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/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Every once in a while I read about some guy shooting through a tree or rail road rail or other non flesh target and proclaim the miracle bullet has been found. Years ago I had some armor piercing rounds for the 30-06 and tried to shoot rivets out of an abandoned bridge. The idea that this is a good test of a hunting bullet is absolutely ludicrous. It does however brand one as a complete rookie! I'm with Hot Core on this one. Did the truck spring leave a good blood trail?  | |||
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Pike are not real popular in a number of lakes around here either.But they’re protected in William’s Forks. Go figure. | |||
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Hey Vapo, I understand your frustration about the Rookie "totally missing the Point", just part of Rookiness. I'd encourage you to remove him from your Ignore List though, because you are sure to miss out on some VERY FUNNY Rookie Wisdom - like below. No doubt it would "Kill" a Deer, that of course has never been the question. Even when people are using Super Fragile Varmint Bullets on Deer, the tougher Expanding Solids, the Partitions or any other 22cal Bullet, that is not the question. That said, the Super Fragiles have great potential for Superficial Wounds which can provide a slow, lingering, Magot-infested, non-recovered, death. Sounds as if Stepchild is upset because someone disagreed with his VAST Deer Hunting(Rookie) Wisdom.  The real problem is "locating" the Deer after the shot. And to make it even a bit clearer, the total lack-of a Blood Trail often leads to non-recovered Deer. They are eventually found - by smell - either with a Dog, or if laying dead long enough you can smell them yourself "when Down Wind"(for the Rookies). And we have the ever present Rookie argument, "If you've never used a 22cal to Kill Deer, how can you know anything about it???" For those who stayed in school for a few years, and to use a play-on-words, it is similar to "The Law of Diminishing Returns".  Perhaps we need to let the Rookies go Google that and come back.----- But, of course it is "All About SHOT PLACEMENT" with a Truck Spring Bullet or a Skip-into a P-Dog Bullet and the great all knowing Rookies will eventually understand "if" they(attempt to) Kill enough. Otherwise, we will still see Stepchild Class posts from Rookies who try to ridicule people with their VAST Wisdom, and we know they simply don't have a clue.  | |||
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Because some of us have seen what happens when the .224 kill goes wrong, and it ain't pretty. | |||
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or worse yet.....shoots "Ackley Improved" rounds!!!! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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What a relief that is , cant want until "Hot Lips does the same. Did you run out of negative comments? Did you ever think about professional help? or AA, someone out there can probably offer some help. I'm sorry if the short bus comment offender you, just fly over to MBS and then you can defend your claims that my claims about my 257 Ackley were false, come on, I said i'd i'd pick ypu up at the airport, feed you, and take you back to the airport and pay your airfare both ways if my claims were not as claimed. Come on Dude, Shit or get off the pot! What NRA Life Member | |||
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 /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Hey Vapo, You missed nothing intelligent. | |||
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 .....no surprise to me!/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Sounds like a challenge....oh yeah Hotsh#t is the target, so nothing will happen. | |||
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And again, still nothing intelligent from teenscummie who "claims" he Kills Deer with Varmint Bullets at the highest Velocity he can possibly get.  Still pitiful and pathetic as always. | |||
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Well if anyone knows much about steel they will know the heat from the speed of the 223 is what melts the bullet thru so well. So sorry shooting steel is not an indicator of how well a bullet will work on game. Molon Labe New account for Jacobite | |||
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exactly/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Does that mean that you are not going to accept the challenge........????? And by the way I have shot "1,000's of Deer" with those Varmint bullets running hot. | |||
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That challenge is directed at me....not HotCore and I do not reply to idiots when it's known that they are! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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So you are not going to accept the challenge. Interesting. Why not have the funds put in a escrow account and prove your point??? Should be easy money ......Unless you are....... | |||
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I do not reply to idiots when it's known that they are! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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IF I had to shoot a deer with a 22 caliber it would be with the TBBC  definitely not the Ballistic Tip. The 53 gr TSX would not group for me less than 3". The 60 gr Hornady HP #2275 shot excellent with 38.5 gr H380 at 3555 fps The 62 gr Speer keyholed. Have not tried the Partition. Spend the money and get the TBBC, they will not let you down. ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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Heres you a smoking gun! I killed 27 deer last winter via depredation permit with a 204 with 40 grain Bergers. High shoulder shots droped them in their tracks as good as any rifle I've used. Of course some were shot in the head, neck, and ribs. They all died the same. I wouldn't hesitate to use the 22-250 especially if health suggested such. God Bless, Louis | |||
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didn't hot core say he shot a couple of hundred last year in the Carolinas with a 17 Fireball and a load of 2.5 grains of Blue Dot?  | |||
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I've heard many stories of folks using the .220 Swift for deer going back to the '60s when it was legal in Montana and every one of them was convinced that there was something magical about the old "Swift". I have a friend in the sandhills that still prefers his Swift for deer over any other rifle he owns. My personal experience with the .222 and smaller Texas deer has been quite positive.....DRT!!! There's quite a few folks that are convinced from their own experiences that the hi-speed .22s are fully adequate and more. I'm still going to use more bullet and a larger caliber but have very little use for larger than .24, .25, and .26 calibers. Those darn truck spring covered deer are running rampant here. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I guess I just don't understand the point of shooting deer with 224 bullets when there are so many better choices. If you are recoil shy, get a 243 or a 257 Roberts. | |||
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Agreed..... I hunt deer in Wisconsin almost every year and the law there allows any center fire rifle (but the .17 cal was nixed recently) and in almost 40 years of hunting there I've never seen anyone hunt with a .224 caliber rifle....not that they don't have them....they use something bigger. Point is:.....there's darn few folks using the .224 calibers and it's simply not worth the argument.....it might be different if every third hunter was carrying a .22 hornet and at the end of deer season we found hundreds of dead (from wounds) deer all over the place. This simply isn't the case and it's not worth the discussion it gets almost monthly here! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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 WOW! 4 pages on stunt shooting!  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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I've killed more deer with a 22LR than with anyother caliber...PERIOD!!!! BUT...Killing is not about caliber or case size...it is about bullet construction, placement, range, the hunters abilities and the laws of various states. There are as many acceptable bullets in .224 cal as there are in the other calibers...nitpiking aside...that will kill game up to the size of elephant...pick one, work up an accurate load and go hunting. No different than using any other caliber. Luck | |||
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When I was young and just starting to hunt deer I lived in a shotgun only state. I saw many deer hit well with 12 guage slugs travel a long ways and many lost. Maybe an indication that the size of the bullet is not the only thing involved in the deer killing equation. The first chance I had to hunt a rifle area(PA) I only had one rifle. A Remington in 22-250. I loaded some 70 grain Speer Round nose bullets at about 3200 as I recall and hunted 3 seasons in the Allegheny mountains. I fired 3 shots at deer and came home with 3 bucks. All dropped on their tracks. I thought I had the PERFECT deer rifle. I saw lots of deer shot with bigger calibers that did not die as quickly. I eventually aquired bigger rifles and do not shoot the 22-250 any longer but I did have that success with it and I still think that a good hunter and a good shot is well enough armed with 22 centerfire rifles to get the job done if he does his part. Of course it is not the best caliber for all types of hunting but it will work. And I don't argue with those who so choose. I would do it again and today there are many better bullet choices than there were in the late 60"s when that old 22=250 was my only choice. Because we could only use shotguns ( long arms) in my area of WNY I quickly graduated to hand guns as my go to choice for deer getting arms..I enjoyed that much more. I hunted strickly with handguns for 36 seasons in WNY and never felt under gunned. I still hunt with handguns a good bit but the old eyes and the steady hands are not what they used to be. I do have a couple of good deer rifles that I occasionlly use. My old 300 savage is a favorite. I have a single shot in 405 winchester that is a great deer killer and has never let me down. I have a Ruger 77 ultra lite in 250-3000 that is a joy to hunt with. All have made one shot kills EACH time I pulled the trigger...much like that old 22-250 did over 40 years ago. I was just lucky I guess. I guess some things never change EH! shortgun | |||
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What I find most entertaining is the fact that anywhere else on the web you can have an intelligent discussion on what are the most deer suitable .224" bullets for a given cartridge twist combo. EXCEPT HERE Here with laughable predictability 3 or 4 posters with an overinflated sense of self importance in lieu of a technical discussion based on actual experience are content to merely troll the thread into the ground as though it actually harms them in some manner for it to be here. You don't want to use 22 centerfires for deer then FINE, say so and then move the fuck on. Should take no more than one two line reply. NOW ON TOPIC I've used the 55 g Sierra gameking sp sucessfully and even at close range at high impact velocities seems to hold togeather quite well in spite of being an old fashioned cup and core bullet. ---------------------------------------- If you waste your time a talkin' to the people who don't listen To the things that you are sayin' who do you thinks gonna hear And if you should die explainin' how the thing they complain about Or the things they could be changing who do you thinks gonna care Waylon Jennings | |||
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Interesting comment and experience that you shared with us on the 22-250 and the handguns. I would love to hear more about your handgun experience on deer. Such as calibers, models of handguns and distances involved. Thanks. | |||
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Shortgun and I live fairly close, 45min drive away and we've hunted together quite a bit. I recall one year, we loaded some 64gr Win PP bullets in a 223 for an AR. Two does were taken that day with that rifle and load. The absolute total internal destruction of those bullet inside the deer were amazing. We gutted and examined those deer thoroughly. The shots were not perfect but were good shots. I would and do recommend using that bullet in a 223 for deer hunting as I have seen first hand what they will do. I believe, given a good bullet in the 22-250 you'll fill your tag easy. Good hunting. | |||
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I started handgun hunting with revolvers. First a .357 mag then .44 mag and 45 Colt and then a 41 mag. I have taken a few with auto loaders in 45 acp and 10mm. All worked at the ranges I used them and I never lost a deer to any of them. I did stretch the barrel on the 44 mag after I scoped it and it did fine out to 150 yards or so. I soon became enamored with contenders and have taken a bit over 200 head with them including wild hogs and an elk. A few Pronghorns and a mulie buck and a couple mulie does. One antelope in Wyoming was taken with a 7x30 Waters in a 14 inch contender at a round 260 yards and is my longest big game kill with a handgun. The ranch owner bet me I could not make the shot and it cost him the price of a days trespass fee. Probably my favorite straight wall pistol cartridge is the .45 win mag in a contender. I have several AI cases in both the contender and encore that are amoung my favorites. The most powerful contender chambering I have hunted with was my .358 JDJ a 444 marlin case necked down to 358. About 2500 FPS with a 180 gr slug. and 2300 or so with a 200 grain. I even used that one on some woodchucks and prarie dogs. Great fun. My current favorite contender is a 30-30AI that scoots a 150 NBT at 2350 FPS and has taken deer out to 200 pretty easy. I have an Encore in .300 savage that is unblooded as yet but hope to fix that this season. I have a contender in a 30-30 case necked up to 358 called the .35 Bullberry that has accounted for many deer in the 150 - 200 yard range and is only slightly less powerful than the 358JDJ. And I have a contender in 257 TCU that is an outstanding deer dropper. It is the .223 case necked up to .257 with a 40 degree AI style shoulder. And I had one in .223 Rem that has taken a few deer as well as has my encore in 22-250. My samples of deer killing with 22 center fires is I suppose quite limited..but I have never stopped a 22 caliber bullet inside a deer in any of those circumstances and if the OP is inclined to use that caliber for the reasons he stated I find no fault in his quest. If others do not wish to do so..it is their option and I feel the name calling is unwarrented. BTW the deer Blammer spoke of that were taken with the .223 AR where taken with my handloads by my neighbor and his landowner friend. Three does taken inside 150 yards on a bit of a culling operation on crop lands in close proximity to a houseing development where precision shooting and overpenetration were of some concern. AS was noise level. They made it work quite well and as blammer stated the autopsies showed extreme internal damage and the three deer never went more than a few feet. No blood trail was needed although there was blood every where and had it been necessary to track I don't think it would be much of an issue. YMMV shortgun | |||
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Gidday Guys, I am a little hesitant to drag this thread up again but for the naysayers here is the evidence of the effectiveness of 223s on deer in the right hands. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...CT8g&feature=related It is not stunt shooting but effective use of a great tool by experienced guys. Sorry but the proof is in the pudding. Happy Hunting Hamish | |||
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Haven't tried the Bear Claws at all, can't find these in Australia. Must say though, in deference to your injured shoulder and such, I can strongly recommend the 55 Sierra Boat Tail as well as the 63 grain Sierra Semi-Point. I've done some work with the 70 grain Speer which will stabilise in any fast 22 twist. Meaning no issue with a 22/250 or Swift. Speed around 3300 fps does great work and these penetrate and make a decent wound. I found the same thing with the two previously mentioned Sierras. The 63 grainer makes a bigger hole than the 55 grainer. I argue more lead, better the wound. Nosler Partitions are ok, I've used them on a myriad of game up to 250 lbs and it went well, but I only bought 50, spent about 20 working up a load and then shot the next 30 on game. Haven't tried the Barnes, the concept of a tiny X-Bullet seems odd to me. If asked to choose, pick the 63 grain Sierra and load to about 3450 fps - 3500 fps and you have all the power to get out to 200 + yards. Keep the range sane as you drop below 1000 foot pounds pretty quickly. | |||
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Gidday TEANCUM, There was some rapid head movement along with rapid body movement in a downward direction after the shot lol. I must add that this is not the way most Kiwis hunt, infact most are a bit upset by the chopper boys but it is a very effective management tool in the more rugged country. People tend to use the 223 on deer as a second choice when they come across deer while varminting after wallabies or goats. It is very capable in competent hands but most have a heavier calibre as a primary choice. Not all but most use 243 up but not too many feel undergunned with the 222 or 223. Yes suppressors are very popular here for health and safety reasons as well as recoil reduction and accuracy reasons. Also it can allow extra shots at mobs of goats and the taking of extra deer as they seem to have no idea where the shots are coming from. This is NOT the case with pigs as they are off when the first one hits the deck. Head and neck shots are prefered when meat hunting commercially or for the home table as it results in less blood shot meat. We are a frugal bunch and you would understand if your saw the prices we have to pay for firearms and related products. Happy Hunting Hamish | |||
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Thanks for the insight in your part of the world Hamish. It was very interesting. I make no judgments on the video, I saw some good hits, and missed shots and I have no idea from the video how many times he fired on any give animal. That kind of game shooting is what it is. Any reasonable person already knows a 22 can kill deer. Add a helicopter to the mix? You have one hell of a shooting gallery.  | |||
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Gidday Mick, There are a few misses but in going for headshots the misses are clean misses and the guys are extordinarily good shots. When they connect the results are spectacular. The helicopter is not an easy platform to shoot from I can assure you. You have the vibration of the machine to deal with along with the freezing cold wind and having to fight the slipsteam. You have a machine that is moving in upto 3 directions at once while shooting at a target which is also moving in the head but it is done more often than not. You now have an idea of how effective the 223 is against deer if you are good enough. These guys are professionals who shoot a hell of alot. They are after no meat loss hence headshots and the use of accurate light recoiling rifles. Me, I prefer the 260 or 30-06 as I am not worried about a bit of lost meat and are not restricted by the shot presented. Just a different perspective. Enjoy your hunting and don't spend to much time worrying about the fact that someone you will probably never meet does it a bit differently. You will be less stressed and consequently spend more years hunting instead of looking at the lid of a box unnecesarily. Happy Hunting Hamish | |||
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No doubt! A good pilot helps but there is still a lot of vibration to screw up a shot. Sorry about my last post, I just read it again and it sounds like I’m down playing the shooter’s skill when I was impressed with his skill. I should have proof read my post more closely. Hamish, helicopters are not cheap to operate so I would imagine this kind of culling comes with a fairly high price tag. Is the meat sold on the market? How does the cost of the helicopter effect the price or is the price subsidized by the government? | |||
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Gidday Mick, The helicopter operators must stand on their own and there is no subsidy when doing Wild Animal Recovery Operations (WARO). These guys have to shoot enough to pay for themselves and make a bit out of it. They do quite well when the price of venison is up and the fuel price is down. If the price of meat is down and fuel is up then they don't hunt unless the Department of Conservation (DOC) hires them to do search and destroy where the animals are shot and left where they fall. Also when there are fewer animals about you will find that the WARO guys tend to fly R22s rather than the Hughes 500 and 300s as they are much cheaper to run. There are definite advantages to the high price of oil as it keeps these guys down running tourists around and the deer come out of the bush and into the alpine areas where they are easier to find. As I said they are an effective management tool in the hard to access areas and without them the habitat would take a bit of a beating from over population. This does not negate the "Piss me off" factor when you have spent days walking into an area for a beastie and are in the final stages of a stalk when over the hill pops a kerosene cowboy and bangs your animal over in front of your eyes. This has happened to me only once but boy did the blood boil. The Waro boys are also renowned for straying over boundaries and taking deer from places they shouldn't as they are driven buy the need to cover costs and DOC are not that interested in enforcing the rules when it comes to helicopter operators. There are a couple of notable exceptions when it comes to playing by the rules but the majority are a bit unscrupulous. Check with the Kiwis on the board if you want to avoid being taken for a ride whedn booking hunts here. Sorry if I sounded a bit short, I wasn't having a go at you. There are some on here who have a habit of throwing out personal insults in a manner unbecoming of gentlemen and my comments were directed at them. Hope you guys have a great season as we are just heading into spring hunting which is one of the best times for filling the freezer and I will be out with the 30-06 this week to do just that. Should I be after a goat with the 222 and a silly spiker put his head in the way I shall ensure he gets a big snooze in my freezer, no worries Have a good time guys, Happy Hunting Hamish | |||
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