Hey, John, did you ever try those Barrier bullets I sent you on deer? roger

Seafire,
No, I was refering to the "it's all about the shot placement line and some of us with extremely poor shooting ability will just never understand" and the keyboard commando part seems to fit as well.

Stepchild

As they say, some things one can't un-remember.

So, here's a few things I can't un-remember. That nice buck on the farm in GA that some SH shot and wounded in the shoulder with a 22 hornet Handi Rifle.

My buddy in Texas with his brand new gift from his son AR 223, which would shoot tiny groups. The afternoon on the big deer stand together, and the doe and mostly grown fawn at about 200 yds. The perfect unhurried neck shot with a good rest, doe down, flopping for 15 minutes, then still. We waited until almost dark, and when we went to fetch her with the electric buggy, she had staggered into the woods, never to be seen again.

The conclusions I reached admittedly were already predisposed because of other experiences too numerous to mention.

But I also learned that along with an accurate rifle, and ability to shoot it well, other factors involved in that fieasco were classic overconfidence, ego, inability to listen to reason, and finally denial. I can't explain it another way. He still hunts deer with that peashooter, and swears by it.

I was talking with a friend who I work with a few months ago who uses an AR 223 for the little Sitka deer around here. He has several boys who also use the same type rifle. He says they have killed "tons" of deer with them. I beleive him, but here's the kicker - apparantly we were both thinking the same thing at the same time, because as an afterthought, he said that they have never had any problems with a brown bear, but he said something like there's 20 rounds to deal with it. I found that revealing somewhat of the mentality of those who favor the 223 for deer and such. The ultimate varmint shooter's dream - brown bear with a varmint cartridge, died at the 20th shot between the eyes at five feet, full charge of course.

Also, I can't un-remember the ones hit but got away. This is something that I've come to believe that those who hunt deer with a 223 have little or no problem with, not because it doesn't happen, but because of selective memory, or an excuse of circumstance. I well remember the last two that got away, but neither involved a 223. One was a nice butchering size hog that I hit too low with a 123gr bullet from a 7.62x39, and the other was a nice doe hit with a lead Buffalo Bore bullet from a 480 Ruger. The doe was hit in the right spot, but the bullet didn't open at all. Since then both guns are long gone. I haven't had that problem for at least two years. Not that it couldn't happen, but I think my odds have improved by using cartridges like the 308, 7x57, 6.5x55, 280, etc.

KB

Kabluewy, where either of those guys using a 60gr Nosler Partition, or a similar modern bullet?

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Hey, John, did you ever try those Barrier bullets I sent you on deer? roger

Roger,

actually they were loaded up for that service, but an opportunity never presented itself..

however, a friend of a friend's wife, was having trouble with a cougar sneaking in and killing some of her sheep and a couple of LLamas at night...

so a 223 and those bullets were loaned to her, and she managed to plug a 3 year old Cougar that got into her barn one morning with one..

she shot it from out her dining room window as I was told.... one shot dropped the cougar on the spot...

One of the biggest deer I ever lost was hit in the chest with a 300 Win Mag, Federal Factory Ammo with a 200 grain Sierra SP bullet at 100 yds...

so does that mean it is inadequate? NO

was the shot placement bad? NO...

the deer didn't drop instantly because at that distance, the bullet was traveling fast enough and the bullet hard enough, it penciled right thru the deer...and never opened up...

the deer hit the snow right on its nose... got up and ran head first into the swamp it had been heading to....

there was a 2 foot radius of blood and fur where it had been hit...

someone's failure doesn't make something a bad cartridge... but when it is a small bullet, the "failure" is amplified ten fold.. and if it works, it is rebuffed just as a lucky shot...

Seafire,
along the same lines,i'd been to Wyoming, filled out incuding a spike Elk, when I got home a guy who I worked with decided he wanted a deer so we went out with my rifle a 722 Remington/ 257AI and found a victim at around 300 yards, at the shot you could hear the splat of the strike. I shot the deer through the hinds while holding on the lungs,I caught hell over that shot until the next morning when I shot a 100yard target, the bullet hit a foot left. The rifle had been in a hard case on the Wyoming trip and shot to point of aim, someone probably stepped on it? Anyway back to the deer, the bullet hit the femoral artery and the deer dropped on the spot with a seemingly non vital hit. This guy who used a 300WM said that he'd shot deer and had them run 150 yards or more with a chest hit and you shoot one in the ass and it drops, he was impressed enough that he bought a 25/06 the following week.
I've noticed that most Michigan deer hunters use bullets that are heavy for caliber and usually have some tracking to do. I guess they figure the heavier the bullet the harder they hit.
When I was using a 30/06 I used 150gr. for deer and most times they dropped on the spot.
I once used 130HP's(30/06) on a Wyoming trip with excellent results but that's another story for another time.
And then there was the Whitetail vs 17 Remington story, the deer lost, lung shot with a 25gr.Hornady

Stepchild

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
Kabluewy, where either of those guys using a 60gr Nosler Partition, or a similar modern bullet?

No

The thing is that I don't even hang out with guys that shoot deer with a 223, unless they have some other redeeming qualities, such as my buddy in Texas, and the friend that I work with has a boat. I don't know you guys well enough to figure that out. I normally give the benefit of the doubt, but you have one strike against you already - advocacy of the 223 on deer.

I suppose I should look at it more positive. There's nothing I can do or say that's gonna make any difference anyway, so at least some of you guys are talking about premium and heavy 223 bullets. That's an important distinction, IMO, because setting this kind of example isn't good for those who don't know or don't care.

I consider the 223 cartridge the epitomy of an idiot's or cheapskates deer cartridge, which is sometimes used by those who can sometimes avoid its pitfalls, through skill, and restraint, and respecting limitations. For me though, it's often rather difficult to sort out the idiots from others, and I regard guys with 223s very suspect. I didn't read all the posts, but I don't recall much talk about limiting range, and shots. If you have to make neck and head shot to be effective that's a clue that the cartridge ain't up to the task. At least with the 308, there's a choice in shot placment, including neck and head shots.

If all I had was a 223 rifle, and I wanted to go deer hunting, I have little doubt of being successful. Fortunately I have a choice, and don't even own a 223, and see no need for one. The only thing I see that's good about it is that it's cheap to shoot. There's hundreds of pieces of 223 brass at the range going to waste.

KB

The .223 wastes so much meat, I prefer the 22 LR where legal.

quote:

I've noticed that most Michigan deer hunters use bullets that are heavy for caliber and usually have some tracking to do. I guess they figure the heavier the bullet the harder they hit.

Stepchild, I believe you are right. Keep you velocity around 3k+ an you will have a lot less tracking.

KB, by and large, I'm with you on .224 calibers and deer. I've seen two mule deer shot 20+ times with either a 222 or 223. Not pretty. Either one would of die on either the first or second shot from a .270 Win and any 130gr bullet. Since then I had pretty much written of the .224 for deer, but neither of the above two examples were with a good modern bullet.

Recently I tested the 60gr Nosler partions out of my AR in water filled gallon milk jugs. The bullet was perfectly expaned, and caught in the 9th jug. I plan to test it again, just to make sure it wasn't a fluke, but that is some serious penetration for a .224 bullet. This test has moved me to think it could be reasonable with the right bullet, but I don't think the .224's will every be able to compete with a .270 Win and a 130gr NBT when come to slaying deer.

Let me throw out some facts that helped me in bullet and caliber selection. General consensus is that a Nosler Partion loses 40% of it's weight as it travels through an deer sized animal. That number can very depending on impact velocity, ie. 257 Roberts vs 257AI at same yardage. Most would consider a .257 loaded with a 120gr NP ample for deer.
120gr x 40% = 48gr loss
120gr - 48gr = 72gr bullet left after nose is shed.
72gr bullet inside the deer
The NP sheds it's weight as it travels through the deer, with in the first 4-6"s on this bullet (larger/heavier NP's will obviously penetrate deeper in this section). Keep in mind we are talking deer, thin skinned light muscled, relatively speaking. A 72gr bullet will have no problem breaking ribs/shoulders exiting, we have all seen it on deer shot with our NP's out of .243's - .264's. No magic bullet there just physics.
70gr all copper bullet that sheds no weight, expands 2x with in 1.5 inches, then exits. No problem on deer sized game. Again, no magic bullet, simple physics.

Perry

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kabluewy:
... For me though, it's often rather difficult to sort out the idiots from others...

********************************************

I understand your dilemma. Seems like there are many who criticize without knowledge.... Oh well.

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
I like the 40g and 50g Nosler BT's in the .224 for deer and also 55g in the .243. DRT

Accuracy has been outstanding and after shooting around 400-700 rounds per year with these loads they are very familiar and accurate.

I know ridiculous when I read it. In your case there's not much sorting needed.

KB

This should put this thread to sleep.
A couple years ago I shot a 1/2" truck spring leaf just to see what would happen. What happened impressed me, to say the least!
I was shooting my 22/250 Ackley Very Much Improved with Sierra's 55gr. #1360 Varmint bullet @3,998 and it lazered the spring, going in around 38 caliber and exiting around 45!
The point is, if this bullet will lazer a truck spring a deer doesn't stand a chance. Comments welcome.

Stepchild

quote:

The point is, if this bullet will lazer a truck spring a deer doesn't stand a chance. Comments welcome.

I fully agree......a lot of deer (in recent years) have adapted truck springs as armor and you really need something to get through that!

Did the "Truck Spring" leave a good Blood Trail???

Remember, it is all about Shot Placement!

If you can "Accidentally Skip" a Bullet into a P-Dog, then NOTHING else matters at all. Having enough actual Horsepower(Adequate Cartridge) doesn't mean spit when Skipping Bullets into Deer or through Truck Springs. Might as well make an argument for shooting through Green Trees, which has been done on this Board in the past as a Benchmark of Performance.

I should have specified, inteligent comments welcome.

Stepchild

quote:

Originally posted by stepchild 2:
I should have specified, inteligent comments welcome.

Stepchild

When you equate shooting through truck springs to killing deer you can expect equally intelligent answers.

I recently used the 63 gr SEI on a yote at 134 yards out of my AR 5.56 mm and it stayed together ! Nice caliber hole in and a.75" hole out -one DRT yote!

Hey! I once shot a 218 Bee through(in and out)a German helmet. Nobody's head was in it. That must count for something. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
Hey! I once shot a 218 Bee through(in and out)a German helmet. Nobody's head was in it. That must count for something. roger

great....then it's good for deer.....eh?.....

Kansas law for deer requires larger than .224. I'm not saying a 22/250 or 223 wouldn't do the trick.

Well, a 55gr FMJ will shoot though the current issue kevlar helmets. Does that mean it's a good Elk round?

quote:

vapodog

When are you going to change out the dead fish avatar picture?

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

quote:

vapodog

When are you going to change out the dead fish avatar picture?

That "so called" dead fish is a 32" walleye that was released on a Canadian lake.....

I do change avatars occasionally but I still like this fish for now!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

quote:

vapodog

When are you going to change out the dead fish avatar picture?

That "so called" dead fish is a 32" walleye that was released on a Canadian lake.....

I do change avatars occasionally but I still like this fish for now!

Sorry, but I’m so damn jealous of that fish.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
Sorry, but I’m so damn jealous of that fish.

Does this one help?



A northern Pike of 43 1/4" and also released in a Canadian lake!

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

quote:

vapodog

When are you going to change out the dead fish avatar picture?

right after he catches that 150# halibut.roger

"Keyboard Commandos = Pitiful and Pathetic!"

I resemble that remark...nuck...nuck...nuck...but I prefer to be called "armchair Bwana".

In fact, I think I'll amend my signature line.

test...much better. I feel more powerful already. Let me know if any of you need hunting advice.

Hey Scott, What is The Great Armchair Bwana preference when "Hunting" Truck Springs?

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

Strange lookin' Truck Spring. What kind of Truck does that one fit on?
-----

BTW, my buddy Ralph has totally had it with all the "Catch and Release" foolishness. He has his wife making us some shirts(she has some of them computer driven sewing machines) that has a picture of a Fish overfilling a Frying Pan with the caption "Release in Grease".

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Scott, What is The Great Armchair Bwana preference when "Hunting" Truck Springs?

The great bwana always prefers TSX for truck springs. I've had good luck using partitions for deer hiding behind water jugs.

quote:

Originally posted by stepchild 2:
This should put this thread to sleep.
A couple years ago I shot a 1/2" truck spring leaf just to see what would happen. What happened impressed me, to say the least!
I was shooting my 22/250 Ackley Very Much Improved with Sierra's 55gr. #1360 Varmint bullet @3,998 and it lazered the spring, going in around 38 caliber and exiting around 45!
The point is, if this bullet will lazer a truck spring a deer doesn't stand a chance. Comments welcome.

Stepchild

poor bastard, I knew what was coming

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
I like the 40g and 50g Nosler BT's in the .224 for deer and also 55g in the .243. DRT

Accuracy has been outstanding and after shooting around 400-700 rounds per year with these loads they are very familiar and accurate.

I know ridiculous when I read it. In your case there's not much sorting needed.

KB

In your case I see how confused you must be over experience and facts. Perhaps more study on the issue would be helpful for you......want a sec that won't work either.....Oh well carry on.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
Sorry, but I’m so damn jealous of that fish.

Does this one help?



A northern Pike of 43 1/4" and also released in a Canadian lake!

Vapodog, you’re killing me! Nice fish, I’m glad you left it there to get bigger.

Anyone dumb enough to think that a bullet tough enough to lazer a 1/2" truck spring leaf and not enough bullet to kill a deer is dilusional or rode the short bus or both.
VD in a previous post you said you have used the Sierra #1360 on Texas deer with good results and now you post a responce about deer wearing armor, I would have expected something like this from hot lips but I expected better from you. Hot Lips asks if I had to blood trail the truck spring, how ignorant is that? Happy Hour perhaps?
Anyone of normal intelligance can read through this. I've been killing deer with .224 bullets for years and will continue to do so.

Stepchild

Ps The flight thing is still open

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by vapodog:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MickinColo:
Vapodog, you’re killing me! Nice fish, I’m glad you left it there to get bigger.

If he turned that thing loose in some lakes in Alaska or the Yukon someone might string him up. roger

quote:

Anyone dumb enough to think that a bullet tough enough to lazer a 1/2" truck spring leaf and not enough bullet to kill a deer is dilusional or rode the short bus or both.

Is this a self description?.....welcome to my ignore list.....what a dork!