optimal". If those terms are equivalent for you so be it. They do not have the same meaning for me. Nor, apparently, do they have the same meaning for everyone who has posted. My son and I use the .300 WBY for deer. But I could ethically use a Hornet to put venison in my freezer for the rest of my days. Purpose, yeah, that's another variable. Sam | |||
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A man is known both by his friends and the quality of his enemies. I am flattered that such as you have me on ignore. Keep it up. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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My opinions of the 223 on deer are partially based on those deer that became buzzard feed having been wounded and got away from friends who use the cartridge, or used to use it. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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I don't doubt the sincerity of your opininating, just regret the needless quantity. But it's Saeed'd bandwidth, not mine so plug away! (Pardon the pun) "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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First, whether a round is marginal depends on many variables, about which you and I agree. I could neatly and ethically take 100 deer with a .223 if shots under 100 yds on undisturbed smallish animals are specified. So could you. Change the specs....the .223 could very easily become a marginal round. Depending on the specs, a .270 is a marginal deer round. No? Ok, place a 5# UL in the hands of a recoil-sensitive newbie and have him poke at running animals 500 yds out. Second, if a sub-optimal round can be used "within it's limitations" it is therefore, logically, "acceptable" under those conditions. Thus, you agree with me. BTW, I'm not finding any blanket affirmation of the .223 as a general purpose deer cartridge from the others posting on this thread. Frankly, I don't disagree with your ideas about what might constitute an "optimal" round. I've told you about mine. But I think you have constructed and attacked your own "straw man". Sam | |||
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Ol queerblowey is still at his lying. He went from seeing the one head shot doe by his buddy that I described to much experience now. What a liar. He did tell one truth--his testimony that a woman can't cure a queer. | |||
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OKAY KB you are so full of  that you cannot stand down wind of yourself without gagging! ETHICS, are INDIVIDUAL.The only "Blanket" ethics, as far as hunting is concerned, are the written and legislated game laws of the various states/provinces. Some states have outlawed the .223's/.224's for hunting deer and larger game. Until/Unless ALL states are willing to take such action, this whole issue is so  , that the maggots are no longer feeding on the corpse.The.223/.224 are too small, what is too large? In the wrong hands, it does not matter the size of the cartridge. A gut shot deer with a .223 is just as gut shot if hit with a 500 grain bullet from a .458. KB, I actually agree with you that the .223/.224 chamberings are not "deer calibers". Point of fact however is that thousands of deer are killed and recovered annually, by people using such chamberings Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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Our institutions are crowded with people who keep rattling on about the same topic. Get yourself check in someplace.... | |||
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I've brought this up before and will again I'm sure. If something works for someone why are there others who insist it can't be done? Or shouldn't? I know of a guy who uses a TAC20 on big game. With success. Enough that he has documented several kills of both deer and elk. He films hunts and sells videos. His tool of choice has bcome a single shot TAC20 for everything. Would I recommend it to others? Probably not for elk but then I've never seen what the insides looked like. Bottom line though, damaged to the vitals kills. If you can't track an animal that's been hit well far enough to let it bleed out, or stay on tracks without a big blood trail then those things need to be considered. You guys that like to tell others how to hunt are the ones with a screw loose. Hunting is individual on every level. There is a time and plce for nearly everything. One more bit to chew on,.. my friend is a game warden and in his area the most common deer poaching gun is a .22lr followed closely bu the .22 WMR and .223. | |||
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I'm here to argue. Why do you keep making posts that are agreeable? Obviously the scope of the word "adequate" is narrower for the 223 compared to the 270, when considering variables. The problem with the 223 is that some (herein) don't seem to recognize the inherent limitations of the 223 cartridge itself. If they did, they wouldn't use varmint bullets on deer. There are .223 bullets not classified as fragmenting explosive varmint type bullets, and many use them with success, yet there are those reporting experience with little or no blood trails, etc. If there is one thing out of this conversation achieved, then IMO it's the distinctions of using 223 varmint bullets vs bullets supposedly designed for deer in 223. I would like to see some discussion on that. KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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I agree with using non varmint bullets in the 22's for deer. GS CUSTOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | |||
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One of Us |
Kabluewy: If you want a discussion on adequate bullets for the 223 for deer. Then here is what I have found, from experience. 50gr TSX- Dead Deer(s), dressed out at 142, 163, 188 60gr Nos Part- Dead Deer, dressed out at 154 55gr Soft point- Dead Deer, dressed out at 147 50gr ESP Raptor- TBD but I am betting on dead deer .223 and deer 100% success rate for my wife. But then again, she knows the limitations of the cartridge and takes shots accordingly. The great thing about the caliber is that she is able to afford to shoot it! I dont care about caliber, hunting is about shot placement. If you cant place the bullet where it needs to go.... dont take the shot! "though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression." ---Thomas Jefferson | |||
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Thanks for the report. If I used the 223 for deer, the bullets you mentioned would be acceptable, with the possible exception of the 55gr soft point, but obviously it worked. If I used a 223 for deer, I would be very tempted to use TSX bullets. I like an exit. But again, it would be tough for me to pick up a 223 to take deer or hog hunting when I have several 6.5 Grendels to choose from and several overkill 308s too. If I want a bolt action or AR15, I have a Grendel in each. I have 308s in bolt actions, and one AR10 as well. Since using the Grendel, I find the 308 to be a cannon, heavy artilary, overkill, etc. Talking about shot placment - I don't like tracking or following blood trails, (especially hogs) so for a long time now I've been real picky about shot placment. (a quarter size spot right behind the ear is perfect) I remember the last long shot I made very well, and it turned out ok, but a bit messy. Anyway, head or neck shots are what I go for now, and if not presented well, 125 yds or less, I'll pass on the shot. Whacking the game isn't as important to me anymore as much as a clean shot, minimal meat damage, less mess, no tracking, etc. For this purpose, and specialty, I suspect the 223 and TSX bullets would work very well. But I have a Grendel, a very satisfying (deer/hog hunting) cartridge indeed.  BTW, my favorite bullets so far in the Grendel is the 100gr TTSX. I need to "experiment" more with it to say for sure. It's tough with so many excellent bullet choices in 6.5mm. I really feel for the 223 user, whose choices are so limited, and those you have are so marginal at best.  KB ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ | |||
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Or replace the above with "Margin Of Error"! Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Small Calibers Two More Deer with .223
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And the horse you rode in on. When they talk of tunnel vision they sure had you in mind. You certainly add a new dimension to internet, close minded "EXPERT". You're the winner. 
roger