Bruce,

I still think you were starting crap. But… Oh Well! You’re not the first.

MickinColo,,,,I belive this form is called (Accuratereloading),, were people ask and receive various loads recomendations and info.??? I have only reloaded for 4-5 years, and i dont know everything there is about reloading,,,SO,,if YOU dont need to ask anyone on this form for reloading issues or bullet selection,,,Maybe you should visit a different form.. You can do most of us a favor here by placeing your head were the sun doesnt shine

I deleted my last post, it was uncalled for.

I want to thank everyone who suggested the Seirra 63 gr. and the 60gr Partitions.. I loaded them both with IMR 4350, 41grs, and they shot very good..The first two shots of each type bullets allmost the same hole or over lapping,,the third shot of each, i had a flyer, and have had this problem for a while.. I will address this problem, but at least i know they both will stablize in the 1-14 twist.. Thanks again, Bruce..

quote:

.224 deer bullet

Unless you intend to hunt deer like this,







...fine.



If you intend to hunt deer like this...







Then the term, ".224 deer bullet" is an oxymoron like "jumbo shrimp",

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

.224 deer bullet

Unless you intend to hunt deer like this,







...fine.



If you intend to hunt deer like this...







Then the term, ".224 deer bullet" is an oxymoron like "jumbo shrimp",

Inside 200 yards he is dead 10/10 times, with in 50 yards of where he was shot. 70gr TSX to the boiler room or neck.

Perry

quote:

Inside 200 yards he is dead 10/10 times, with in 50 yards of where he was shot. 70gr TSX to the boiler room or neck.

Perry

For Texas deer, you're probably right

Maybe I need this .

Perry

Naw....






With .22 Caliber ammo of course!

quote:

Originally posted by bluedot:
bruce as usual hot**** knows not of which he speaks. I have found that those that have never tried a 22 centerfire on deer are those that scream the loudest about it. I have personally been in on well over 100 deer kills with a 22-250, most were shot with 63 gr sierrra smp, some with 55 btsp sierra and some with the 64 gr win pp. All but one were one shot kills, slip a bullet into their lungs on a broadside shot and they will die and seldom will they take more than a step or two.

You do realize you are arguing with a man who has literally killed THOUSANDS of deer...mathematically that is several hundred a year! ...

No one on this forum has a fraction of the experience HOT Core does... if you don't believe me, just ask him!

quote:

If you intend to hunt deer like this...

yeah for one of those, you need a 400 Winchester magnum, to replace the 300 Winchester Magnum you got your wife, for her last birthday...and next year you will need a 500 Winchester magnum, because the same type of deer will be more bullet proof come next season...

Funny stuff....BUT

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:

quote:

Originally posted by bluedot:
bruce as usual hot**** knows not of which he speaks. I have found that those that have never tried a 22 centerfire on deer are those that scream the loudest about it. I have personally been in on well over 100 deer kills with a 22-250, most were shot with 63 gr sierrra smp, some with 55 btsp sierra and some with the 64 gr win pp. All but one were one shot kills, slip a bullet into their lungs on a broadside shot and they will die and seldom will they take more than a step or two.

You do realize you are arguing with a man who has literally killed THOUSANDS of deer...mathematically that is several hundred a year! ...

No one on this forum has a fraction of the experience HOT Core does... if you don't believe me, just ask him!

Gidday Seafire,

Doesn't everyone shoot hundreds every year. I know most hunters here do. Then they wake up. Though quite a few do ion actuallity. In the bad old days (50s,60s & 70s) annual tallies over 1000 were quite common.

Most started with a 303 SMLE but quickly changed to 222 Sako because they could carry more ammo, disturb game less and didn't get the crap kicked out of them.

There are many who have done this but it backs up our position that with experience 22 centrefires are more than adequate and no amount of ranting and hyperbole is going to change what has already been well proven.

How does someone have time to post that many posts and still have time left to shoot hundreds of deer.

Happy Hunting

Hamish

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:

quote:

If you intend to hunt deer like this...

yeah for one of those, you need a 400 Winchester magnum, to replace the 300 Winchester Magnum you got your wife, for her last birthday...and next year you will need a 500 Winchester magnum, because the same type of deer will be more bullet proof come next season...

Givin that shot I would not want my .223.

I’ve read that the “Down Under” boys love the 22s and smaller calibers to cull deer sized game and kill thousands.

Is your choice of the 22 caliber because it works every time to make one shot kills? Or is it just cheap enough to get the animal down? I understand the recoil and cost factors. Sometimes the humane factor has nothing to do with the over all number of kills.

Don’t get me wrong, a person who shoots at a deer with a 300 magnum that he/she can’t handle is equal to the guy with a 22 the says “Let’s see if I can make this shot”.

Mick, the important thing to realize is they guy just had shoulder surgery, AND his hunting in PA. A well placed 60 partition will kill a little eastern whitetail just fine, but don't expect to see me using one on a big western mulie or an elk anytime soon.

Since they guy in only looking for something smaller due to his shoulder surgery, that tell me the rest of he deer rifles are more in line with something you and I would use.

So the best thing we can do is give him the best advice we can, so he can have a decent hunt this year while he heals up, and hopefully next year he will be up to taking his old workhorse back to the field.

Gidday Mick,

You are dead right about a bad shot with a 300 winmag and a 22. A bad shot is a bad shot and both are inhumane.

The guys who were using the 222 to such good effect were skilled marksmen and only took shots that would be killing shots. They were paid by the pound for the venison and any blood shot meat was taken from the total when the cheque was written out. In the main head and neck shots were taken with the occasional high lung shot though these were frowned upon as being lazy and destroying meat unnecesarily.

Personally I started with a 308 as I was in the Army at the time and had a good supply of cheap ammo. After getting a ribbing for dropping off meat that was "too red" I determined to start taking less destructive shots and got a 243 Sako to make the head and neck shot easier.

The 243 made taking these shots more manageable but with chest shots the bruising was just as bad as the 308. You soon learned to make good shots or the value of the deer dropped dramaticaly.

You learned patience to wait for the shot as you didn't want to ruin the meat and not to take the hasty shot.

It is much like a surgeon working with a scalpel on a patient and a butcher carving a carcass up. Both require totally different skill sets and rules to achieve the desired objective.

As our experiences are different our expectations and perspective is also different.

While I will still take a shot with the 222 if a suitable shot is presented while hunting small game I will take a 260 or 30-06 if targeting deer or bigger game as I am no longer hunting for the cheque.

Different folks, different strokes

Happy Hunting

Hamish

Antelope and Hamish,

It’s all just questions and wonderment to me any more. Thanks for the input.

Gidday Mick,

Yep the more I get to know the more I realise I don't know.

Happy Hunting

Hamish

MIck Let me know when and where on that beer.

quote:

Originally posted by Donald Nelson:

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:

quote:

If you intend to hunt deer like this...

yeah for one of those, you need a 400 Winchester magnum, to replace the 300 Winchester Magnum you got your wife, for her last birthday...and next year you will need a 500 Winchester magnum, because the same type of deer will be more bullet proof come next season...

Givin that shot I would not want my .223.

You know Don..

if you were presented with a target like that and you had a 223 with you, with say a 63 grains Sierra SMP, Would you pass on the shot?

If presented with a shot, exactly like shown in the picture, say I was looking at that thru my scope just as we see it...I automatically know where I would put my crosshairs at...

I know shooting these little fast running sage rats during the summer, does tighten up your ability to size up your target and distance quickly, pick your target spot and pull the trigger quickly...

many good varmint shooters, who shoot colony varmints ( as some call them), usually get a hit to miss ratio of 80 to 85% hits.. at distances from 100 to 250 yards on fast moving targets the size of a pop can.

I know on the above picture, if that was in my scope, just as is.. my point of aim would be just below where his right jaw is presenting itself... right where the mass of his neck is presenting itself...

Something that has not been mentioned on this discussion and many other discussions on this topic on ANY web site... is how much time a shooter spends with a 223 each season..

I can only speak for myself... but I put 3,000 to 5,000 rounds down range out of bolt action 223s and 22.250s a year... all handloaded by me..

I doubt if I could ever win any benchrest shooting matches, or even be a serious contender in one.. however with that many shots a year down range, at small targets both near and far...you somehow get to know your equipment and your own personal abilities quite well.

compare how much trigger time with their 22 caliber centerfire, that group can have annually and then compare that to how much time with their bigger calibers, many naythesayers probably have.

I doubt many people have half the trigger time with their equipment, who are shooting say a 300 Win Mag, vs the amount of trigger time that a varmint shooter has behind a 223 or 22.250.

and I am also willing to wager that most 223 and 22.250 shooters can place their shots more precisely ( at a wide range of distances) than MOST larger caliber bore shooters could.

and sure, there can be a few exceptions to that..but they would be darn few...

I can tell you from personal experience... when you are use to shooting at popcan sized targets at 200 and 250 yds for 3,000 round plus each summer... a deer at 300 yards, even when the scope is on 4 power... looks like a Dump truck in comparison....

and a 22 bullet in the right spot within 300 yds, can cause a boat load of damage..

would a 22 caliber be my first choice? NO a 260 would be...

however if I was there with a 223, and the opportunity presented itself.. I wouldn't feel handicapped.. I'd be quite aware of where I need to put the bullet is all...

maybe like any round.. it boils down to how much time we spend shooting it and at what distances... and how good we become with it, and how well we learn our abilities and abilities of the rifle and the round...

quote:

I know on the above picture, if that was in my scope, just as is.. my point of aim would be just below where his right jaw is presenting itself... right where the mass of his neck is presenting itself...

This thought process is the center of the problem.


The place to shoot that deer is a little below and in front of the little crease on the right side of his rib cage....of course with a rifle of sufficient caliber.


The shot you speak of Seafire is do-able 100% of the time if you are at the 100 yard range on a cement bench with a perfect rest. That's why we can shoot .5MOA groups in those conditions.

Taking that shot in a hunting situation when you are excited, don't have a stable rest, don't have an adequate caliber is the definition of "unethical".

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

I know on the above picture, if that was in my scope, just as is.. my point of aim would be just below where his right jaw is presenting itself... right where the mass of his neck is presenting itself...

This thought process is the center of the problem.


The place to shoot that deer is a little below and in front of the little crease on the right side of his rib cage....of course with a rifle of sufficient caliber.


The shot you speak of Seafire is do-able 100% of the time if you are at the 100 yard range on a cement bench with a perfect rest. That's why we can shoot .5MOA groups in those conditions.

Taking that shot in a hunting situation when you are excited, don't have a stable rest, don't have an adequate caliber is the definition of "unethical".

Sounds to me like someone needs to practice, not bring a bigger caliber. A larger caliber does not make up for poor placement.
The shot you are describing, a little off left or right and you hit a ham or a shoulder.
A 70gr TSX in the crease you describe will get to its heart 100% of time soooo...I guess you have to come up with a new picture and scenario to trump us "varminters" .

Perry

I'm a "varminter" too. I just happen to only shoot varmints with my varmint rifle, not big game.

If you're shot is off slightly with the adequate rifle and it hits where you describe, the buck goes down anyway.

If you're off the mark with the varmint gun, the buck runs off, probably never to be found, suffers and is eaten by crows.

If you're off the mark with the "varmint gun neck shot", the buck is wounded or has his jaw blown to hell and the predators eat again.

pitiful.

I don't know about that, could go either way. A 70gr TSX will penetrate to and through bone in this scenario (femur or shoulder) so the only difference would be meat damage. I have seen deer run with .308's to the shoulder, never to be found. Same with jaw bones. I have killed lots of mature bucks, hogs and one nilgai cow with a 70gr TSX on quartering shots. Every time penetration was 18-24+ inches and expansion was .51 caliber. To me that is more than adequate for medium size game.

But bear in mind I am a superior shot...probably the best ever.

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by rcamuglia:

quote:

I know on the above picture, if that was in my scope, just as is.. my point of aim would be just below where his right jaw is presenting itself... right where the mass of his neck is presenting itself...

This thought process is the center of the problem.


The place to shoot that deer is a little below and in front of the little crease on the right side of his rib cage....of course with a rifle of sufficient caliber.


The shot you speak of Seafire is do-able 100% of the time if you are at the 100 yard range on a cement bench with a perfect rest. That's why we can shoot .5MOA groups in those conditions.

Taking that shot in a hunting situation when you are excited, don't have a stable rest, don't have an adequate caliber is the definition of "unethical".

Well RC,

I have managed to be presented with "unethical" shots several times in the last 12 years or so..

and dropped the deer at distances of 300 yds.. so I guess varmint shooting has taught me to be a pretty fair shot...

but as I speak also above, I point out the concept of knowing your equipment...

would I take a shot at that animal at 30 yds with a 223? probably not...

would I take a shot at one like that at 200 yds, with a 22 centerfire.... you bet your bippie...

ya know, not all 3000 to 500 shots I speak of are off a bench, down at the rifle range..

even a guy who spends a lot of trigger time with a 22 LR each year, it becomes amazing how much more they can do with a rifle in their hands..

before the start of each deer season, I spend time shooting 1200 to 1500 rounds off hand with a 22 LR ( CZ 452) at an 8 x 11 target on a piece of paper... at 100 rounds per session, you can be surprised at how fast and good your aim, and your timing with a moving rifle can get...

what is "unethical" for some of you guys, is pretty darn ethical for others of us...

just the same as my son trains daily for school sports during that season, training frequently with a varmint rifle, shooting varmints with one.. practice shooting off hand with a 22 LR at 100 yds to tighten up your groups..

those of us who 'practice' a lot get pretty darn good.. in fact a lot better than most armchair ballistic experts get...

could be the difference is still boiling down, who knows their equipment and both its and their abilities the best...

why is it also, that the majority of folks who think one needs a much bigger caliber always seem to be US residents? not many arguments like this happen with guys from other countries who seem to kill bigger stuff with smaller calibers, because of economics or because of a lot of practice..just a thought.

FYI, and IMO, there are several factors involved in the ethics thing. You mentioned some, such as pretty darn good shot, good equipment, knowing your equipment, shot placment, knowing when to shoot, timing, knowing limitations, ego, etc., etc. Some may argue that the shot shouldn't be ethically taken at all with a varmint rifle. There's a reason they are called varmint rifles, and yourselves varminters.

You've gone all around the issue, rationalizing, and bypassed the first and basic question - is shooting deer size game ethical with a varmint cartridge, aside from whether you are a good shot or not, or how big your ego is?

And, I'm not going to get into an argument with any of you about the use of the 70 gr TSX, because you already know darn well that the use of that bullet is not universal, because it takes a very fast twist, and the average yahoo who shoots a 223, doens't really care about the bullet anyway, and just shoots what he's got and what the rifle is already sighted in for. Most of the types who would even consider a 223 for game aren't really particular enough to consider using 70 gr TSX. If they were particular, they wouldn't use the 223 at all.

Granted, most of you guys here on AR who use the 223, arent the average goober, but IMO, you are setting a bad example. Then again, perhaps the only real difference in the average 223 goober, and some you advocates here is the number of years rationalizing practice you've had.

KB

So out of curiosity, how does anyone that hunts Colorado know anything about Eastern whitetail. Most of the big boys here in NH, and Pa are tough animals. I've hunted Elk and Muleys in Colorado, I lived there. Have you ever hunted big eastern whitetail?
This entire thread is bases upon conjecture in my humble opinion. I hunt Whitetail here in NH. I don't however look for a trophy buck, but if one wanders by, well his bad day. As the OP stated he has a shoulder issue. I had neck surgery. I opted for a more effective and more forgiving caliber. My 6.5x55 has a 4x32mm scope w/ a ballistic plex that takes me to 300 yards. I never shot past 120 yards at game, don't have to. My 9.3x57 has 150 yard express sights. That 286gr bullet does a VG job of dropping them where they stand. Again, no recoil to speak of. I agree that is not alway necessary to use a bigger caliber. Moose here in the East are a great example. The 6.5x55 has been taking them for 100 years in Europe. Most Moose hunters around here use 30.06 or larger.
I just don't think that unless you've done it for the game in question, Conjecture does not help. Hey, but what do I know. I just live here and hunt the game in question every year. BTW, I also use a .44-40 with a 24" tube and iron sights for Deer in some area's. 205gr at just under 1300fps MV. I'd feel better about using a .44-40 or .45LC over a .223. But, that is me.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy
And, I'm not going to get into an argument with any of you about the use of the 70 gr TSX, because you already know darn well that the use of that bullet is not universal, because it takes a very fast twist, and the average yahoo who shoots a 223, doens't really care about the bullet anyway, and just shoots what he's got and what the rifle is already sighted in for. Most of the types who would even consider a 223 for game aren't really particular enough to consider using 70 gr TSX. If they were particular, they wouldn't use the 223 at all.

KB

The exact opposite is actually true. All the guys I hunt around, especially those who use 223/5.56, respect their quarry enough to make ethical decisions about their equipment before they go afield. None of us use slow twist guns. I should have qualified my argument with bullet selection BUT the original op asked a question as a broad stroke. You appear to be making my point. With the right bullet the 223/5.56 platform is a good one for medium game.
I would say that most guys who hunt with a 223/5.56 do care more because they know it makes a huge difference. On the AR15 sites guys are constantly talking bullet lethality and the general consensus is that heavy TSX's and Scirrocco's are the way to go.

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by perry:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy
And, I'm not going to get into an argument with any of you about the use of the 70 gr TSX, because you already know darn well that the use of that bullet is not universal, because it takes a very fast twist, and the average yahoo who shoots a 223, doens't really care about the bullet anyway, and just shoots what he's got and what the rifle is already sighted in for. Most of the types who would even consider a 223 for game aren't really particular enough to consider using 70 gr TSX. If they were particular, they wouldn't use the 223 at all.

KB

The exact opposite is actually true. All the guys I hunt around, especially those who use 223/5.56, respect their quarry enough to make ethical decisions about their equipment before they go afield. None of us use slow twist guns. I should have qualified my argument with bullet selection BUT the original op asked a question as a broad stroke. You appear to be making my point. With the right bullet the 223/5.56 platform is a good one for medium game.
I would say that most guys who hunt with a 223/5.56 do care more because they know it makes a huge difference. On the AR15 sites guys are constantly talking bullet lethality and the general consensus is that heavy TSX's and Scirrocco's are the way to go.

Perry

Another Perry quote! I don't know about that, could go either way. A 70gr TSX will penetrate to and through bone in this scenario (femur or shoulder) so the only difference would be meat damage. I have seen deer run with .308's to the shoulder, never to be found. Same with jaw bones. I have killed lots of mature bucks, hogs and one nilgai cow with a 70gr TSX on quartering shots. Every time penetration was 18-24+ inches and expansion was .51 caliber. To me that is more than adequate for medium size game.

But bear in mind I am a superior shot...probably the best ever.

Perry

So what does deer hunting in Tx have to do with the terrain and size of North eastern Whitetail? This is conjecture. You have never been here and are clueless as to what it takes. Sometimes a second is all the time the game is visible for a shot. Quartering to or away is the norm. Think about woods so thick you may have a 35 yard lane x 2 feet. That 20x scope is usless, so is a 4x. Perry, guys you hunt around are use to open spaces. A 200 yard field here is wide open. If you believe 1/2 of what you read on Arf.com, I am sorry. They believe the 5.56/.223 are the only round.

Jpat
Settle down! Who made you mad???

20x scope..who hunts with that???
Wide open spaces in S.Tx.??? You can't ride a horse through most of our brush and the only openings are ones man made.
Huge difference between a 250# and 180# whitetail...not that big of a difference AND I have used the 70gr TSX on a 300# nilgai antelope WHICH is a much tougher animal than ANY whitetail.
I did not say I believed anything on AR.com simply that guys do think about the bullets they use, all in response to Kab. saying 223/5.56 shooters don't think about bullet selection.

I stand by everything I have said!

Perry

I like the 40g and 50g Nosler BT's in the .224 for deer and also 55g in the .243. DRT

Accuracy has been outstanding and after shooting around 400-700 rounds per year with these loads they are very familiar and accurate.

Well there are some of us that know WE CAN...

and others that KNOW they CAN"T...

What gets me is why do those that CAN'T always have to flame and criticize those WHO CAN????

and it usually doesn't matter what the subject is..especially on line..

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
Well there are some of us that know WE CAN...

and others that KNOW they CAN"T...

What gets me is why do those that CAN'T always have to flame and criticize those WHO CAN????

and it usually doesn't matter what the subject is..especially on line..

I'll take it a step further and say;
It is those that HAVE, OFTEN and SUCCESSFULLY

Then there are those that have not but tell the have's they can not.

It is hysterical now to see they are throwing in habitat, region, how long the animal is standing there, etc, etc.
Bullet selection and shot placement, PERIOD.

Perry

Hey R, Yes indeed, it is all about them being able to shoot accurately - and no one else has that ability at all.

Has nothing at all to do with using an Adequate Cartridge for the Game. Nothing ever goes the least bit errant for "those that can".

Even the Super-Duper, Ultra Premium, never-fail, always-perfect 70gr Barnes Bullet takes care of everything! Welllllll...., unless you need a Blood Trail to follow in the sand and land so dense that "You can't ride a horse through most of our brush and the only openings are ones man made."

Since it is all about "Shot Placement", some of us with extremely poor shooting ability will just never understand. They ALWAYS hit the exact Hair Folicle they are aiming at from any distance and from ANY Field Position, because they have "shot at" a bunch of P-Dogs.

What do you suppose the Kill % on those P-Dogs at varying distances happens to be? 100% And how many were actually thrown into the air by "Low - in the dirt" shots? Of course that would mean the potential for a shot waaaaaay tooooo low on the Neck, through the Wind Pipe and a slow lingering death. But, they are such GREAT Shootists, that would NEVER happen - everything always goes perfectly.

Yes, it is easy to tell who has actual Hunting experience and who are the Keyboard Commandos = Pitiful and Pathetic!

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey R, Yes indeed, it is all about them being able to shoot accurately - and no one else has that ability at all.

Has nothing at all to do with using an Adequate Cartridge for the Game. Nothing ever goes the least bit errant for "those that can".

Even the Super-Duper, Ultra Premium, never-fail, always-perfect 70gr Barnes Bullet takes care of everything! Welllllll...., unless you need a Blood Trail to follow in the sand and land so dense that "You can't ride a horse through most of our brush and the only openings are ones man made."

Since it is all about "Shot Placement", some of us with extremely poor shooting ability will just never understand. They ALWAYS hit the exact Hair Folicle they are aiming at from any distance and from ANY Field Position, because they have "shot at" a bunch of P-Dogs.

What do you suppose the Kill % on those P-Dogs at varying distances happens to be? 100% And how many were actually thrown into the air by "Low - in the dirt" shots? Of course that would mean the potential for a shot waaaaaay tooooo low on the Neck, through the Wind Pipe and a slow lingering death. But, they are such GREAT Shootists, that would NEVER happen - everything always goes perfectly.

Yes, it is easy to tell who has actual Hunting experience and who are the Keyboard Commandos = Pitiful and Pathetic!

Great Post Hot Core...

you forgot to add that loaded with Blue Dot helps best!

and we have to concede...only a few members stateside have killed 'thousands' of deer, which evidently makes us "pitiful and pathetic keyboard commandos" ..

by the way, what is your annual venison count up to for the year? triple digits yet?

Yeah,? that Many HUH??? Great Job!

We are all humbled you have time to share your vast wealth of knowledge and experience with us... I can imagine how much time afield it must take to achieve all of that each year...

I am sure I speak for all of us when I say, each one of us wishes we could just see your expertise in action... it would be humbling just to follow your shadow thru the game fields...

Hot Core,
Sentence 5 in your previous post pretty well sums it up as does the last one.

Stepchild

quote:

Originally posted by stepchild 2:
Hot Core,
Sentence 5 in your previous post pretty well sums it up as does the last one.

Stepchild

are you referring to his analogy of those who think they are good shots, by "shooting AT" a bunch of prairie dogs.. this coming from a guy who has 'shot Thousands of Deer?", thereby making him the forum's foremost expert?

yeah I thought that was pretty funny also!

( Hot Core is my hero!)